Cross the threshold...

DeletedUser54677

Guest
Some of you know me, a lot of you don't. Either way, I'm a big fan of early world PnP, so I'll throw my lot in with the rest of you posting.

The topic I'm creating is more one of debate, rather than introductions. So, let's get to the nitty-gritty, ne?

I want to know your village/troop builds. Why do you use them? Who taught you how to build them? What are your general ratios for Offense:Defense? "But why should I show you my secrets?", you may ask yourselves. Because I'm spoiled, and I like getting what I want. :lol:

In all seriousness, I like a good debate without so much the flaming aspect. Think you got a better build than me? Tell me why. Think your village build is better? Tell me why. Think you got dandruff? Keep that to yourself. Nasty bugger. :icon_razz:


As with all things, you need someone to kick things off, so I'll take the reigns and answer my own topic! *audible gasp*


I'll be using my troop builds from W24, as that's the world with the most experience I have, nice groups set up and everything. Settings are generally the same, so it's still viable to use them here, save for the 3-tech system. I'll try to take that into account with my builds.












Spears, swords, axes, scouts, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, rams, catapults, archers (not used), mounted archers (not used)




Attack
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 1 Ca: 1
[0,0,6028,5,0,2000,300,150,0,0]

I use this as the main 'bulk' of my offense. Everything balances out well enough so that it rebuilds in roughly 16 days, if not a little lower. I build 300 rams for the obvious reason of breaking the wall down quicker. I build 150 cats to hurt our enemies, not only during cat ops but also when I target players myself.




Ram fake
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 1 Ca: 1
[0,0,0,3000,0,0,3000,0,0,0]

I use this build when I want to send mass fakes. It allows me to send a great many attacks all at once, very quickly. I only build 2-4 of these types of village max, no matter how many villages I have on any world.




Frontline attack
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 1 Ca: 1
[0,0,5928,5,0,2000,300,100,0,0]

I use this build to suit my frontline for offense. It cuts out some cats and axes to make the build under 500 population. This serves two purposes, one being that I can make a train in any village I wish. The second being that usually when you noble villages, they are not already set into your village build. This will accomdate for that, even if someone builds a max village, and will still allow you to build troops and nobles effectively.



Scout
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 1 Ca: 1
[0,0,0,10500,0,0,0,0,0,0]

Self-explanatory, really. It's a scout village, I build scouts. I have roughly 5 villages at the moment with this build.




Cat villages
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 0 Ca: 2
[0,0,4000,338,0,0,0,2000,0,0]

Heh, one of my favorite types of villages. I use these when we have a cat op. I send them in groups of 50/1/25, each one targetting something such as the clay pit. Maximum damage. I send the troops out roughly 2 days after my initial force, giving me plenty of time to clear villages out beforehand. I have roughly 15 of these villages.




Quick defense
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 1 Ca: 1
[7738,0,0,100,0,2000,0,100,0,0]

I use this build along my frontline defensive villages. I have all three troop making buildings going at once, giving me maximum defense as quick as possible. It builds in half the time as the sw/sp build, however it lacks the same defensive punch. This build uses 2000 HC, so it's iron intensive, however I use the resource balancing script (in the script section) to ship in iron from other villages.





Do your worst. :icon_biggrin:
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Ram fake
Techs - Sp: 3 Sw: 1 Ax: 3 Sc: 3 LC: 0 HC: 3 Ra: 1 Ca: 1
[0,0,0,3000,0,0,3000,0,0,0]

I use this build when I want to send mass fakes. It allows me to send a great many attacks all at once, very quickly. I only build 2-4 of these types of village max, no matter how many villages I have on any world.


Isnt this pointless ?

Unless you send the fakes to diffrent people who dont talk , because otherwise if you send all fakes form this village , Smart players would no only one nuke could be hiding their ;)

So may as well make it another offensive , seeing how long it takes for nukes to build



But apart from that pretty decent .

Maybe have some villages with lc instead of heavies and downgrade scouts accordingly .

Also talk to your tribe about whether they are going for spear sword or spear heavies , and adjust villages accordingly
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'm just a wrinkled old-timer, but I'll give my two cents. :icon_wink:
World 24 was, I believe, X2 or X1.5 speed? And I don't think they had tech levels. I may be wrong.
I was #1 there early but that was a long time ago.

Not a bad strategy but it is inefficient, especially with a slow world. You would need many more nukes to overcome the inefficiencies of that much HC rather than LC in your offense. You also need much larger axe numbers to counteract some of that same inefficiency. You also have too many rams. The additional increase in wall destruction does not outweigh the damage of the additional units you would have otherwise, axe/LC. Wall destruction is important but I direct you to this thread for my evidence:
http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=100537

Tech levels make axes much more important here.
Moreover, getting a nuke ready as quickly as possible is so much more important than having everything perfect.
I am a huge fan of the HC strategy, having weighed in on several debates on the subject, but on .5 speed it is just too slow.

By building as efficiently as possible you are able to better acquire more villages more quickly, which builds on itself. I call it critical mass. You can usually just grind out the opposition with superior numbers- like in a family tribe's dreams.

It just doesn't happen too many times that you ever go head to head with people and you all have access to a lot of full-farm, perfectly constructed offense and defense. In my career it has happened maybe 3 times and that was when I had 100+ vills on w3 and was obviously very late in the game. I have yet to even play another world long enough to run into that situation again.

Also, you can build some cats and rams for fakes and then revoke that smithy level for use somewhere else.

My builds, roughly:
Offense:
8000+ axe, ~2000 LC, ~250 rams, ~12 cats
Smithy: Sp 3 Sw 1 Axe 3 LC 3 HC 3 ram 2 or cats

Defense:
10000 spear, An appropriate number of scouts, ~1800 HC, 120 cats
Smithy: Sp 3 Sw 1 Scouts 3 HC 3 cats 3

As the world ages, I sometimes start building my offensive villages with HC. And I typically have one D village with a decent number of scouts and less in the others. Scouts are a tricky unit and their usefulness is dubious in my opinion as the world progresses.
As for ratios of offense to defense, I have no hard rule. Out where I am on the rim, I doubt I will need much D, so it boils down to how I want to be useful to my tribe.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Guest
I'm just a wrinkled old-timer, but I'll give my two cents. :icon_wink:
World 24 was, I believe, X2 or X1.5 speed? And I don't think they had tech levels. I may be wrong.
I was #1 there early but that was a long time ago.

Not a bad strategy but it is inefficient, especially with a slow world. You would need many more nukes to overcome the inefficiencies of that much HC rather than LC in your offense. You also need much larger axe numbers to counteract some of that same inefficiency. You also have too many rams. The additional increase in wall destruction does not outweigh the damage of the additional units you would have otherwise, axe/LC. Wall destruction is important but I direct you to this thread for my evidence:
http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=100537

Tech levels make axes much more important here.
Moreover, getting a nuke ready as quickly as possible is so much more important than having everything perfect.
I am a huge fan of the HC strategy, having weighed in on several debates on the subject, but on .5 speed it is just too slow.

By building as efficiently as possible you are able to better acquire more villages more quickly, which builds on itself. I call it critical mass. You can usually just grind out the opposition with superior numbers- like in a family tribe's dreams.

It just doesn't happen too many times that you ever go head to head with people and you all have access to a lot of full-farm, perfectly constructed offense and defense. In my career it has happened maybe 3 times and that was when I had 100+ vills on w3 and was obviously very late in the game. I have yet to even play another world long enough to run into that situation again.

Also, you can build some cats and rams for fakes and then revoke that smithy level for use somewhere else.

My builds, roughly:
Offense:
8000+ axe, ~2000 LC, ~250 rams, ~12 cats
Smithy: Sp 3 Sw 1 Axe 3 LC 3 HC 3 ram 2 or cats

Defense:
10000 spear, An appropriate number of scouts, ~1800 HC, 120 cats
Smithy: Sp 3 Sw 1 Scouts 3 HC 3 cats 3

As the world ages, I sometimes start building my offensive villages with HC. And I typically have one D village with a decent number of scouts and less in the others. Scouts are a tricky unit and their usefulness is dubious in my opinion as the world progresses.
As for ratios of offense to defense, I have no hard rule. Out where I am on the rim, I doubt I will need much D, so it boils down to how I want to be useful to my tribe.


I suppose eww is really not a good stance, however I am too lazy to go point by point through everything. So don't mind if I do Socratic method of going through things.

When you switch to hc early in any world, speed of growth aside you rob yourself of strategic versatility in defending. You are supporting your villages with both offense and defense which is awesome for stacks, but that is the only advantage that you get. You have quick and easy support, however in my opinion it is that very fact that is hc strats greatest disadvantage.

When you support with your offensive villages you are now not only tieing up your offense for that time, but you are crippling it as well for the future. As well as slowing your build time for an offense, you are now killing off sections of that offense while you defend, enlarging the offensive drop that you are giving yourself through building hc in the first place. Remember hc is only as offensively adept as swords are, and losing one is like losing 1.5 lc before you begin to factor in the fact that they are weaker. Mind you you lose them in both defense and offense...
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I won't spam here....this thread just might work... :) ...well good luck anyways
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I was gonna go point by point through what you said, but I got really lazy, and then didnt even really use your post as a base.

Lol. That's why I was confused. Didn't seem like anything you said was related to my post.
 

DeletedUser54677

Guest
Isnt this pointless ?

Unless you send the fakes to diffrent people who dont talk , because otherwise if you send all fakes form this village , Smart players would no only one nuke could be hiding their ;)

So may as well make it another offensive , seeing how long it takes for nukes to build



But apart from that pretty decent .

Maybe have some villages with lc instead of heavies and downgrade scouts accordingly .

Also talk to your tribe about whether they are going for spear sword or spear heavies , and adjust villages accordingly

Perhaps. But again, I only use 2-4, and if they're not online to tag, they don't know that they're all from the same village. I usually get my first faking village around 50 villages, about the time when players and tribes start to conform to powerhouses and most of the inactives in the area are killed off. Either way, I'm still forcing them to tag it, lest my real attacks go unnoticed.

I never said that this was the only village I ever fake from, far from it, in fact. I use all my villages in W24 to fake, and I fake with everything from scouts to LC to rams to even nobles. This type of village merely supplements my real attacks by surrounding them with mass fakes. For ever real attack, I could throw in 30 fakes.

I use the scout 3 tech for the obvious reason of I like to see what's in my enemy villages. If they dodge, I know what they have. If they get killed off in a nuke, I know the village is empty.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Perhaps. But again, I only use 2-4, and if they're not online to tag, they don't know that they're all from the same village. I usually get my first faking village around 50 villages, about the time when players and tribes start to conform to powerhouses and most of the inactives in the area are killed off. Either way, I'm still forcing them to tag it, lest my real attacks go unnoticed.

I never said that this was the only village I ever fake from, far from it, in fact. I use all my villages in W24 to fake, and I fake with everything from scouts to LC to rams to even nobles. This type of village merely supplements my real attacks by surrounding them with mass fakes. For ever real attack, I could throw in 30 fakes.

I use the scout 3 tech for the obvious reason of I like to see what's in my enemy villages. If they dodge, I know what they have. If they get killed off in a nuke, I know the village is empty.


I didn't address the "fail/fake" village in my earlier post. A faking village is absolutely pointless. Just a waste of a village. Now if you were using it as a "cat nuke" of some kind, then it would be (slightly) understandable. As you are putting it, it doesn't make any sense. Why not just have another offensive or defensive village?

Too much specialization can be a bad thing. This game has been played so much, pored over with math and spreadsheets- there are really only a few "right ways" to play. Especially on an old school world at slow speed... Strategy is pretty cut and dry at this point. Fake villages are not a part of such winning ways. If you do succeed, then it has nothing to do with the fact that you had such a village constructed. Additionally, the time involved in building a cat nuke on world 45 is prohibitive to say the least. Not to mention the wasted farm space from having to build a L15 workshop. Just playing traditionally would enable you to be a better player.

Also, it's pretty easy to tell that they are all coming from the same village. Simply looking at the times of the incomings would be a dead giveaway so long as you're capable of doing simple math in your head. Even if they are sent to multiple villages, with premium such a strategy would be completely ineffective and just a waste of your own time and a perfectly good village.

Moreover, even if you did succeed in confounding you're enemy, after the first few fakes hit, your strategy would be exposed. And you would by that time be running into an opponent with a significant amount of villages. I know I counter-scout just about every attack on a world with L3 scouts available, to try to determine for sure the nature of the incomings. So you would have to protect that village from discovery and attack, which would be a waste of defending scouts and defensive troops that could be better used elsewhere and would thus compound your inefficiencies from the other build strategies I alluded to earlier.

Taking everything into account, the way you build all your various villages, if you were to play as you have described and ran into people with comparable numbers of villages, with a traditional build strategy, and a modicum of experience, you would be in a lot of trouble. And if you have experienced success using such strategies, then you have been pretty lucky.

Oh and sorry for bashing you... but I've been away for awhile and feel like posting. :icon_cool:
 

DeletedUser54677

Guest
I didn't address the "fail/fake" village in my earlier post. A faking village is absolutely pointless. Just a waste of a village. Now if you were using it as a "cat nuke" of some kind, then it would be (slightly) understandable. As you are putting it, it doesn't make any sense. Why not just have another offensive or defensive village?

Too much specialization can be a bad thing. This game has been played so much, pored over with math and spreadsheets- there are really only a few "right ways" to play. Especially on an old school world at slow speed... Strategy is pretty cut and dry at this point. Fake villages are not a part of such winning ways. If you do succeed, then it has nothing to do with the fact that you had such a village constructed. Additionally, the time involved in building a cat nuke on world 45 is prohibitive to say the least. Not to mention the wasted farm space from having to build a L15 workshop. Just playing traditionally would enable you to be a better player.

Also, it's pretty easy to tell that they are all coming from the same village. Simply looking at the times of the incomings would be a dead giveaway so long as you're capable of doing simple math in your head. Even if they are sent to multiple villages, with premium such a strategy would be completely ineffective and just a waste of your own time and a perfectly good village.

Moreover, even if you did succeed in confounding you're enemy, after the first few fakes hit, your strategy would be exposed. And you would by that time be running into an opponent with a significant amount of villages. I know I counter-scout just about every attack on a world with L3 scouts available, to try to determine for sure the nature of the incomings. So you would have to protect that village from discovery and attack, which would be a waste of defending scouts and defensive troops that could be better used elsewhere and would thus compound your inefficiencies from the other build strategies I alluded to earlier.

Taking everything into account, the way you build all your various villages, if you were to play as you have described and ran into people with comparable numbers of villages, with a traditional build strategy, and a modicum of experience, you would be in a lot of trouble. And if you have experienced success using such strategies, then you have been pretty lucky.

Oh and sorry for bashing you... but I've been away for awhile and feel like posting. :icon_cool:

I didn't make a forum thread to be coddled, I made one so I could debate. Whether my points are incorrect or not is for other's to decide. True there's no one true way to build a village, and every strategy (usually!) has it's merits, but that doesn't mean that my builds can't kick your builds' asses. :icon_razz:

I don't believe it's pointless at all. I like keeping 300 rams in my nukes to kill the wall with, and I'll generally send out 5 fakes per nuke. I don't like weakening my nukes too much to be honest, so I choose to make the ramfake village. A waste of a village? That's your own opinion. Say that when you catch 2000 incomings untagged over the course of 2 hours or so. :icon_smile:

Your point about defending from scouts is relatively pointless, as they'd need 1400+ to even see what's in the village, assuming it's full. In the event you send out half, you've still got a 500+ scout leeway to use. I don't know about you, but I don't generally send out that much when scouting after people have 50+ villages.

As I said, these builds are from W24, so it'll be pretty different, but I did my best to integrate the settings, I.E. took out my sp/sw build. Not always the best way to do things, but none the less, kicked things off pretty nicely.

Either way, these builds do me wonders on W24 (not saying they will here, though), and I'd say that a majority of the players left have more than a modicum of experience. As I said, I only build 2-4 of that type, no matter how many villages I own (on W24, it's at around 750), and I start building the first one around 50 villages. This village is also infinately more successful when used during tribal ops, when everyone is attacking the same few targets than it would be by itself, attacking one or two players. W24 being a lot older, though, has a large part of how my specialization I use. Having 10 villages and having 500+ creates a large gap, and allows me much more access to various strategies. Also, what works on one world may not on another, due to different players and settings.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I don't believe it's pointless at all. I like keeping 300 rams in my nukes to kill the wall with, and I'll generally send out 5 fakes per nuke. I don't like weakening my nukes too much to be honest, so I choose to make the ramfake village. A waste of a village? That's your own opinion. Say that when you catch 2000 incomings untagged over the course of 2 hours or so. :icon_smile:.
haahaa. You dont think 2000 attacks from one village makes them easy to pick out. PLEASE ATTACK ME, and teach this method to everyone.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
BAM! WALL of text. Let's see your rams break through this...


2000 fakes in 2 hrs... That's dedication and unnecessary. Moreover, at a certain point after a few hundred it doesn't make any difference to me. Besides you only need to tag the nobles anyway. And with premium it is pretty easy to figure out. And who isn't permanently sat/active during wartime? Only the losers. Also as Hedge said, they are all from the same village, making it even EASIER to tell they are fakes.

I just don't get it- the ram village. But that's probably because it doesn't make any sense. It really is pointless in all ways. Its job can be accomplished without it. It is extraneous.
Perhaps I am missing the actual troop numbers in the fake village? 3000 scouts and 3000 rams? 3000 axe and 3000 lc?
The way you have your troop builds described makes it a bit confusing to tell what you are actually building.

As for your regular nukes, did you read the ram guide I directed you to?

Since you obviously didn't I will summarize it for you here.

Those extra rams and cats in your nukes could mean an extra 1200+ axe. Much more effective mathematically than having all that extra siege. That's a fact. None of what I'm saying is new. You can read all about it. It is a proven fact that 219-238 rams is the ideal number of rams on a classic world.

Here's some evidence for you:

Attacker 0 0 10010 0 2200 0 238 0 0 0 947.000 567.900 998.000 20.000
Losses: 0 0 10010 0 2200 0 238 0 0 0 947.000 567.900 998.000 20.000

Defender 10000/10000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 800.000 600.000 800.000 20.000
Losses: 6005 6005 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 480.400 360.300 480.400 12.010
wall from 20 to 11

Versus your nuke:

Attacker 0 0 6028 5 2000 0 300 150 0 0 749.930 501.090 816.220 16.738
Losses: 0 0 6028 0 2000 0 300 150 0 0 749.680 500.840 816.120 16.728

Defender 10000/10000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 800.000 600.000 800.000 20.000
Losses: 3880 3880 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 310.400 232.800 310.400 7.760
wall from 20 to 13

The extra rams just don't make any difference. It really is all about the soldiers.
And I'm using your numbers, I know the populations aren't the same. That's not my fault.
Also if they use spear/HC rather than spear/sword the difference is even more drastic in favor of my strategy.

Even if you bump up your numbers to a comparable level of population, mine is superior. It looks like this:

Attacker 0 0 8500 0 2200 0 300 150 0 0 923.000 595.000 965.000 20.000
Losses: 0 0 8500 0 2200 0 300 150 0 0 923.000 595.000 965.000 20.000

Defender 10000 /10000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 800.000 600.000 800.000 20.000
Losses: 5403 5403 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 432.240 324.180 432.240 10.806
wall from 20 to 10.

Do you see? I have made suggestions in the past about being able to target the wall with cats in the simulator. Unfortunately it is not possible but they don't deal their damage pre-battle anyway. Also I got the sense you don't always send the cats with the rest of your nuke- which would only worsen your battle performance.
You are really just wasting population by building that extra siege. My nuke killed an extra 1200 soldiers and reduced the wall virtually the same.

This isn't a debate- it's an education. :)
All of this is old news too. You'll come around eventually.

I could call in bigger guns to tell you just how inefficient your builds are but that would be overkill.

Against stacked villages your build is even less effective comparatively:

Attacker 0 0 8500 0 2200 0 300 150 0 0 893.000 580.000 945.000 20.000
Losses: 0 0 8500 0 2200 0 300 150 0 0 893.000 580.000 945.000 20.000
Defender 40000 40000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.200.000 2.400.000 3.200.000 80.000
Losses: 2703 2703 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 203.680 152.760 203.680 5.092
Wall from 20 to 19

Versus Mine:

Attacker 0 0 10010 0 2200 0 238 0 0 0 946.400 567.600 997.600 20.000
Losses: 0 0 10010 0 2200 0 238 0 0 0 946.400 567.600 997.600 20.000
Defender 40000 40000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.200.000 2.400.000 3.200.000 80.000
Losses: 3004 3004 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 240.080 180.060 240.080 6.002
wall from 20 to 19


I didn't want to do all this- took me about 20 minutes, but you really are wrong. Somebody else post here and validate me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Guest
s isn't a debate- it's an education. :)
All of this is old news too. You'll come around eventually.
This, I would add as well, since Im too lazy to work with numbers, adding 10 rams to defensive villages and building 245 rams to leave faking from offensive villages, gives you the ability to send those fakes just as quickly as you would from a single village, but it will insteand give you a higher amount of villages that have possible real attacks. If I see 2000 attacks from one village as you suggest I know that the pop room has way too many rams, and thus I can simply ignore 2000 attacks. Now send 2000 attacks from 200 villages and I now have to watch those attacks, because some of them will be real, and if you add in cat villages.

Or in a world like this I have to disagree with duff here, you must watch all village is you massively noble fake behind that, There is nothing to stop us from making level 3 acd's in all villages and just confusing people as much as possible.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Hedge: Obviously you have to watch your villages, I was agreeing with your statement in that 2000 attacks from the same village can pretty much all be ignored.
I know what it is like to lose arguments in this forum. God knows I have seen it all in this game- seriously.
I have even had this same argument about ram counts before from the same perspective as killer kommando and was proven wrong. It would take too long to search for it but the discussion was with cheesasaurus and it was what prompted him to write his guide about rams.
 
Top