BD vs. Phoenx

[DeletedUser]

Is there huggling and backdoor deals, or will this be a straight and fair fight? That is the real issue here.

With all due respect, T0P CAT, I consider a fair fight the one where the opponent goes down as quickly as possible with as little damage to me as possible.

From what I can tell, "hugging and backdoor deals" have always been a part of Tribal Wars (and wars in general), as everyone nearby to a conflict has something to gain or lose from the outcome.

 

[DeletedUser]

I say "easy" because from a stats point of view, you have very little opposition. Your ODD is abysmal compared to other tribes in this world. It is very easy to expand if nobody is hitting you back.

i can speak from the other side of the fence, my so called elite top 10 tribe got destroyed tried to fight back and gave up and got crushed, my second tribe also got the same showing and i can assure you alot of o was sent but alot got dodged alot got killed,

any student of the game would know just sit and stack to boost your stats is a poor move you lose troops and its skilless really, the prestige is in the oda any noob can stack but who can perform magic and destroy whats in front of you. so the odd arguement is baseless.

now im on the other side of the fence yes your points sound/read good but lack a bit of foresight in your written attacks but a good read. 5 posts since 2008 where you been hiding ?

 

[Gicusan]

don't bet too much on TWC being around. they are in an internal disorder ever since they had 1/4 of the tribe banned including leaders and they solved it with a double merger. one of their dukes left them yesterday. we had applications from some members... TWC is having big problems as they are. Whomever brings an enemy duke as duke in the new merged tribe is a total moron and fully deserves what is happening to him/them. I am not saying karmax is a bad leader or a bad player as I have no idea. certainly there is a bad timing.

 

[DeletedUser34353]

any student of the game would know just sit and stack to boost your stats is a poor move you lose troops and its skilless really, the prestige is in the oda any noob can stack but who can perform magic and destroy whats in front of you. so the odd arguement is baseless.

I'm not talking about boosting stats by wasting troops. Do you think that's why there are 5 other tribes with more ODD then yours?

I did play this world at the beginning and I do remember BD being #1 for ODD, although the milestone thread seems to have disappeared. However, since the world evolved and perhaps BD's reputation has preceded them, your opponents do not fight back as much as other tribes on W30. Or maybe they do, and BD just dodges the attacks? :icon_confused:

I'll use an example. Die. or even Hammer would be a good one. Skill-wise, if you compare Die./Hammer to [DN], [DN] comes out on top. They had the technical knowledge to rival the best in this world. But they gave up very quickly. Die./Hammer have lost hundreds, almost thousands of villages. Die. fought for 8+ months, Hammer is still fighting after 3 months. [DN] gave up in 2 months. If I recall, they had 1 major tribal OP on BD and 1 weak OP towards the end, then gave up. I can't in good conscience call that a great tribe, or even a good tribe...

Every losing tribe will face morale issues and internal struggles, but it's how you deal with those issues that makes you a great tribe or a shitty tribe.

 

[Gicusan]

i think we should stop talking so much BD. it is bad for this world. what good would be if I say stuff like: "it may be fun from time to time but generally, when fighting BD, as a tribe and as a player you have to prepare yourself for massive and constant drop in the morale department". or "we are build so that no one is indispensable". This is the most active world from 1 to 39 included. Let us not spoil it. besides, despite us believing in ourselves, no war is won till it is ended.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not talking about boosting stats by wasting troops. Do you think that's why there are 5 other tribes with more ODD then yours?

I did play this world at the beginning and I do remember BD being #1 for ODD, although the milestone thread seems to have disappeared. However, since the world evolved and perhaps BD's reputation has preceded them, your opponents do not fight back as much as other tribes on W30. Or maybe they do, and BD just dodges the attacks? :icon_confused:

I'll use an example. Die. or even Hammer would be a good one. Skill-wise, if you compare Die./Hammer to [DN], [DN] comes out on top. They had the technical knowledge to rival the best in this world. But they gave up very quickly. Die./Hammer have lost hundreds, almost thousands of villages. Die. fought for 8+ months, Hammer is still fighting after 3 months. [DN] gave up in 2 months. If I recall, they had 1 major tribal OP on BD and 1 weak OP towards the end, then gave up. I can't in good conscience call that a great tribe, or even a good tribe...

Every losing tribe will face morale issues and internal struggles, but it's how you deal with those issues that makes you a great tribe or a shitty tribe.

not to intrested in what other tribes odd is or rankor points to be honest, im not even intrested in where bd stands now.

all i find important is in how you win as i have been on both sides im lucky to see it from a different perspective, last war of note we tried to hold we stacked frontlines we prepped etc when you see your entire frontline dissapear on 2 fronts but folk keep fighting how does bd lose credit in that? (attackers against erevos) i sat some accounts and it was torrid on that frontline under such pressure your counter attack will be ineffective as you are under so much pressure to defend, when we countered x nukes got spallted the rest got dodged when you go to noble you get sniped.

thats called effective troop mangement so again the stat odd arguement is baseless divided the odd by member count etc etc someone with 60 members gonna gain more odd than a tribe attacking with less... hence the dodging you get it yet?

im bit bored now anyway cba to argue about methods but hey we suck

 

[xinryr]

don't bet too much on TWC being around. they are in an internal disorder ever since they had 1/4 of the tribe banned including leaders and they solved it with a double merger. one of their dukes left them yesterday. we had applications from some members... TWC is having big problems as they are. Whomever brings an enemy duke as duke in the new merged tribe is a total moron and fully deserves what is happening to him/them. I am not saying karmax is a bad leader or a bad player as I have no idea. certainly there is a bad timing.

T-W-C hasn't been around for a while

@bold: I have no idea if any of them got ranks, but did you not merge in a couple of DN (a former enemy tribe) members ? Or is that mitigated by BD's enlightened recruitment policies...?

 

[DeletedUser]

T-W-C hasn't been around for a while

@bold: I have no idea if any of them got ranks, but did you not merge in a couple of DN (a former enemy tribe) members ? Or is that mitigated by BD's enlightened recruitment policies...?

thats called fruits of your labour take the best kill the rest, merging is hugging your opposition instead of killing them

 

[DeletedUser34353]

not to intrested in what other tribes odd is or rankor points to be honest, im not even intrested in where bd stands now.

all i find important is in how you win as i have been on both sides im lucky to see it from a different perspective, last war of note we tried to hold we stacked frontlines we prepped etc when you see your entire frontline dissapear on 2 fronts but folk keep fighting how does bd lose credit in that? (attackers against erevos) i sat some accounts and it was torrid on that frontline under such pressure your counter attack will be ineffective as you are under so much pressure to defend, when we countered x nukes got spallted the rest got dodged when you go to noble you get sniped.

thats called effective troop mangement so again the stat odd arguement is baseless divided the odd by member count etc etc someone with 60 members gonna gain more odd than a tribe attacking with less... hence the dodging you get it yet?

im bit bored now anyway cba to argue about methods but hey we suck

Sorry, I didn't understand most of this. Not sure if English is your first language, or maybe you're allergic to punctuation, capitalization, grammar in general... but I wasn't able to follow this so I can't really reply. Not trying to be offensive, it's just hard to reply to your reply when you don't know what is being said. :icon_confused:

 

[Gicusan]

we got 4 people trough harsh interviews and all. i am proud to fight alongside them. that is not a merge.

recruiting people with TWC questionnaire of 7 or something q that reveal almost nothing is a whole different business.

anyway Shear, go kill some Loen. We should stop bragging, it only brings more enemies. wait... is that a bad thing?

 

[DeletedUser]

Your approach to recruitment is not what I would consider typical. Especially if, as you said, you were working with Phoenx and had that mutual respect between your tribes. If Templarz had been accepted into BD already, why join Phoenx for over a month? Maybe he was spying, maybe not, maybe he just likes tribe-hopping.

I'm curious now as to what W30 forum readers think.

Do you consider recruiting members from an active tribe as disrespectful toward that tribe?

-Or-

Do you think that it has nothing to do with respect for the tribe, but respect for the player?

I know it is not what is considered typical. Most tribes also do not conduct skype interviews and most also drool when they see a top 20 account applying, regardless of where they are in the rankings. For me it's basically about what a tribe is. A tribe to me is a collection of individuals who agree to strive towards a common goal and aid eachother through good times and bad times. If one of those individuals feels he's better of elsewhere then how can a tribe deny him that? It's his choice. There is no ingame mechanism to prevent someone from leaving. You can declare him/her a refugee and you can pursue his/her villages. But i doubt that'll make the leaving member repent, and if it does would you even want him back?

I find that many tribal leaders make the mistake of treating their players as property to be kept in check and do their bidding. Few tribes have a leadership that tries to listen actively to their members. An active player leaving an active tribe means that either you did something wrong as a tribe, to rub him/her in such a way that he/she doesn't want to stay OR it means that the other tribe has something to offer that the previous tribe did not (and that something can be a great many things, including information that the old tribe can use). In neither case does the tribe that gains a player have an obligation to warn the other tribe about the impending loss (several reasons not to in fact) or does the respect for that tribe have anything to do with whether or not a tribe should accept the wannabe defecting player. You recruit that player because he or she would be a good fit for your tribe and he or she has what it takes to be in there (desire, intelligence, skill, mentality, activity). You can put more into it, and it can make for nice PnP or a good pretext for war. But it's entirely artificial if you ask me.

 

[DeletedUser]

I am not going to get into Bad's argument. However, if I am not mistaken, Templarz joined Pheonx so he could seal the ED merge that was about his boys. Second reason is because Vlad had a temporary border VETO vote against from our beloved and now mostly inactive ronpaul. After the merge was done and the vet was lifted, he could follow his heart desire. That is the story there. That aside, enough talking about that Temp noob. I am also not a lover of his jumpings but I like Temp as a tribemate. Also, I felt like treating Pheonx bad when we accepted him. However, that, same as Fraser story more recently, was Pajuno's mistake to begin with.

Pretty Much 100% correct there... well except for Gic being jealous of my Stardom!

Tribe Jumpings?! .. Jeezus!!!

**T**
to
HAM!!!
to 3 break offs of a tribe of mates I lead with some friends.
to Phoenx for a solidification
to where i wanted to be .. BD

Lets see .. 3 tribes in my mind .. and a few extra moves / renames for a time passer ...

Who cares, people can read into it as much as they want .. seriously think people need to be gaming more then doing this garbage ... but whateva

 

[Pajuno]

Pretty Much 100% correct there... well except for Gic being jealous of my Stardom!

Tribe Jumpings?! .. Jeezus!!!

**T**
to
HAM!!!
to 3 break offs of a tribe of mates I lead with some friends.
to Phoenx for a solidification
to where i wanted to be .. BD

Lets see .. 3 tribes in my mind .. and a few extra moves / renames for a time passer ...

Who cares, people can read into it as much as they want .. seriously think people need to be gaming more then doing this garbage ... but whateva

Ahhh..


so you 100% used Phoenx for your own selfish purposes. Nice work, templarz.



Too bad you broke a promise...

 

[DeletedUser34353]

I know it is not what is considered typical. Most tribes also do not conduct skype interviews and most also drool when they see a top 20 account applying, regardless of where they are in the rankings. For me it's basically about what a tribe is. A tribe to me is a collection of individuals who agree to strive towards a common goal and aid eachother through good times and bad times. If one of those individuals feels he's better of elsewhere then how can a tribe deny him that? It's his choice. There is no ingame mechanism to prevent someone from leaving. You can declare him/her a refugee and you can pursue his/her villages. But i doubt that'll make the leaving member repent, and if it does would you even want him back?

I find that many tribal leaders make the mistake of treating their players as property to be kept in check and do their bidding. Few tribes have a leadership that tries to listen actively to their members. An active player leaving an active tribe means that either you did something wrong as a tribe, to rub him/her in such a way that he/she doesn't want to stay OR it means that the other tribe has something to offer that the previous tribe did not (and that something can be a great many things, including information that the old tribe can use). In neither case does the tribe that gains a player have an obligation to warn the other tribe about the impending loss (several reasons not to in fact) or does the respect for that tribe have anything to do with whether or not a tribe should accept the wannabe defecting player. You recruit that player because he or she would be a good fit for your tribe and he or she has what it takes to be in there (desire, intelligence, skill, mentality, activity). You can put more into it, and it can make for nice PnP or a good pretext for war. But it's entirely artificial if you ask me.

This method would benefit the unloyal tribe-jumpers. Yes, they may be a good fit for you now, but who's to say that in a few months a better opportunity doesn't arise and they leave you for that next tribe? You would assume they are loyal to you, but so did the last tribe, and the tribe before that... I won't point fingers, that isn't the purpose of this thread, nor are your specific recruitment policies, but I am still curious as to what the majority of non-BD W30 forum readers think about this.

Ever heard the saying "The grass is always greener on the other side"?

 

[DeletedUser]

All those maybe situations you mentioned would confirm my suspicions about the easy nature of your wars.

A tribe that allows their offense to be taken out?
A tribe full of turtles?
A tribe that doesn't hit back?
A tribe that hits back once or twice then quits?

For a tribe as aggressive and coordinated as BD? E-A-S-Y.

To be clear, I originally intended to be unbiased in this thread. Due to Gicusans defensive stance, I did favor BD's issues in my responses. However, I do respect BD greatly as a tribe as well as Phoenx and RAM. There is a war brewing in the south though, and this thread will hopefully be used by all three tribes concerned so we can get a better picture of what is going on. Is there huggling and backdoor deals, or will this be a straight and fair fight? That is the real issue here.

Wel, i've yet to face the first world where all tribes are good. Usually you have a number that drift out on top. And you have a number of families that counter the skill of those tribe by amassing sheer numbers to n00ble them out. W30 doesn't have big families. The closest thing to it was the Decide/Hammer/Tardis/T-W-C alliance. Die tried it for a while but failed miserably.

In my experience most tribes and players have the impression that if they focus enough firepower on a small part of an enemy frontline they can just blow their D to pieces and then mop them up. This makes for a nice inflated ODD on both sides, but from an offensive perspective it's very bad strategy. I rarely defend vs all nukes that are sent at me. Its a lot easier to defend strategic villages and dodge/snipe/prenoble the rest. If they come back for round two i'll have lost a far smaller % of my troops and i'll be at an advantage. If i had blocked all nukes that were sent at me my ODD would be twice what it is now. And my enemies would be a lot less demoralised by their inability to make a meaningful gain against me.

Basically: tribes with a huge ODD are those who tend to be defensive turtles. Those with a huge ODA are those who tend to be offense whores. If you find it a sign of weak wars that BDs enemies haven't survived long, it's in great part due to the offensive skill of our players that demoralises them. It's in equal part due to their tendency to turtle up and throw their O around without putting thought/effort into it. Personally i still have almost twice as much D as i have O. And yet i expand faster then all but one in my tribe. Having O is not the same as knowing how to use it. And the same goes for D. Imo both ODA and ODD are nothing but stats that point towards a tendency, but they need a lot of commenting to make sense of them.

As to the last part of your quote... i've all confidence that phoenx will put up a stellar fight and not crumble fast like other tribes have. I've equal confidence that RAM will be a non-factor till that war is decided.

 

[DeletedUser]

This method would benefit the unloyal tribe-jumpers. Yes, they may be a good fit for you now, but who's to say that in a few months a better opportunity doesn't arise and they leave you for that next tribe?

Loyalty needs to be earned, you don't just get it because they're in your tribe Would you blame anyone for leaving D2 and joining Phoenx? Would you blame someone who left AA to join BD? This is still a game. I work to earn the loyalty of my tribesmates, and if they don't do so too then they'll find i won't defend them. As long as Templarz works for my loyalty he'll get mine in return (he does). And if he one day decides to up and leave for a better tribe, then i won't hold that against him. I might attack him cause his villages compromise my security or that of a tribesmate, but i won't attack him out of spite because he left. If you want an example: i didn't do that to fraser. I even kept support in his villages and asked others in my tribe to do likewise. I only started scouting him when T-W-C was nobling his inactive ass. And i only started attacking him when he attacked my tribesmates.

 

[DeletedUser]

I see nothing wrong with mergers, nothing wrong with going from enemies to freindlies in the same tribe. I think the merger was inevitable and it needed to take place. As far as Karmax goes, I like his leadership style. I didnt know all that much about Karmax untill he joined RAM. And so far no one in the leadership roles in RAM has given me any reason to have doubts. Shipley and Karmax have things running smooth in my opinion.

 

[Gicusan]

I see nothing wrong with mergers, nothing wrong with going from enemies to freindlies in the same tribe. I think the merger was inevitable and it needed to take place. As far as Karmax goes, I like his leadership style. I didnt know all that much about Karmax untill he joined RAM. And so far no one in the leadership roles in RAM has given me any reason to have doubts. Shipley and Karmax have things running smooth in my opinion.

sure. and Crasula left because Shipley broke his heart? He left him for karmax? Not that he is tired of the whole lot in there that only look for barbs and are so happy when some guy gets kicked as they can internally ennoble more? instead of sticking and defending their members? And not being able to send a proper nuke? I am over evaluating Cras a little, but even some noblet like him can get tired.

 

[DeletedUser]

I have no idea why crasula left, I didnt ask. But one person leaving doesnt constitute disorder in any tribe.

 

[Gicusan]

I have no idea why crasula left, I didnt ask. But one person leaving doesnt constitute disorder in any tribe.

say it a few times more and maybe you start to believe it.


Gicusan is glad as he is back to his favorite sport: bashing Cras and TWC.:icon_twisted: Bonus, now in game too.