What are the best nukes on an archer & paladin & non-church world?

DeletedUser

Guest
Basically I'd like to discuss the thread title.

What are the best nukes and troop builds to use? I'll show what my tribe has come up with so far. We aren't a highly ranked tribe, so I would like input from players in better tribes and experienced players who have at least a few worlds under their belt.

When developing these nukes I took into account mostly build speed and tried to match the barracks and stable build speeds by adjusting troop amounts. That maximizes troops per hour per village. My ideal village is 9714 points and uses 3270 population leaving 20730 farm space for troops. That's another discussion for ideal village size.

Offensive nukes:
Mine:
20720 axes 1 paladin: use with paladin item 40% boost to axes population 20730
build time: 67:01:19:27
33% barrack village: 51:15:10:47


5180 light cavalry, 1 paladin: 30% LC boost item population 20730
build time: 33:15:36:52
33% stable village: 25:21:51:47

4144 mounted archers, 1 paladin: 30% MA boost item population 20730
build time: 26:22:05:30
33% stable village: 20:17:29:26


6130 axe, 2560 light cav, 100 scout, 500 mounted archers, 250 ram, 4 nobles, 1 paladin. 20730 population
build time: 14:13:14:19


6446 axe, 1231 light cavalry, 100 scout, 1500 mounted archers, 250 rams, 4 nobles, 1 paladin 20730 population
build time: 15:07:09:06

Other tribe members:
7000 axe, 200 scouts, 2750 Lt Cav, 250 rams and 50 cats 20050 population
Build time: 16:18:52:18

Defensive nukes:
Mine:2590 catapults 1 paladin: use with bonfire weapon defense 20730 population
Build time(level 2 workshop): 128:02:47:41
level 15: 60:01:35:01

level 2 50% boost: 64:01:23:50
level 15 50% boost: 30:00:47:30

3 sword, 6393 archer, 2389 heavy cavalry 20730 population
build time: 20:16:44:20

9120 spear, 3 sword, 25 scouts, 1926 heavy cavalry 20730 population
build time: 16:17:40:35

Tribe members:


7000spear, 7000 sword, 7000 archer 21000 population
build time: 54:08:51:25
with 33% barracks village: 41:20:44:24


7000 spear, 2000 heavy cavalry 19000 population
build time: 17:07:45:37


Mixed nukes:
Tribe members:

(tribe member said late game people just build these to get semi decent offense and defense.
3455 heavy cavalry 20730 population
built time: 29:22:13:34

What are your overall opinions on each of these nukes? What is the best? What type of defense do you go up against most often in archer and non-archer worlds. What are some other nuke builds that you think are better than the ones here? Are any builds faster(I optimized around this so I would be surprised if there was one)?
Is there any validity to what my tribe member said about late game people only using HC?
 

Muldie325

Guest
Good evening.

This is a long question on a somewhat complicated subject so bear with me.

I think the best place to start is to explain how the combat system works in archer worlds. When you attack someone in an archer world, your attacking army is divided up into groups based on type of attack - infantry, cavalry and archer. Then the defending army is broken up into groups in proportions equal to the attack power of each of your attacking groups. E.g. if your attacking army had 25% of its strength in infantry and 75% of its strength in cavalry then 25% of the defending army would fight against your infantry, and 75% would fight against your cavalry. Unlike the attacking army, the defenders aren't divided up by type, if the defending army is 50% spears and 50% swords, then the group that fights against your infantry will be 50% spears and 50% swords too, even though it would be better for them to be 100% swords.

Because of this, there is almost always a best unit type to be attacking with. Ignoring resource costs and build times (we'll get to those later), we can work out what each defending army is weakest against, by comparing its defensive power ratios with the power per population ratios of the 3 main attacking units - axes, LC and MA. Axes have 40, LC 130/4 = 32.5, and MA 120/5 = 24. So to be perfectly balanced vs each attacking unit type based only on population, your defence would be 40/96.5 (41.45%) Infantry D, 32/96.5 (33.68%) Cavalry D and 24/96.5 (24.88%) Archer D.

An army of 7000 spears 7000 swords and 7000 archers is 41.07% Infantry D - pretty close, 35.71% Cavalry D - too much, 23.21% Archer D - too little.

Simulation results as evidence that I'm not just talking out of my ass:
b3fc3f48acf33be448b8150f00732595.png


If your opponent was using only 1 D build, then it would be possible to calculate the most efficient nukes in terms of population or resources, and these nukes would ALWAYS be pure axes, pure LC, or pure MA (ignoring rams for now).

However building a pure axe, LC or MA nuke will never be the fastest. A pure axe nuke would take about 3 times as long to build as a hybrid nuke, and that means that to be pumping out the same amount of offensive power you would need 3 times as many O villages as you otherwise would. So somebody who had 100 villages, may need 45 of them to be O, rather than 15. That's a huge cost to you in terms of safety. 85 D villages is a LOT better than 55.

You could however build nukes that always built axes, and then either built only MA or only LC from the stables, and then you would have just two types of nuke to choose from and you could always pick the better one for each opponent. However that means that while you are fighting an opponent that was weak to one of your nukes you would be incentivised to leave the other ones at home, and that's not ideal. You don't want full nukes sitting at home not attacking, because then you again need to have more O villages to be producing the same amount of O power.

This is why generally some mix of LC and MA with your axes is best. Unfortunately, as it depends on your specific situation and what your opponents are building I can't give you a "perfect" nuke here. However I can assure you that as long as you are building quick build nukes and using them (for productive purposes) as soon as they're built rather than letting them sit idle, you're doing it right, and whether you built a few hundred more MA or LC is rather negligible.

As for rams, if you are clearing a village in a single attack in the early game, there is no reason to build more than 213. However as soon as you are using more than one nuke to clear a village, it's actually better to have the first nuke you send have as many rams as you can build while building axes/lc/ma until the village is full. 700-800 rams even.. I know that sounds overkill, but it's actually legit. Though explaining that one is worth a whole thread on its own.

"Is there any validity to what my tribe member said about late game people only using HC?" - Nope. Unless you mean do people actually do it.. in which case.. yes.. but those people are idiots. HC are incredibly inefficient units that fill one specific role - building you D quickly when you're desperate. While their movement speed is an advantage, it is not one that is necessary for a well built account. The ability to use them to attack AND defend does not justify them, as you actually lose defensive strength overall due to having to make more of your villages O vills to compensate for their lack of attack power.

.... I don't know how to end my post..

...

[spoil]
Melissa%20Giraldo%201920X1200%2039484_2.jpg


That'll do it.[/spoil]
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
So by your argument of the most efficient defensive nuke is evenly split I just have to solve the following system of equations:
sp+sw+a = 20730
15sp+50sw+50a = .4145D
45sp+15sw+40a = .3368D
20sp+40sw+5a = .2488D

sp = 6480.1, sw = 8147.5, a = 6102.4, d =953427

You didn't answer my specific question about what type of defense you typically see in a world. While the above nuke would be ideal for an even distribution of offensive troops, you don't normally see that. On the other hand, depending on the distribution of defensive troops typically seen, you could optimize your offensive nukes as well.

You can see in my first post that I took build time into account. Ideally the best defensive or offensive nuke will finish building in the barracks and stable at the same time. I'll try to optimize a nuke that balances each defense type while using the stable and barracks equally.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
Solving the system:
s+w+a+6h=20730
15s+50w+50a+200h=.4145D
45s+15w+40a+80h=.3368D
20s+40w+5a+180h=.2488D
158.45s+233.01w+279.61a=B
748.37h=B

Where B is build time, D is total defense, s,w,a,and h are spear, sword, archer, and heavy cavalry
Based on level 25 barracks and level 20 stable in a speed 1 world.

s=3769
w=-2567
a=6026
h=2250
d=1639451
B=1684045

Any people good at math out there who can tell me the best way so solve this? The problem is I don't want any of the troop numbers to be negative but If I simple remove swords from the system, I get an over-defined system with 6 equations and 5 unknowns.

I already know I can eliminate one equation and 1 unknown by making one equation:
158.45s+233.01w+279.61a = 748.37h

That doesn't solve the problem though. I think the inherent problem is it is impossible to make a balanced nuke while also maximizing its building speed by making the barracks and stable finish at the same time. Any ideas for making an "ideal" defensive nuke?
 
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Muldie325

Guest
Hi again.

I couldn't tell you what a typical archer world defense you would see is, as it tends to vary a lot, and I have very little actual experience in late game archer worlds.

An evenly split defense would be most powerful against a single attack or a single wave. However in a long drawn out battle where your opponents are rebuilding their nukes multiple times, the most powerful defense would take into consideration the build time of the opponents nukes - less weight on the general defense as axemen take a lot longer to produce power than cavalry.. HOWEVER.. due to the nature of defense villages this may not be a good idea.

Unlike O villages, build times in defense villages are usually not very significant. This is because you can stack D. Done right, the defending player usually shouldn't take as many casualties as the attacker, and his losses are spread out across a lot of D villages, significantly reducing your rebuild time. Unless you are the target of a large OP, your D vills will mostly sit at 24,000/24,000 in the late game. Supposing you are the target of a large OP and in desperate need of D, then you just build HC and spears - build time becomes everything. However those situations are very rare.

Since D vills mostly sit at 24,000/24,000 making changes to your ratio of troops for a specific situation is not necessarily a good idea, as it would take a long time to return the ratio to its original state, during which time you may be more vulnerable than if you had never changed in the first place.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
I think you are on the right track. To be honest, most nukes will vary depending on the player. Archer worlds are trickier, adding in more variables but you still won't go too wrong with standard nukes unless your opponents are stacking quite a few archers. If I remember correctly, the general consensus in an earlier discussion was that MA are virtually useless unless you KNOW that your opponent has a decent amount of archers.
 
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