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  1. #1

    Default Analysis of Defense Options

    I'd promised my tribe I'd write up an analysis of the different defensive options, and now that it's done, I felt like I should share it. This is a long post, and I encourage you to read each and every part of it. If you have constructive criticism, I'd love to hear it.

    Each defensive village assumes a 20,000 population size available for troops. This is sufficient to show my intent.

    Base build time:
    Spear: 1:19 = 79 seconds
    Sword: 1:56 = 116 seconds
    HC: 6:14 = 374 seconds

    a) 10k/10k spear/sword, lvl 3/3 - Standard
    General Defense: 910,000
    Cavalry Defense: 980,000
    Time to build: 1,950,000 seconds = 32,500 minutes


    b) 7k/7k/1k spear/sword/hc, lvl 3/3/3,-Hybrid 1 rams lvl 1
    General Defense: 917000 --> 100.7% of a)
    Cavalry Defense: 798,000 --> 81% of a)
    Time to build: 1,365,000 seconds = 22,750 minutes
    --------b.1) 7k/1k spear/hc, lvl 3/3
    --------General Defense: 427,000
    --------Cavalry Defense: 553,000

    c) 7k/7k/1k lvl 3/2/2,-Hybrid 2 rams lvl 2
    General Defense: 838,000 --> 92% of a)
    Cavalry Defense: 758,000 --> 77% of a)
    Time to build: 1,365,000 = 22,750 minutes
    --------c.1) 7k/1k spear/hc, lvl 3,2
    --------General Defense: 397,000
    --------Cavalry Defense: 541,000

    d) 8k/2k spear/HC, spear/HC
    General Defense: 728,000 --> 80% of a), 79% of b), 86% of c)
    Cavalry Defense: 728,000 --> 74% of a), 91% of b), 96% of c)
    Time to build: 748,000 seconds = 12,466.7 minutes

    Analysis

    First off, there are several interesting things of note when you look at the different defense options.

    Comparison: a) and b)
    Build b) shaves off about 10,000 minutes of build time, which is a hefty amount. What are the payoffs? Surprisingly, you actually gain a slight amount of General Defense. However, percentage wise, it is rather insignificant. The main pay off is you lose Cavalry Defense (b) is only 81% as effective as build a) in this regard). In addition, build b) is slightly more flexibly, as it employs a fair number of HC, gaining a little bit more mobility.

    However, thought your defense villages will be able to supply these research levels with no problem, you will have to sacrifice a research level in your offense villages to be able to have this defensive arrangement. The only likely one would be rams, dropping you from lvl 2 rams to lvl 1

    Comparision: c) to b), with respect to a)
    If you're not one of the people who wants to have a weaker nuke just so that you can have full research levels in every village, build c) would be the research levels you take in your offensive villages. Upon inspection, you will notice the General Defense of c) is 92% of a) while the Cavalry Defense of c) is 77% of a).

    You have still shaved off about 10,000 minutes of build time. It is slightly weaker then b), but provides you with a slightly stronger nuke.

    Comparison: d) to everything else
    Finally, we get to the build I've been trying to sell. First off, you'll notice that it shaves another 10,000 minutes off of a). It is almost twice as fast to build as b) and c), and approaches 3 times as fast to build as a).

    Now looking at the relative strengths. First off, when you compare cavalry defense of the 8k/2k spear/hc, you'll notice it is almost as strong as any of the hybrids. However, what you lose from changing from a Hybrid to pure spear/hc is General Defense. The 8k/2k is 80% as effective as a straight up 10k/10k, and 79% as effective as the stronger of the two hybrids.

    Quick Summary.
    The hybrid loses out on Cavalry Defense vs the Standard defense while gaining increased build time. The spear/HC has a comparable Cavalry Defense to the Hybrid, but loses out on General Defense to the Standard and Hybrid (80% as effective as standard, and 79% as effective as Hybrid, a comparable loss in General Defense), all the while, shaving off even more time.

    Final (and Selling) point
    So far however, this post has only gone into the relative strengths of the ratios, and has not taken into consideration one other crucial advantage the spears/HC has over any of the other defense options: movement speed.

    To fully understand this, I'm going to go into a bit of geometry. Take the scenario that a village is under attack and you need to draw support from nearby villages. The attack is incoming in X minutes, and so you can only draw support from villages that are less then or equal to X minutes away. The border of the area that fulfills this constraint is a circle (all points in a plane at a constant distance, called the radius, from a fixed point, called the center), with the center being the village under attack.

    The time of the incoming attack will be directly proportional to the distance from the villages on the outermost edge of that "circle" of villages that can get support to the one being attacked. Time is therefore proportional to the radius.

    The area of the circle corresponds to the number of all villages able to get support to the village under attack under the time constraints. The formula for the area of a circle is A=pi*r^2

    What does this mean in terms of tribal wars? It means as the max distance from the village under attack to villages that are able to provide support (radius) increases, the total number of villages able to provide support exponentially increases.

    In terms of tribal wars, the faster your defense can move, the more defense you can stack in a single village, minimizing losses. Time is therefore a limiting factor. We can eliminate a), the Standard Defense, because it fails this miserably. Both its time to build and time to move are abysmal.

    The hybrid defense improves upon the time factor of the Standard defense, building 10,000 minutes faster, and employing a number of HC able to provide support to a village. However, it still contains 7,000 swords, and this becomes a problem. While it takes longer to build, it also simultaneously slows down the speed of your support. Depending upon the length of time you have until an attack hits, you may not be able to send the swords with the rest of your support, it would have to arrive after. This significantly diminishes the strength of your defense. You move from a General Defense of 917000 and a Cavalry Defense: 798,000 to a General Defense of 427,000 and a Cavalry Defense of 553,000. Not as impressive looking as before.

    The spear/HC defense on the other hand is more likely to be able to get its full defense power as support to a village before an attack lands.

    Very last (I promise) point/comparison
    With all this being said, it seems beneficial to compare the Hybrid with Spear/HC one last time, taking into consideration the movement speed.

    Remember that the only two things significantly different between these 2 builds were the following:
    1) spear/HC builds about 10,000 minutes faster
    2) spear/HC is only 80% as effective in General Defense as the Hybrid (Cavalry defense is highly comparable, and as stacking increases, this difference diminishes to 0 faster).

    Looking at this, one notices one important factor. The only thing spear/HC really lacks is the General Defense contained by the Hybrid. Guess what, Heavy Cavalry provides General Defense! By employing a much larger number of Heavy Cavalry then the hybrid, the chances that you can draw support from another village even further away increases.

    Remember, there are several layers of defense that can be sent. The hybrid can send a full D from villages close by (7k spears, 7k swords, 1k HC), a half D from villages slightly farther away (7k spears, 1k HC), and a fractional D (1k HC) from villages extremely far away). Spears/HC on the other hand can send a full D from villages close by (8k/2k), a full D from villages slightly farther away (8k/2k), and a half D from villages extremely far away (2k HC).

    By employing a larger number of HC, you can draw MORE support from further differences, and since it is HC, it provides a greater proportion of General Defense, which is the only thing that the Spears/HC lacked that the Hybrid had. (The small fraction of Cavalry Defense that the Hybrid had over the Spears/HC is further minimized by the small amount of Cavalry D provided by the HC).

    This specific difference between hybrid and spears/hc is then evened out, and spears/hc are still left with the advantage of building almost twice as fast as the hybrid.

    Also, remember that you have the full defense capabilities of the spear/HC after 12,466 minutes of building. At this point in time, the Hybrid will have only slightly more then half of the defensive power. The Hybrid's defense doesn't surpass the defense offered by spears/HC until around 18,000 minutes (this is a guesstimate, I'm tired of writing).

    Conclusion
    So basically, when you're in a war heavy environment and are being attacked, you may not have the time to even build a full farms worth of D. Each individual hybrid village will have LOWER total defense then spears/HC simply because of the time taken to build. Spears/HC contains all of the advantages of time, and can make up any slight difference in defense power through manipulation of the additional time you have at your disposal to build troops and send them.

    ___

    As a note, I've never used a hybrid before, and there are all types of variations. For this analysis, I had just taken the first hybrid build one of my tribemates had posted. However, my end conclusion still remains the same. The mathematical comparisons I had made between the spear/HC and the hybrid build could change depending on if you went for a more spear heavy hybrid build in an attempt to balance the defense more (which would be a better hybrid build in my eyes), yet the maneuverability of spears/HC still makes it superior in my eyes.

    --Researched and written by qwe4rty
    Last edited by qwe4rty : 2008,April 2nd at 00:31

  2. #2

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    Cool stuff , always love to see detailed analysis of this kind of stuff!

  3. #3
    lippa's Avatar
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    Good post.
    Retired.
    W1 :- Best Rank 4, Highest ODA Ranking 3rd
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  4. #4

    Default

    One main flaw with your "selling point" is that when defending, in most cases, the factor is not the number of villages that can send support before the attack arrives but the number of villages that can afford to send their support out during that timeframe. If you're only being attacked at one or two villages it really doesn't matter if you can stack 100k/100k or 50k/50k, as both work well enough for the purpose of a few attacks.

    That said, the other advantagous are significant, and the above point does come into play sometimes, but just not to the degree that you make it seem.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by servy View Post
    One main flaw with your "selling point" is that when defending, in most cases, the factor is not the number of villages that can send support before the attack arrives but the number of villages that can afford to send their support out during that timeframe. If you're only being attacked at one or two villages it really doesn't matter if you can stack 100k/100k or 50k/50k, as both work well enough for the purpose of a few attacks.

    That said, the other advantagous are significant, and the above point does come into play sometimes, but just not to the degree that you make it seem.
    Though, that applies to any defensive ratio you use, and sp/hc would most likely have the highest number of villages that could, simply due to the movement speed arriving at the village and being sent back home.

    Good point though.

  6. #6

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    you failed to take into account paladins. with the standard defense and a paladin it can travel faster than your hc/spear. however it does take almost 3X to build...but if you have the time then it is well worth it...also you can only have one paladin...

    so basically i have a paladin with a standard defense for one of my defensive vills (one that has the time and income to create such a defense). the rest replace swords with hcs (at a ratio of 4 swords for 1 hc because an hc is almost exactly the same as 4 swords). and there you have it. a fast and strongish defense.

  7. #7

    Default

    I like the details given for time to build and comparative defensive powers, I feel it's much better at helping convince people to the appropriate defense, whatever it is . I feel though, that resources should also be looked at briefly.
    Traditional
    10k/10k -> 800k 600k 800k
    Hybrid
    7k/7k/1k -> 760k 570k 1160k
    HC/Spear
    8k/2k -> 800k 540k 1280k

    The point of this, is to point out just how much more iron comparative to the other resources you need the higher hc concentration you have. I'm aware there are plenty of arguments that explain why this is fine, but it's still something that ought to be mentioned on this topic
    :O

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narsis View Post
    you failed to take into account paladins. with the standard defense and a paladin it can travel faster than your hc/spear. however it does take almost 3X to build...but if you have the time then it is well worth it...also you can only have one paladin...

    so basically i have a paladin with a standard defense for one of my defensive vills (one that has the time and income to create such a defense). the rest replace swords with hcs (at a ratio of 4 swords for 1 hc because an hc is almost exactly the same as 4 swords). and there you have it. a fast and strongish defense.
    He wrote this strictly for a world with tech levels, so he never bothered to consider the paladin when writing it. I also feel that newer world settings make the hc/spear defense less affective, but I don't think the 1 paladin means anything. He can after all only be in one village
    :O

  9. #9

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    Ya, I think that this is more useful when you have several villages than when you have 1 village.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by lardingd View Post
    He wrote this strictly for a world with tech levels, so he never bothered to consider the paladin when writing it. I also feel that newer world settings make the hc/spear defense less affective, but I don't think the 1 paladin means anything. He can after all only be in one village
    oh right my bad...

    and why would it be less effective on new worlds?

    and the one paladin means a lot...especially with the pally weaps...

    he can give the one defensive army he's with a major boost in fighting power.

    and the scout weapon makes him and your scouts almost invincible

    and the ram/cat weapons double their respective powers

    trust me...he means a lot...

    but you are right...he was talking about old worlds so again my bad...

  11. #11

    Default

    Well this thread seems to be targeted at people with a reasonable amount of fully built villages. Now, once you get over 10 villages in a new world (small amount), you will need multiple offenses, and should you really need to defend, a paladin takes too long to change villages to be useful against even poorly coordinated serious attacks on multiple villages. As for attacks, you get a nice boost to a clearing force or a scouting force, but once you have multiple offenses, you'll pretty much just throw him somewhere. All this at 10 villages. the later the game the more insignificant he becomes. Though I'll grant the paladin has a much longer time span of use then he used to.
    :O

  12. #12
    Muldie325's Avatar
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    Also narsis, on newer worlds there are also archers to consider.
    Last edited by Muldie325 : 2008,April 2nd at 08:44

  13. #13

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    good reasoning, but ...

    10k spears 10k swords sux as a basic setup
    compare it a standard bash and you should find out that you need more spear than swords


    That said it's up to the game version (combat system and units available). But I believe this thread is directed to old combat system and no archer
    Help keep each World different!

  14. #14

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    What happens if you put in 6.5k/1.5k/2k sp/sw/HC?

    Some more combos would be nice if you have some spare time

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldhor View Post
    good reasoning, but ...

    10k spears 10k swords sux as a basic setup
    compare it a standard bash and you should find out that you need more spear than swords


    That said it's up to the game version (combat system and units available). But I believe this thread is directed to old combat system and no archer
    10k/10k sucks mainly because of its abnormally large build time. As well, most people I know will actually build more swords then spears, not the other way around because axes are more efficient offense per farm space then LC. Many nukes are axe heavy.

    @ matty, I'll see if I can get around to it soon, but its going to be basically the same as the hybrid I have posted with a few numbers changed around.

  16. #16

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    8k spears
    1750 hc
    200 cata


    builds 26 hours less than d) but loses a small amount of D


    to keep it fair go 187.5 on catas to round it to 20k villagers
    Last edited by twoshadetod : 2008,April 8th at 23:37

  17. #17

    Default

    Good info, Thanks!

  18. #18

    Default

    you may also want to analyse the HC only build

    here are its stats:

    HC (3363.1666666666666666666666666667):

    attack 504474.9999999999999999999999999

    general defence: 672633.3333333333333333333333332

    calvalry defence: 269053.33333333333333333333333328

    archer defence: 605369.99999999999999999999999988

    haul 168158.3333333333333333333333333

    HC (with paladin):

    attack: 655817.5

    general defence: 807160.8

    calvalry defence: 322864.8

    archer defence: 726444

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charwinger21 View Post
    you may also want to analyse the HC only build

    here are its stats:

    HC (3363.1666666666666666666666666667):

    attack 504474.9999999999999999999999999

    general defence: 672633.3333333333333333333333332

    calvalry defence: 269053.33333333333333333333333328

    archer defence: 605369.99999999999999999999999988

    haul 168158.3333333333333333333333333

    HC (with paladin):

    attack: 655817.5

    general defence: 807160.8

    calvalry defence: 322864.8

    archer defence: 726444
    takes too long to build
    too much iron use
    Fear is a reflex.
    Confidence is a choice.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies. View Post
    takes too long to build
    too much iron use
    i know, but might as well compare it to the other ones so that noobs will know not to use it.

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