Aletheia's Bonfire

Badlapje

Guest
true, but the same holds true for someone who get's vasco's scepter from early on. It helps a lot to get people nobled out fast which is a huge advantage early on as well. And a similar case can be argued for Mieszko's lance or Thorgards Battle Axe.
 

Emation

Guest
The bonfire isnt really that great i can see it's a good weapon to get early as then you can defend your village better as you can build in 3 buildings, although tbh apart from that i see no great advantage, a defense of 10.5k sp/sw or 6k sp/sw/ar and 400 HC can fend off alot more nukes then that lil trick you do with the catapult. Overall i velieve it isnt worth it as the Cat takes up more pop space than swords/spears which i'd rarhter have in a defence.
 

Badlapje

Guest
not entirely true bout the 10.5ksp/sw and such though. You have to compare that to 2400 cats ;)
 

Dwarven King

Contributing Poster
Well, ofcourse if I have a noble train on each of my villages, which means I'm being gangbanged, then I won't stand a chance. Not even using Bonfire correctly. But your defense wouldn't do any better in that situation, no defense could.

They main point is attrition. Using Bonfire you are sure to lose less than your opponent, however you look at it. Using other items will also give you such a boost, but that boost is nowhere near the effectiveness of the Bonfire.

If you ask veteran players, with millions of points and alot of wars under their belt, then a 1:1 ratio of swords and archers isn't the best defense. It might be best in theory or on paper, but its not best in reality. The main reason is that most people will use LC heavy nukes. The second reason is that it takes alot longer to build.

Also, if you are faced with two choices of players to go up against. You know one has bonfire and builds catapults along with all the other troops, the other doesn't have bonfire. They are equally active and skilled. Their villages are essentially equal in build and points. Which one would you go after?
Actually, it would do better. How? Well lets see here. In your simulations, you lost nearly all your troops, your paladin, and lost between 9 to 11 levels on your wall. In my simuliations, I still had about half my original troops (if not more), did not use a single paladin, and lost no more than 5 levels. Now tell me, how is my defense not better? If all my defensive villages were attacked, I would have enough left over to hold off more attacks while I wait for support and recruit more troops. You on the other hand would have pretty much nothing, not even the Bonfire, leaving you completely open.

Ask a multimillion point player, eh? Guess what, it was a multimillion point player that got me to start using the 1:1 sword and archer ratio. The only difference is that I tweaked my village set up so as to recruit more troops that he told me was possible.

Which would I pick? Simple, the one with the bonfire. Why? Because he/she would be easier. True, the village with the bonfire would sestroy my nuke, but he/she would still lose pretty much all their defenses like you showed in your simulations AND there other villages would be rendered useless against my other nukes that would be hitting at the same time because they didn't have the binfire. ;)
 

Ridz 13

Guest
Arghhh its a bin fire!!!

'True, the village with the bonfire would sestroy my nuke, but he/she would still lose pretty much all their defenses like you showed in your simulations AND there other villages would be rendered useless against my other nukes that would be hitting at the same time because they didn't have the binfire. ;) '
 

csiz

Guest
I don't have the energy for this anymore lol. You guys can think what you want.
 

chapuis

Guest
i agree with you csiz. Completely out of line with the other weapons.
 

Dwarven King

Contributing Poster
Arghhh its a bin fire!!!

'True, the village with the bonfire would sestroy my nuke, but he/she would still lose pretty much all their defenses like you showed in your simulations AND there other villages would be rendered useless against my other nukes that would be hitting at the same time because they didn't have the binfire. ;) '
Finally! Someone sees the light!
 

k9burn

Guest
csiz's argument is true in the early stages of this game...but like many said before, the effectiveness of the bonfire dwindles as players/tribes get much larger.

csiz also states that you could build catapults in many villages to take advantage of the bonfire. He seems to forget that catapults have a long travel time. Coordinating many catapults to defend in a single village (for a bonfire party) is not realistic.

It is much more useful to dedicate one village to pure catapults for this purpose. Catapults travel much faster with a paladin...
 

Ougthesmartone

Guest
csiz's argument is true in the early stages of this game...but like many said before, the effectiveness of the bonfire dwindles as players/tribes get much larger.

csiz also states that you could build catapults in many villages to take advantage of the bonfire. He seems to forget that catapults have a long travel time. Coordinating many catapults to defend in a single village (for a bonfire party) is not realistic.

It is much more useful to dedicate one village to pure catapults for this purpose. Catapults travel much faster with a paladin...
One village with pure cats is a good idea. However, a good tribe can use these villages and their paladins to defend more than one village at once, or can super-defend one. This is made even more useful since there is the fake-limit set upon this world. The enemy can no longer spam as many fakes from the same village to the degree of success seen on other worlds. Any fake in w30 takes an insignificant amount of units, but stack several fakes, and it's the same as point-whoring your villages to max points - weakens you overall.
 

csiz

Guest
Don't forget that even with 100 catapults you get a very good defense bonus if you get your pally to that village. So short of stacking alot of other types of troops you should use bonfire even with only 100 catapults. Although if you have alot of spears and you know your oppo has LC heavey attack then you can use the spear weapon.

But by having a few catapults, lets say 50-100 in each village you open up a ton of possibilities in defending. Even though somtimes you can't utilise it.
 

Ougthesmartone

Guest
Don't forget that even with 100 catapults you get a very good defense bonus if you get your pally to that village. So short of stacking alot of other types of troops you should use bonfire even with only 100 catapults. Although if you have alot of spears and you know your oppo has LC heavey attack then you can use the spear weapon.

But by having a few catapults, lets say 50-100 in each village you open up a ton of possibilities in defending. Even though somtimes you can't utilise it.
Too lazy to do this following calculation, but can someone do it and post please :icon_eek:

Troop Totals
Normal Defense
Normal Defense with 100 Catapults

Total Defense without Aletheia's Bonfire
Normal
-General
-Calvary
-Archer
Normal with 100 Catapults
-General
-Calvary
-Archer

Total Defense with Aletheia's Bonfire
Normal
-General
-Calvary
-Archer
Normal with 100 Catapults
-General
-Calvary
-Archer

Several different types of defenses would be better still, but it's up to you since this is a favor :icon_cool:

Using this, we can formulate a much better defined answer on how useful Aletheia's Bonfire actually is.
 

coolj2000

Guest
not sure about the calculations

not sure about the calculations but figured this in the simulator

Attacker attacks with:
6000 Axes
2500 LC

Defender has:
1000 Spears
1000 Swords
1000 Archers
500 Cats
1 Paladin with Aletheia's Bonfire

Attacker Losses:
6000 Lxes
2500 LC

Defender Losses:
521 Spears
521 Swords
521 Archers
260 Cats
1 Paladin

Both attacker and defender were Religious, (simulated on 0 luck)




looks like a reasonable way to defend yourself with very little troops the only dowside is you loose your paladin but if the attacker is not religious you keep the paladin and suffer way less losses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

crowley625

Guest
unit stats:

Normal stats:
Catapult (divided by 8)
atk: 12.5
I.D: 12.5
C.D: 6.25
A.D: 12.5

Bonfire stats:
atk: 25
I.D: 125
C.D: 62.5
A.D: 125

note: that's Per Villager Used to create 1 unit, which is how I like to break down unit stats to show people what truly is effective and what isn't for O and D
 

csiz

Guest
Yes why not? This item rocks. Just now I used it and I lost 2500 less troops than if I had not used it. Go figure.
 

k9burn

Guest
not sure about the calculations but figured this in the simulator

Attacker attacks with:
6000 Axes
2500 LC

Defender has:
1000 Spears
1000 Swords
1000 Archers
500 Cats
1 Paladin with Aletheia's Bonfire

Attacker Losses:
6000 Lxes
2500 LC

Defender Losses:
521 Spears
521 Swords
521 Archers
260 Cats
1 Paladin

Both attacker and defender were Religious, (simulated on 0 luck)




looks like a reasonable way to defend yourself with very little troops the only dowside is you loose your paladin but if the attacker is not religious you keep the paladin and suffer way less losses.
You assumed a level 20 wall and the attacker sent 0 rams. Pretty unlikely scenario. If the attacker sent 220+ rams, then the defender loses 864 spears (and the same percentage in other troops).

Also you need to consider the build/travel time of 500 catapults. Did those 500 catapults come from the same village? If so, that takes a while to build. Even with a level 15 workshop in a workshop bonus village, that takes almost 6 days to make. If the catapults came from many villages, then travel time can be a problem.
 

k9burn

Guest
unit stats:

Normal stats:
Catapult (divided by 8)
atk: 12.5
I.D: 12.5
C.D: 6.25
A.D: 12.5

Bonfire stats:
atk: 12.5
I.D: 125
C.D: 62.5
A.D: 125

note: that's Per Villager Used to create 1 unit, which is how I like to break down unit stats to show people what truly is effective and what isn't for O and D
Corrected. The attack power is not increased with the bonfire. The damage dealt during the bombardment phase is increased.
 

csiz

Guest
You assumed a level 20 wall and the attacker sent 0 rams. Pretty unlikely scenario. If the attacker sent 220+ rams, then the defender loses 864 spears (and the same percentage in other troops).

Also you need to consider the build/travel time of 500 catapults. Did those 500 catapults come from the same village? If so, that takes a while to build. Even with a level 15 workshop in a workshop bonus village, that takes almost 6 days to make. If the catapults came from many villages, then travel time can be a problem.
No matter how you twist it, the fact is that if you happen to be in a position to use it effectively you will come out as a winner by a huge margin. Something no other item can do for you.

It is unfair to measure an item against general play which includes all kinds of strategy, because the fact is that items play a very small role if any. But as far as items go, Bonfire is by far the best one.

Having 50-100 catapults in all villages, defensive and offensive is not something strange, this could be normal on worlds where Bonfire isn't so powerful. So you don't even have to employ a costly catapult strategy to make it effective. Just wait for the right opportunity where you can stack a few catapults and can have a pally there with Bonfire. This would then be maximizing the effectiveness of your paladin while not sacrificing efficiency :icon_wink:


But I still stand by my previous statement that early on this item will give a huge advantage to players, because the cost effectiveness of Bonfire enhanced catapults is the best of all units. Getting the lance or the axe also gives players a good advantage against those around but then it depends more on their skill and their luck if it pays off, because perhaps they are neighbours to another offensive player with the lance or the axe OR perhaps they hit a player with Bonfire and get crushed :icon_biggrin:
 

Dwarven King

Contributing Poster
And what are the odds that you or someone near you will get the Bonfire early on?

To be honest with you, on every world I play that has paladins, the bonfire is always one of the last ones I get.