15 Tech

DeletedUser

Guest
So this is going to be a 15 tech limit world which is my favorite.

Was wondering how people's D and O villages' tech would look like and why. (With special interest on HC and Ram tech levels)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I do

3 spears 3 swords 3 scouts 3 hc 3 cats for def

3 spears 3 swords 3 axe 1 scout 2 LC 2 ram 1 cat for Off personally.

Im sure there are maybe some setups better then this, but this is what I used back on older worlds, and its what Ill use here too :) Its worked for me in the past, so I dont see a reason to change it. Most will know, but I still keep spear and swords up in off so if Im supported I can get the max out of my support troops. (correct me if Im wrong, the only number that matters for support is the level of the tech in the village being supported)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Thanks for sharing.

Yes support troops use the host's tech levels. Even your own support troops from different villages.
With that in mind, in your build if you train some HC at your D villages and send them to support your O villages, they won't fight at level 3. You'll need HC fully researched in O villages too if you plan to use them.
 

mattcurr

Guest
3 sw, 3 sp, 3 sc, 3 cats, 2 ram

3 sw, 3 sp, 3 ax, 3 lc, 2 ram
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Nah, ram tech levels were just put in the game as a joke to confuse noobs

I don't have access to a simulator on a 15 tech world. But found someone who did back in w19:

um...has anyone actually ran the simulator on the difference between having lvl 2 and lvl 3 rams??

Let's say they have 10K Sp/10K SW and lvl 20 wall, just for kicks.

Let's say you attack with, IDK 8K axe 2.5K LC and 250 RAMS

with lvl 2 RAMS the results are you lose all your troops and they lose:
5417 SP/5417 Sw and the wall is dropped to lvl 12


with lvl 3 RAMS the results are you lose all your troops and they lose:
5417 SP/5417 Sw and the wall is dropped to lvl 12


A second offense of the exact same size comes in to finish things off and clears the defense completely knocking the wall all the way down to 0.

with lvl 2 RAMS you lose
3686 axe, 1152 LC, and 115 RAMS



with lvl 3 RAMS you lose
3685 axe, 1152 LC, and 115 RAMS


Yep, those lvl 3 RAMS saved you 1 entire axe out of 2 full offenses.

So I ran the numbers at 30K SP/SW and came out with nearly identical outcomes. Then again at 50K SP/SW, each time the savings was at 1 or 0 axe men by using lvl 3 RAMS over lvl 2 RAMS.

The only real difference is they have about a 12% increase in defensive value.

So, will someone explain to me the advantage of going with lvl 3 RAMS??

Edit:

Oh and I use:
3 Spear
1 Sword
3 Axe
0 Scout
3 LC
3 HC
2 Ram
0 Cat

In most of my villages, that way I can quickly switch from defense to offense or vica versa. I also develop scout/Cat/HC villages for obviously scouting, and catting the hell out of people that bother me.

Now this information might be outdated and it might no longer be true these days, but at least at some point in history, it actually really was just a joke to confuse noobs.
 

twenty-five

Guest
Firstly that post is one scenario, using it to make an argument about the general ability of rams is a fallacy. Ram levels do have an effect, for that look at cheeses's excellent guide on rams and read the various formulas (which whenever I've used them have been correct).

From what I can tell, ram levels are mainly useful in wall breakers vs high stacks. So no they aren't overly useful but neither are they a joke, in some circumstances they will save you troops. I wouldn't say it's worth spending a tech on if you have another use for it (e.g. if you use HC strategy for whatever reason) but if you have a free tech it doesn't hurt. The tech levels do however only affect the final lowering of the wall (and ram's negligible attack strength), and not the reduction of the wall bonus pre-battle.

Ram tech levels, not useful but not completely redundant.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Now this information might be outdated and it might no longer be true these days, but at least at some point in history, it actually really was just a joke to confuse noobs.

I wasn't being as sarcastic as you seem to think I was, I actually did mean to say that upgrading ram tech is wasteful.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Firstly that post is one scenario, using it to make an argument about the general ability of rams is a fallacy. Ram levels do have an effect, for that look at cheeses's excellent guide on rams and read the various formulas (which whenever I've used them have been correct).

Not exactly just one scenario as that post mentioned 3 different sizes and stacks. But yeah it did not take into account a wall-breaker nuke in which the ram levels might make a more visible difference. (Or might not. Would be nice if someone could clarify. With evidence.)

As for Cheese's ram guide, while I greatly appreciate his efforts and hold a lot of respect for him, I don't think those formulas could help us much in determining the usefulness of ram levels; I made an spreadsheet using his formulas and tested a few scenarios. In many cases, the calculated 'levels downgraded' value was negative which made me doubt the formulas. For example 400 rams, 100 of them remain alive, attacker wins, wall level 20. Formula says rams at level 1 will downgrade the wall by -4 levels. And by -5 levels with rams level 2.

It can be concluded that upgrading rams from level 1 to 2 is more important than upgrading them from level 2 to 3. But how exactly and to what extend ram levels matter is not exactly that clear to me. I do however agree that it will probably make a more impressing impact in wall-breaker nukes where there are significantly more rams present than in normal attacking cases.
---------------------------------
Personally I do use HC instead of swords unless my tribe is against it. Much much faster build time and travels much faster which usually results in bigger stacks from multiple villages -> on par with swords in strength -> tends to spread the losses across more D villages -> it'll be faster to recover from. Also sometimes makes it possible to support a tribemate where swords might not have been able to make it in time.

Speed 1.2, max rax and stable lvls, you can make a:
Code:
Full Sp/Sw defense 1:1 ratio in ~39 days. (~1.9 mil total defense strength. Balanced.)
Full Sp/Sw defense 1:3 ratio in ~43 days. (~2.0 mil total defense strength. Twice as much general defense as cav defense.)
Full Sp/Sw defense 3:1 ratio in ~35 days. (~1.7 mil total defense strength. Twice as much cav defense as general defense.)
Full Sp/Hc defense 24/7 busy in ~14 days. (~1.6 mil total defense strength. Balanced.)
In the time it takes to make a Sp/Sw defense once, you can make a little less than 3 full Sp/Hc defenses.
The small loss in strength can easily be neglected in my opinion because of the ability to draft more support from further D villages or tribemates to the front lines in time.

Thus my preference for tech levels are something like this unless I am obliged to go swords too because everyone in the tribe is doing so:

[spoil]Defense:
3 Spear
1 Sword
3 HCav
3 Scout
3 Cat
2 Ram

Offense:
3 Spears
1 Swords
3 HCav
3 LCav
3 Axe
2 Ram
Feel the need for cats/scouts? -> level 1 -> make some -> level 0[/spoil]
 

twenty-five

Guest
Send me the spreadsheet, you have me on skype so I'll have a look (already pm'd you actually). I think your spreadsheet might be wrong but it's been a while since I used the formulas. Ok 3 scenarios all using the same nuke! It's still straight up inconclusive. World 109 on the German server should be helpful to you for testing! Honestly it clearly isn't useless but I agree it's not useful in your average circumstance, as I said take or leave the ram tech.

Anyway some evidence of a circumstance where it is useful (tip: you want the level 2 to lower to an odd wall, and the level 3 to an even wall so the follow up nuke hits with a lower wall after pre-battle reduction)

Level 3:
[spoil]
7772c0540310ca9514a1c57a2f777a26.png


99515f1bbdeed67ae4e2e26de06aedd2.png
[/spoil]

Level 2:
[spoil]

bad119c883042a9b46dc43b61349fd16.png


6b464541a646e45a1530e4f396e03ba8.png

[/spoil]

The rest of the post I don't care for the HC argument had it too many times before! I'm not sure if you were trying to convince me but considering I told you I didn't care for the discussion, I hope not as that would be annoying!

Everything you say I've heard before, it's why I had a HC phase. The main reason for switching back is that the build speed is often (all but the worst case pretty much) a non-factor, and then the expensive nature most certainly comes into play. I believe it doesn't matter if your tribe builds a sensible D ratio, but that is a whole of other topic of discussion and one I'd much rather be a part of (although off topic here). Whatever you reply I probably won't bother with, these things tend to go in circles. :icon_neutral:

I just realized I used HC nukes by mistake, well that's annoying -- the logic of the point I was trying to make stands however! If lower ram level knocks to odd wall level and higher ram level knocks to an even (or that there is a clear difference of 2 or more levels between the two), because of how the wall bonus works, the next fight will benefit the attacker. That is pretty much it.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
The HC talk was not pointed at you. Just thought I'd also include my own preferred builds when asking other people to post theirs. :icon_wink:
--------------------------------- <- This is here to keep the HC talk separate from Rams. :D
Well, I finally got my hands on a suitable simulator to test some stuff. Kudos to twenty-five for directing me to w109 of the German server which has the 15 tech setting.

It seems that in normal situations when you are attacking with your normal everyday nukes, ram levels rarely make much of a difference if any at all. The main situation where tech levels start to matter is in wall-breaker nukes as suspected; The sheer number of rams used in such situations finally makes those ram tech levels prove useful.. Sometimes. Here is an example:

Sending 5k Axes, 2.9k LCav and 800 Rams against a 20k/20k Spear/Sword combination behind a level 20 wall will result in:
Code:
Wall downgraded to level 14, Using level 1 rams.
Wall downgraded to level 13, Using level 2 rams.
Wall downgraded to level 12, Using level 3 rams.

Also as twenty-five said, knocking the wall to an even number matters a lot due to how wall bonus works. In this example, the wall bonus after knocking the wall using level 1 and level 2 rams would be the same as level 13 wall has the same wall bonus as level 14. But with rams at level 3, the next fight will be easier because level 12 wall provides less bonus defense than level 14 does.

It seems that just like we suspected, higher level rams do their jobs better in situations where there are a lot more rams involved but rarely make that much difference on normal nuke situations.
 
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twenty-five

Guest
Yeah level 2 and 3 rams should probably be the last one you do, I mean it is not helpful at all until you are using multiple nukes, and then not always! As I said before, doesn't hurt to have but hardly going to kill you if you decide you need the tech for something else (scout/cat/hc). By the time it has an effect, the effect it has isn't substantial enough to really matter long-term.
 

MR.MR

Guest
You need scout level 2 in your offense villages during peace time to run C button in FA, otherwise it wont see buildings and will consider the village always empty once you drain them.
 

mattcurr

Guest
You need scout level 2 in your offense villages during peace time to run C button in FA, otherwise it wont see buildings and will consider the village always empty once you drain them.

And you NEED to c farm?
 

Rank 1 Is Standard

Guest
Spears should be level 2 and rest of the techs should stay at 1. Spending resources on techs is not worth it. A lot of people make this mistake, your better of spending those extra resources for coins instead.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Spears should be level 2 and rest of the techs should stay at 1. Spending resources on techs is not worth it. A lot of people make this mistake, your better of spending those extra resources for coins instead.

Simply not true. There comes a point where the cumulative bonus gained from researching a tech level makes the troops more effective than recruiting additional troops before the tech is upgraded, and that point is well before one hits population max.

Of course, all things should be judged on a case-by-case basis. People forget how to be flexible.
 

DeletedUser112257

Guest
If you use only hc and rams you can have all of your villages be defense and offense villages, and save a lot of res because you only need to upgrade 2 units!

Would ofc be worth researching lc for farming in start up though!
 
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