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  1. #1

    Default Mimelim's Guide: Defense

    Background
    I boast a relatively low defensive ranking in W1. One could argue that I have less experience than the average player defending my villages. To counter this, I can honestly say that I've watched teamates defend and when I attack, I see how players defend their villages. I've seen the best players defend against unbelievable odds, and have learned in my opinion how to defend effectively and efficiently.

  2. #2

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    Introduction
    First, what is the objective of defending? For me, the objective of defending my villages is to slow down an opponent until I can resume the offensive. In the long run, you can NOT defend and win this game. The best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate, and who wants THAT as the best thing that can happen? By defending effectively and efficiently, you maximize your potential to strike back and make gains offesnsively. Threats do not disapear by defending correctly, they only abate when you show agression and your opponent backs off or you make offensive gains toward them.

    Like offense, there are three levels of defense in tribalwars. Village level defense, player level defense and tribe level defense. Unlike offense however, the area of focus is at the player level defense. I will examine in detail each of these levels, focusing on the player level defense.


    Village level defense
    As a relatively advanced player, you should know that there are three primary defensive units in this game. Spears, Swords and Heavy Cavalry (hcav). Just a brief recap just so that everyone is on the same page. Spears defend primarily against cavalry, swords and hcav defend primarily against axemen. I advocate the even defense strategy, that is having an equal number of cavalry and axemen defense. There are strong arguements for a lopsided defense and it IS highly situationally dependant.

    Village Structures:
    10k/10k Spears/Swords Split
    This is by far the most efficient setup in terms of farm space. There are two downsides however. First, it takes a very long time to build. To be exact, with a lvl 25 barracks it will take 45 days to build, in this game, that is a long time. Secondly, moving troops around is slow. When villages are clustered together this isn't a big deal, but the further apart villages are, the more problematic this becomes.

    8k/2k Spears/hcav Optimized Defense
    This is a highly popular model of defense. Essentially, you sacrifice 20% of your troop effectiveness in exchange for a faster build time and faster movement. In contrast to the 10k/10k split, this configuration only takes 17 days to build. This is a THIRD of the time required to build the first configuration.

    What should you use?
    As a default, I strongly encourage players to use the 8k/2k spears/hcav as a default. Besides the reasons I gave above, it is simply easier to rebuild your defenses after an attack with it. After an attack, being able to re-build your defense 3 times faster is a huge advantage. It is virtually impossible to realistically re-build a 10k/10k defense when fighting good players, you just don't get that much time to recover. There is however a place for the 10k/10k defense. For long term support, or other instances where you just need a village stacked, the 20% fighting effectiveness proves useful, just don't lose those troops or you will have a village completely out of commission.

    I strongly caution against deviating from these two standards. I have seen people mix spear/swords/hcav. While I can sort of understand the mentality that a hybrid village can fulfill both situations, in reality, you are much better off choosing one method per village and sticking with it. There are very few instances where the hybrid army will be better than one of the more pure forms of defense. Hybrid villages also make thinking through your defense much more complicated, something that you don't want to do when you have 50-2000 attacks incoming.


    Player level Defense
    There are two primary ways of defending your villages effectively and efficiently. Both are extremely effective, but can prove disasterous if use improperly. Which system you use depends on your answer to this question: Can I hold off my opponent through defensive strength alone? This does NOT mean, "Can I destroy my oppenent's offense?" Offensive troops build much faster than defensive troops, so the concept of troop preservation should be paramount. If the answer is yes to the above question, then your method should be Stack. If your answer is no, then your method should be Dodge/Snipe.

    Stack Defense
    This is a pretty simple tactic to explain and use. Simply put, you put as many troops as you can in a village before an attack lands. The more troops you can put into a village, the more you minimize your troop losses. A W1 player named Undo stated that it wasn't worth defending a village with less than 30k/30k worth of spears/swords or the spear/hcav equivolent. While this is a decent guideline, depending on what world you are on/what your situation is, this number could vary from 10k/10k to 200k/200k (I've personally seen both of those extremes in the past 3 months). Essentially, you are trying to kill enough of your opponent's offense so that you can re-build your defense quicker than they can re-build their offense. This tactic works well when you know an attack is coming, or it is launched from a long distance.

    Dodge/Snipe Defense
    The only way that you lose a village is by your opponent nobling it. Lets face it, resources in a village are cheap, walls are cheap. Losing an army or a village is not cheap, both in terms of resources and time. Preserving those two, an army/village are the important things. Many times when you get attacked from close range, or when you are caught low on defense, it is impossible to effectively stack your villages.

    The first step is to clean your village. Minimize your losses. Remove your troops before an incoming attack. Send your resources to one of your other villages. What do you lose by doing this? You lose your wall and you lose any remaining resources in the village, small price if this allows you to stop the attack. Very few players disguise their nobles effectively. First, nobles have a distinct time signature because no unit travels at the same speed as the noble. Secondly, most people use noble trains, four nobles sent in quick succession from a single village. By identifying incoming nobles, you can pick out the attacks that you MUST defend against. Beyond this, remember that you can take up to 3 noble hits before you lose the village.

    You can't escort a noble with more than one army, and rarely do people escort with more than a handful of troops. By preserving your troops from full armies, you give yourself a chance to take out noble trains. This is obviously a temporary fix since your opponent can simply resend their armies and nobles later, but it buys you time, time that you can use to find defensive troops (yours or teamates) to stack your village with.

    A slight adaptation of the noble snipe is quite possibly one of the most effective ways to stop an attack. Instead of trying to stop your opponent from taking your village, you help him. The single biggest bottleneck offensively are the number of nobles available. Killing a noble costs your opponent 1 bundle. Allowing your opponent to take your village and taking the village back costs your opponent the full cost of that noble (anywhere from 1 to several hundred bundles). Usually, what you will do is clear out your village and just before their noble train arrives hit the village with your own nobles, lowering the loyalty as close to zero as possible without taking it (usually 3 nobles). Then, timing a noble to land just after your opponent's noble train. By doing this, you will use one noble to re-take the village, but hopefully this will cost your opponent up to four FULL nobles. For a large player, this could be a couple thousand bundles worth of resources wasted.

    There are obvious disadvantages to this strategy. First off, you waste a noble, in other words its costly. Second, you lose any troops that you have from that village, so it is usually best to do this with a village that has already lost its troops (like an offensive village that you have just attacked with.)

    Overall Defense
    Ideally, when defending, you should be using a combination of all of these tactics to hurt your opponent enough so that they will stop attacking. The key here is defend in full, or don't defend at all. Do NOT spread your troops out thin.

    By forcing your opponent to take army and noble losses, you force them to delay any further attacks on you by several days or several weeks, depending on how effective your strategies are. I can't stress enough how playing effective defense is not enough. Once again, all you are doing is delaying your opponent. The only way to really secure yourself against them is to go on the offensive against them.

  3. #3

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    Tribe Level Defense
    I've heard it said many times, "I'm a defensive player". In this game, there is no such thing as a successful defensive player outside of extremely strong, highly organized and structured tribes. The only tribe that has implemented what I'm going to cite is T:V (to my knowledge) and was pioneered by me.

    It is highly inefficient to dodge/snipe between accounts in this game, it is really only a player level tactic, not a tribe level tactic. Thus, the primary function of the tribe should be to stack vulnerable villages that are essential to holding. This is again, the all or none philosophy. When you defend a village, defend it strong. I never support someone unless I can ensure that at least 20k/20k worth of defense will be in that village. If there isn't, either I don't send support or I send the full 20k/20k myself.

    Who should be supporting? Anyone who is not under attack or is unlikely to be attacked. Caution is good in this game, but there is a limit. Long ranged attacks can easily be sniped, so what is the point in keeping excessive ammounts of defense in untouchable villages. Typically, at any given moment, I have 90% of my defense out defending other people that I know are likely to be attacked today. Of course there is always a reserve number of troops, just in case something unexpected happens, but in my experience, you can predict which villages are likely to come under serious attack, and which ones aren't. The key for a tribe is cordinating the movement of troops from their strong points to their borders with enemy tribes.

    To me, a teamate or an ally losing a village is as big a problem as ME losing a village. First off, it hurts the tribe's interested, but also, more selfishly, teamates losing villages puts you in a more dangerous position. I have zero qualms losing troops in teamate's villages instead of my own. The fact that my teamates know this also means that if I need support anywhere, they will do what they can to help me quickly, no matter how much defense I need. It is simply good business to protect the interests of the tribe as a whole.

  4. #4
    blocked
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    nice :D

  5. #5

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    Very good summary - I always called sniping "spiking" coming from the old term to spike someones guns or cannons - but it's good to have an official term.

    I think the tribes that have that admirable support philosophy will do well - but that requires an extremely well organised tribe and a level of selflessness I have yet to experience in this game.

  6. #6

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    another quality tutorial. coming from me it probably doesnt mean much when i say this defensive tutorial is good because as every playing worth mentioning in this game knows i'm an all O player, but none the less, this tutorial is very good.

    i am just glad you left out some of the more advanced defense techniques lol.

  7. #7

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    One good offensive tactic to keep in mind to combat something he brought up here.

    Since so much of his defense is always off supporting other people, sending fakes to the village he's assuming are "low-risk" will limit the ammount he's willing to send off to the front lines.

    The main point is to fake everything, not just villages near the villages you are taking.

    (Throwing in occasional real attacks are good too if they begin to ignore the fakes )

  8. #8

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    Good job, I like this one. Very well written, valid points, and gives people different options to think about and consider!

    /me sets his hole poking stick down
    -Only the dead have seen the end of war-
    -12355 is the new 1337-
    www.twsyndicate.com/Droganus.htm

  9. #9

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    My head is still spinning for all the iron I gonna need now..

  10. #10

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    Sorry, but this guide only covers mere basics and it puts you to some serious risks if you follow it to the letter, without truely understanding defense.

    I'll post some topics that should be covered:
    Crossdefense and Timing defense in general
    Renaming of attacks (fake and name change protection)
    Counter of rally point destruction
    Regaining attacks
    Attacking yourself with nobles
    Efficiency of defense stacks against one full army (take wall into consideration)

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamm View Post
    Sorry, but this guide only covers mere basics and it puts you to some serious risks if you follow it to the letter, without truely understanding defense.

    I'll post some topics that should be covered:
    Crossdefense and Timing defense in general
    Renaming of attacks (fake and name change protection)
    Counter of rally point destruction
    Regaining attacks
    Attacking yourself with nobles
    Efficiency of defense stacks against one full army (take wall into consideration)
    Wow, just plain wow, READ BEFORE YOU POST. This is a GUIDE, it covers basics, why would anyone follow it to the letter.

    I don't know what crossdefense or timing defense is. I come from a world where you couldn't rename attacks and did everything by pencil and paper. We discussed rally point destruction. I don't know what "regaining attacks" means. I tlaked about attacking yourself with nobles (seriously, do you read or just troll?) Why would someone take the time to detail exactly how many troops you need against a particular army. Every player has access to the simulator and the more troops you stack, the less you lose, ergo you stack as much as you can. Seriously, if you are trying to be nitpicky, maybe you should READ. If you are trying to troll, just go away.
    Last edited by Mimelim : 2007,November 12th at 16:14

  12. #12

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    Go get him Mimelim.

  13. #13
    Thargoran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimelim View Post
    Wow, just plain wow, READ BEFORE YOU POST. This is a GUIDE, it covers basics, why would anyone follow it to the letter.

    I don't know what crossdefense or timing defense is. I come from a world where you couldn't rename attacks and did everything by pencil and paper. We discussed rally point destruction. I don't know what "regaining attacks" means. I tlaked about attacking yourself with nobles (seriously, do you read or just troll?) Why would someone take the time to detail exactly how many troops you need against a particular army. Every player has access to the simulator and the more troops you stack, the less you lose, ergo you stack as much as you can. Seriously, if you are trying to be nitpicky, maybe you should READ. If you are trying to troll, just go away.
    Try to look beyond your own nose, Mimelim. Just being a moderator in a small forum's part, doesn't really mean, that you know much about this game. Nor does the fact help, that you probably played one of TW's biggest or first accounts ever.

    I bet, there are quite a LOT of players, that rather would listen to Jamm's ideas of any strategy than yours. Get over it, your guidelines may be good for some inexperienced players, but no way for the smart "big account" players, that you are targetting at with your guides.

    BTW: Crossdefending and timed defense are basics in this game.
    Last edited by Thargoran : 2007,November 12th at 18:11

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thargoran View Post
    Try to look beyond your own nose, Mimelim. Just being a moderator in a small forum's part, doesn't really mean, that you know much about this game. Nor does the fact help, that you probably played one of TW's biggest or first accounts ever.

    I bet, there are quite a LOT of players, that rather would listen to Jamm's ideas of any strategy than yours. Get over it, your guidelines may be good for some inexperienced players, but no way for the smart "big account" players, that you are targetting at with your guides.

    BTW: Crossdefending and timed defense are basics in this game.
    Hey look who is generalizing. Where did I bring up being a moderator anywhere? Where did I claim that that gave me any clout in this game? I can only go by what I've seen, which is from W1 where I watched TW/T:V crush the world systematically. I have watched dozens of large players get demolished not knowing anything about what I have posted. I have invited reasoned discussion of these points, all you can do is respond with "I'm so much better than you, but I can't spend the time to show any types of credentials or argue anything so I'll just devolve to personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimelim View Post
    Hey look who is generalizing. Where did I bring up being a moderator anywhere? Where did I claim that that gave me any clout in this game? I can only go by what I've seen, which is from W1 where I watched TW/T:V crush the world systematically. I have watched dozens of large players get demolished not knowing anything about what I have posted. I have invited reasoned discussion of these points, all you can do is respond with "I'm so much better than you, but I can't spend the time to show any types of credentials or argue anything so I'll just devolve to personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic.
    so you are admitting that you are infact inexperienced in the matter?

    and that this is a beginners guide...

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thargoran View Post
    Try to look beyond your own nose, Mimelim. Just being a moderator in a small forum's part, doesn't really mean, that you know much about this game. Nor does the fact help, that you probably played one of TW's biggest or first accounts ever.

    I bet, there are quite a LOT of players, that rather would listen to Jamm's ideas of any strategy than yours. Get over it, your guidelines may be good for some inexperienced players, but no way for the smart "big account" players, that you are targetting at with your guides.

    BTW: Crossdefending and timed defense are basics in this game.
    Beyond this, my criticism of jamm was that he didn't read what was posted. Either you don't think that that is important, or you so blindly support him that you don't notice these things.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter-man View Post
    so you are admitting that you are infact inexperienced in the matter?

    and that this is a beginners guide...
    I don't follow. I think that I am a fairly experienced player that has played this game for over a year and has made a relatively large mark in W1, perhaps not with my account, but with my organization over several continents. I fail to see how I have indicated otherwise. Did YOU read the posts before you posted? I never claimed being a mod had anything to do with this or that it gave me any clout on this issue, as I already stated, which was Thar's primary complaint, which had nothing to do with anything here.

    This is a guide for larger players who are inexperienced with actually fighting other people, which goes for 95%+ of the people in W1, which I extrapolated to mean that most people that play this game would not think about these things, which I think is a reasonable approximation.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter-man View Post
    so you are admitting that you are infact inexperienced in the matter?

    and that this is a beginners guide...
    that being said, it is a good beginners guide, especially if you were to include the things which Jamm included.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter-man View Post
    that being said, it is a good beginners guide, especially if you were to include the things which Jamm included.
    So you admit that you didn't read my post and don't see any issues with what Jamm posted? Or are you just a fanboy of jamm...

  20. #20
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    Well Thargoran and Jamm have more experience than all of us combined

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