[Discussion] Experience Vs Adaptabilty + W30's Settings

[shadowbuzo]

Experience is the key, by far.

Why? Well you cannot properly adapt without knowing what needs to be changed alot, what needs to be changed some and what does not need any changing. How are you going to know these things? Well...experience.

If you do not know what to do in normal circumstances, how in the world are you going to know what to do in unordinary circumstances.

In order to adapt, you must know what needs to be changed and without experience or somewhere there guiding you, you will not know what it is that needs to be changed.

Mind you, you can get lucky with what you do in the beginning, but luck eventually runs out.

You just showed that both experience and adaptation come together.
No matter how much exp you have, if you don't know how to change and when to change you are pretty much screwed.

 

[DeletedUser]

really nice post

thanks

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, adaptation comes with experience. However, in the beginning you must have the experience to be able to adapt. They eventually become one, however at the start experience will be the key.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think this also depends on what stage of gameplay. For beginner protection and leading up to nobling adpatabilty to get there the quickest and with complete domination of your area is the most important. Although once you start getting further in experience on what to do becomes more important.

 

[DeletedUser43619]

i know kebabe8's threads when I see one :icon_razz:
good one tho

 

[Super fast]

i know kebabe8's threads when I see one :icon_razz:
good one tho

Blue text? Lol =)

 

[cursednova]

i liked the guide, nice logic and presentation there
good info as well not to forget...

 

[DeletedUser]

Thanks alot for the positive replies.

Would be nice to see more discussions.

Also, any feedback?

 

[DeletedUser92]

Impressive, to say the least. There are points that one could argue with, when thinking of the experience vs adaptability debate, but your assessments on the nature of the game seem spot on, and it feels like it would debase the discussion to actually debate it.

Very good work, all in all!

 

[DeletedUser]

When mentioning the 60 person limit, you forget about the 'shared forum' feature. It makes family tribes much more viable, and in a world of clusters, it makes sense.

 

[DeletedUser]

When mentioning the 60 person limit, you forget about the 'shared forum' feature. It makes family tribes much more viable, and in a world of clusters, it makes sense.

Yeah I forgot about that. Thanks

 

[DeletedUser]

Very good topic.

But who is to say that an experienced player is not also adaptable. If someone knows this game well, then wouldn't this change come easy for him/her? easier than someone who's not experienced and doesn't really know what the changes mean? Much less how to adapt to better serve under them.


idk if anyone has asked this question, bc the first post was enough of a read for me. so sorry if it's already been raised.

 

[DeletedUser]

Personally, I feel that the main failing point of these "experienced" players who claim greatness isn't necessarily their ability to adapt exactly, but their lack of understanding their experiences and therefore the game itself.

Many players who do well in the game in recent worlds follow patterns they read or were taught, essentially these players are cookie cutter molds. No one seems to want to find out the answers for themselves; they won't even follow the bread crumbs, so to say. They want explicit, step-by step instructions of how to find the fastest path from point A to point B.

This is where the disconnect of experience and adaptiveness happens in my view. A player who understands his experience, and understands why he does certain things will be able to adapt and change. A player with experience but no understanding of those experiences or any understanding of the game will find it impossible to adapt because they never knew why they did certain things, they just found out from someone else, a guide, or from playing for so long that one certain way happened to work out best for them on that world or situation.

I could go into much further detail on specific situations and such where I have witnessed the failings of experienced players that were a direct result of not understanding the game or their experience, but I think I will sum it up here and allow people to respond and see where it goes. A person is only the sum of their experiences; a failure to understand those experiences is a failure to understand one's self. Relate this last sentence to tribalwars.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'd have to go for adaptability. Quite a few of the players who people see as "elite" will fail on this world, because they are not adaptable imo.
For example optimus, you classed the coin + research settings as "newb" settings. This is just a total guess (and may well be wrong) but I would say you have never played a world with those settings, stuck by it and became as successful as on worlds with the other settings? I'm the same as that, but the opposite way around. The research and coins imo is simpler and allows you to focus on other, more interesting things imo.

The two main downfalls that can appear with experience are stubborness and arrogance in my opinion.
Experienced players are stubborn in that they do not want to learn new things. I do not care who you are, nobody knows how to react to every different situation that may arise. I've fell for this one and learnt from it, some tactics appear to fit almost every situation, but then one tiny detail comes along you didn't think of.

The arrogance can come when people think "my way is the only way, people doing stuff other ways are wrong" etc. However even worse can be the arrogance that makes people believe and know you are good. I saw this (what I will call) "deserved arrogance" with levathian in world 19. I haven't checked, but I guess it lead to their downfall? I can see that happening to quite a few tribes here

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, adaptation comes with experience. However, in the beginning you must have the experience to be able to adapt. They eventually become one, however at the start experience will be the key.

this pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[DeletedUser]

this pretty much sums it up for me.

So, in your opinion, what wins the game? The first few weeks or months/years down the line?
If a player is new, he can learn and become experienced. If a player is experienced but not adaptable, he will be playing how he would on former worlds and most likely fall imo.

Adaptability is a very valuable, and pretty rare "skill" imo.

(note, I am referring to adaptability as the adaptation of learnt tactics from one world to another rather than the ability to adapt your experience from situation to situation within a world)

 

[Galum]

A)Experience, adaptability and skill doesn’t contradict each other at all.

B)Many of the so called legends (I dislike using that word in reference to a computer game although it is the most suitable one) played large accounts before (qwe4rty, Russki, Bloodhood and Harlos to name a few).

C)I concur that having 15Mil points on W2 doesn't mean you are a good player, although I do agree with Burns here (in a discussion we had a couple of months back) that players who were ranked in the top 10 of a world for at least six month are probably doing something right. You can't throw experience out of the window just because some players succeeded without it; it's still gives you an edge and a better understanding of the game. The settings (besides the church) aren’t different from what have been used several times since W13, most of those "experienced" players played in them before hand and are capable of adapting to the Church just like they adapted to the Weapons Chamber.

The bottom line is that experienced players are better then noobs and experienced adaptable players are more likely to be ranked higher than new adaptable players because they usually have a better understanding of the game mechanics and finer points.

 

[DeletedUser]

Note: What you are about to read is not a spam post/thread and is rather long so those with a short attention span, turn your e-heads away now and click off this thread :icon_eek:

Yesterday and today, since I made the Skype chat convo, I've realised how much people value/use the term "Experience(d)" as an excuse as to why they're different from other tribes/players. Therefore I decided to spark up a discussion that I did on W28/W25 and see how opinions would differ on this new type of world as due the such settings, relying on experience Imo wont work(Imo = In my opinion)lol

Moving onto the purpose/1st part of this thread, Experience Vs Adaptibility. It has come to my attention(yet again :icon_eek that many people, both on this and pretty much every single world rely on experience as almost a "threat"(So many uses of 1 word :icon_redface to scare and in some cases "brag".

Experience:

Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in or exposure to that thing or event. The history of the word experience aligns it closely with the concept of experiment. Here's my version of those great fail type images which tend to be over-used :lol:

Adaptibility:

Adjusts planned work by gathering relevant information and applying critical thinking to address multiple demands and competing priorities in a changing environment. So in simpler words, it's the ability to change (or be changed) to fit changed circumstances.
Again, time for my google/gimp editted fail type pic!icon_razz

So, what seperates the two? Which is more important? What would you rather have? What do they show?

As my great ex/mentor PP(Purple Predator, Not Premium Points :icon_eek said before, the thing that seperates an avergage player from the better player is Situational Awareness. Does experience only make you play on a world that you are accustomed too or does it make you adapt?

In my opinion experience(Over 500k-1 million) on another world only shows you have standard knowledge. You can play upto millions without getting into any real fights. Joining a dominant continent tribe at the start, once that fails, join the new largest and continue having no real threats in your area with the ability to challenge you for your villages. Experience doesn't mean you can launch of several nukes from different villages in a very short amount of time. It doesn't show you have the ability to snipe 1 second noble trains. Nor does it show you know what you're doing.

The majority of these, what you classify as "elite"/"legends" haven't played a world upto 1 million points. Yet they show a clear consistency in achieving a top 20 spot on any world they play. Surely this is a result of acquiring the quality; adaptability instead of experience?

Again Imo, Adaptability is the better quality to possess. It shows you have the ability to adapt to any given situation and any variables which can be different on any/every world you play. Examples are, relying more on resource camps and less on farming when you have no greys in your 13x13 incomparison to having 15 greys in your 13x13 which obviously makes you switch your style of play to a more actively farming style and pushing for LC early on.

Now, moving onto the second part; World 30 Settings. Here I'll attempt to discuss/go through the settings of the world and add and explain anything I can as to the purpose, what it'll encourage, my general views on it etc. So let's start by taking a look at these settings and I'll address them 1 by 1:

Speed: 1 - Pretty slow. Will give those with less time to play Tw in general an option of playing. Inevitably increases the density of the world. However, the slow setting has also restricted some of the more "experienced"/"better" players from playing it as they can't bare such slow pace gaming.

Unit Speed: 1 - Pretty much same as above. Not too fast. Farming takes hours usually. Especially when using several farming parties early world which include spears with swords. Very depressing.

Morale is based on points and time. - There's simply 1 way to explain this so I'll C&P what popped up in the general section of the forum. Credit goes to Vladivar:

Assuming that it is the same as the time based morale on some of the closed worlds (like w6), it will mean that say you have 3 people:

A - joined the world on day 1 and grew to 500k points
B - joined the world on day 1 and grew to 50k points
C - joined the world late and grew to 50k points

Now on purely points based morale, A attacks either B or C and suffers the same morale penalty. On points and time based morale, the morale percentage of A attacking B would be higher than the morale percentage of A attacking C.

So basically, the points give a certain morale penalty but then time is factored in so that a small player who has been on the world longer than a similar sized small player will have less of a morale penalty to attack.

Paladins are active WITH Items - This brings the element of luck into the game. Depending on how lucky you are(I'm the unluckiest no-life on TW)icon_cry, this could mean the difference between a win and a lose in battle between an opponent. If your opponent goes heavy swords and you luckily get the LC weapon, you'll minimize losses aswell as winning the battle, taking you a shorter time to re-build the nuke fully etc (like dominoes, it goes on). Same reasoning with the other weapons. Opposite scenario with the defensive weapons, could mean the difference of you defending the attack successfully or not.

So, what are the additional bonus items added/replaced to the usual ones?

New Bonus Items:

Paracelsus' Longsword:
Increases the offensive fighting power of your Swordsmen by 40% and their defensive fighting power by 30%.
Thorgard's Battle Axe:
Increases the offensive fighting power of your Axemen by 40% and their defensive fighting power by 30%.
Carol's morning star:
Increases the damage caused by rams by 100%. Additionally, the wall will be more damaged during the first phase
Aletheia's Bonfire:
Increases the damage by catapults by 100%. Additionally, the defence of catapults increases by 1000%.

What ammuses me most out of these weapons is Aletheia's Bonfire. As the church settings restrict your final troop space to 9k-12k, people will be using different village builds aswell as different defences. 1 Defence which will be popular/on offer is the Catapult defence. The type you use can vary from 1.125k - 1.5k to 2.5k Spears, 500 HC, 50 Scouts, 500 Cats sometimes adding more cats, less HC vice versa. Although these D's wont be as strong as a 20k D, you need to adapt and make the best of what you've got aka 9-12k farm/troop space.

Bonus Villages are active - Will increase non-player nobling. However, normal "against nobling grey" players may consider this in-order to create a cluster due to the new feature; the Church. This is also made up for in the new types of bonus villages added which vary from 30% of all resource types to 50% recruitment faster in stables as you may want to work out a D and O for those villages especially so you can have a D/O nuke finished at roughly the same time(efficent and fast).

Barbarians do grow up to 1500 Points. - Not much really. Will be better farming to a certain extent in-comparison to non-growing barb worlds. Will lower the amount of late in-game grey ennoblements creating more warfare.

Gold Coins + Simple Research - Newb settings. Imo the new features/current settings of W30 bring enough strategy and will consume more then enough time so this doesn't really bother me.

Tribe Limit: 60 - I like alot. It'll create difficult decisions to be made in-regards to how many continents tribes wish to dominate based on ability, time and will. Will tribes aim to dominate 1 continent with 60 or 2 continents with 30 each? Will they split it up to a 20:40 ratio depending on quality of players or quality of competition. 1 core continent and 1 rim continent or 2 core? 1 wrong decision could inevitably lead to failure.

Church is active - Without doubt the most interesting/best feature of W30. This brings alot of logic and strategy into the game it's very under-estimated. Early world we wont have much to do with it but later on you will. There's so much enabled with this feature. Disguising your church villages with the non-church villages, building O's or D's in them? Nobling 10 greys in your 7x7 to create a cluster? What do you do? Your initial guess is as good as mine until we bring the logic and stats into it


Hope you enjoyed.

Optimus Prime
Leader of T*F

I feel I have to make the case against popular opinion here.

The general premise of the thread (which was well written, btw) is that you are either experienced or you are adaptible. Sadly this is never the case with anyone worth their salt in this game.

Anyone worth a damn who is experienced also knows how to adapt. TW settings are changing all the time, if people have experienced success its because of their ability to adapt to :

• New settings
• New surroundings
• New general standard of gameplay

If the player in question can honestly call themselves experienced and yet not tasted real success, then in a nutshell they are worthless because they have had sufficient time in which to gain success.

On the other hand, you cannot adapt if you do not have experience. Adaption is a change, a deviation from what you already know. For this you need to know something in the first place. I.E. have experience.

Experience and adaptivity go hand in hand where ever there is a quality player. We cannot split the isssue into two polar qualities as though one has to choose between the two.
You'll need both if you're going to make it big.
Keep in mind that one hit wonder, cookie cutter vets who've only succeeded in one server is not my definition of a quality player.
Im sure there are lots of good players who only play a single server, but until and unless they have had sucess in differnt servers (perhaps at different times) all they have proven is that they are sucessful with one particular setting and geopolitical demographic.
They have not proven that they are versatile. They have not proven that they are all round complete quality players.

The people who do well in this server are the people who do well in every world they play.
This is because they are experienced, they are adaptive and they have a heck of a lot more than just those two factors going for them.

 

[Ripfin]

what i find funny is that some people think Experiance is not adaptability, problem is ea. world is constantly changing in one form or another from rule changes to attack changes, if a person is experianced he/she is able to adapt since if he/she cannot then they will die early on.

you people in the newer worlds have it easier when I played world 2 rules were changing all the time, and people were learning new strategies, so most people from the early worlds know all about adaptability.

 

[Pajuno]

I feel I have to make the case against popular opinion here.

The general premise of the thread (which was well written, btw) is that you are either experienced or you are adaptible. Sadly this is never the case with anyone worth their salt in this game.

Anyone worth a damn who is experienced also knows how to adapt. TW settings are changing all the time, if people have experienced success its because of their ability to adapt to :

• New settings
• New surroundings
• New general standard of gameplay

If the player in question can honestly call themselves experienced and yet not tasted real success, then in a nutshell they are worthless because they have had sufficient time in which to gain success.

On the other hand, you cannot adapt if you do not have experience. Adaption is a change, a deviation from what you already know. For this you need to know something in the first place. I.E. have experience.

Experience and adaptivity go hand in hand where ever there is a quality player. We cannot split the isssue into two polar qualities as though one has to choose between the two.
You'll need both if you're going to make it big.
Keep in mind that one hit wonder, cookie cutter vets who've only succeeded in one server is not my definition of a quality player.
Im sure there are lots of good players who only play a single server, but until and unless they have had sucess in differnt servers (perhaps at different times) all they have proven is that they are sucessful with one particular setting and geopolitical demographic.
They have not proven that they are versatile. They have not proven that they are all round complete quality players.

The people who do well in this server are the people who do well in every world they play.
This is because they are experienced, they are adaptive and they have a heck of a lot more than just those two factors going for them.

Agreed completely.

Hence when i finally learned to really play TW, i waited for a world to start anew... And this will be this world.

Now somewhere before, someone posted about the church being hard for old world players to adapt too... I am from world 6, played that world since the begining. I happened to know someone whom to bother with my questions on what to expect and what to do in a new world.. i knew the right questions to ask, and we shall see if it gets me anywhere.

But i think personally, that those with the adaptability tend to get the experience faster and better than those that cant adapt. I believe the word is cookie cutter strat?? Either you see that differences or you dont... and we shall see soon enough, eh??

Shout out to world 6 players. Appears this may be a W6 reunion this world?