Discussion: Update to version 8.27

DeletedUser94483

Guest
It comes down to the same reasoning why we have to wait 60 days to gift out our premium it is the same concept and makes sense.
 

Asylum Escapee

Guest
I get the concept of chargebacks, however there is a serious lack of viable payment options now. paypal and credit card are unusable, so I am left with bank transfer and skrill, whatever that is. I wish there was a way to opt-out of ever charging back a purchase so that I would be able to use my PP right away.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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for gifting prem yes i understand that but for market trades and offers it doesnt...

if players are buying 1500 at a time or so and they want to use it to buy resources off the market, then they should be able to do that, not make them wait 60 days to do so.

some players may spend 1500 in a week or so, then they will buy it again and again and again. thus giving inno games money. however taking that away from the players is also taking that away from innogames as they wont be gaining the profits.

they added these new features in to make more profit, but now they are taking it away.. if they want players to spend pp then get rid of the 60 day waiting period.

60 day waiting period for transferring PP from account to account is understandable as it stops players from going onto accounts to coplay and moving it onto there own accounts...
 

DeletedUser94483

Guest
Yes but you are ignoring a basic principle....if a player bought that 1500 every week and shipped it out through the market it is the SAME as gifting that pop out.
 

DeletedUser656

Guest
isnt it just like cutting your own throats???

Yes. Which is why it should be clear that we have only made the change because it is absolutely necessary. While the old system was preferable, it opened us up to fraud and also made possible an exploit that allowed untransferable points to be converted into transferable points.

Please note that other markets such as Germany have had the restriction for a couple of months already.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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how has it opened you up to fraud???

you have different methods of buying prem, some let you transfer and others to not.
 

DeletedUser656

Guest
how has it opened you up to fraud???

you have different methods of buying prem, some let you transfer and others to not.

Right. The methods that let you transfer are considered "final". There is no possibility for the customer to reverse them.

The ones that have a waiting period are not final, they can be reversed at any time by the customer with an additional fee for us. That is why we require the premium accounts to remain on or invested into your account until a chargeback or reversal is no longer possible. If a customer fraudulently does a chargeback on a purchase we are able to reclaim the points or ban the account until they have repaid the amount.

If the points have been transferred to another account, that is no longer possible. The currency has spread. Now imagine someone purchases 200k of Premium Points every day using a stolen credit card and asks his friends to accept market trades for him. They then transfer the points back to another account. This account can now give away stolen points to all of his friends, or worse, sell them, undercutting us as a business. This is not a hypothetical situation - it happens.

The restriction on market trading is in place for exactly the same reason as the restriction on transferring points has always been there. It's not something new.
 

rickyson1

Contributing Poster
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I find the fact that the default market screen has been changed to trade highly annoying

it leads to me having to do a lot of unnecessary clicking i've never had to do before and it just feels wrong that you have to click while in a market to even see what resources are incoming and when
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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yes some people may stoop as low as stealing a card to benifit themselves or others.

however that card must have atleast £1610 to buy 200k pp..

yes this may have happened in the past, or may be happening now. but the majority of players here which im only guessing 99% of them are are honest and not doing the above.

If a customer fraudulently does a chargeback on a purchase we are able to reclaim the points or ban the account until they have repaid the amount.

so if a player places the pp on the market and ask his friends to accept not only will his friends accept but anyone on the market could accept, does that mean anyone who accepts will be handling stolen goods. and if that is the case will all players which are involved be banned?

you say undercutting your business, however the person just spent £1610 on PP, he would have to sell at a higher price than what he actually bought it for and why would anyone do that??? when they could just go straight to INNO and buy it like that??

when a new world opens say 30k players join, and lets say maybe 5k of them buy premium of 1500 that is £19 per 1500 pp so inno would make £95000. and you are talking about 1 person who may under cut your business by buying 200k pp.

if a world lasts for say 2 years, and in that time you have 1 tribe with 60 members who each buys PP for both AM and Premium, 24 months using 9600 prem per player (about £80 per player spent) that is for the tribe £4800. that isnt including the new P2W features like fast build, instant build, flag purchase, cheap nobles and increased resource pits.

you have multiple servers across the world, even if you have a couple of people who will stoop to the point of theft to buy PP it wont harm the business to much, it would barely scratch what it is earning.
 

DeletedUser656

Guest
yes some people may stoop as low as stealing a card to benifit themselves or others.

however that card must have atleast £1610 to buy 200k pp..

yes this may have happened in the past, or may be happening now. but the majority of players here which im only guessing 99% of them are are honest and not doing the above.



so if a player places the pp on the market and ask his friends to accept not only will his friends accept but anyone on the market could accept, does that mean anyone who accepts will be handling stolen goods. and if that is the case will all players which are involved be banned?

you say undercutting your business, however the person just spent £1610 on PP, he would have to sell at a higher price than what he actually bought it for and why would anyone do that??? when they could just go straight to INNO and buy it like that??

when a new world opens say 30k players join, and lets say maybe 5k of them buy premium of 1500 that is £19 per 1500 pp so inno would make £95000. and you are talking about 1 person who may under cut your business by buying 200k pp.

if a world lasts for say 2 years, and in that time you have 1 tribe with 60 members who each buys PP for both AM and Premium, 24 months using 9600 prem per player (about £80 per player spent) that is for the tribe £4800. that isnt including the new P2W features like fast build, instant build, flag purchase, cheap nobles and increased resource pits.

you have multiple servers across the world, even if you have a couple of people who will stoop to the point of theft to buy PP it wont harm the business to much, it would barely scratch what it is earning.

I'm sorry you disagree with the restriction, but arguing with made up figures against a company that clearly has access to the true figures along with departments dedicated to analytics, fraud prevention, finance and payments won't achieve anything.

Not to mention that you're trying to tell us what would happen about something we've already done and seen the results of on other markets.

On a side note: The entire point of a credit card is that you don't need to have that amount of money. That's why it's a "credit" card.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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You are now contradicting yourself 1st of all you say that it isn't a hypothetical situation and now you're saying with made up facts. You have all these different teams doing different jobs. You say you can get to the true facts then show us, show us how many times let say in the last 9 months how many times situations of fraud which has happened.

About the credit card there are many types of cards. Some won't have limits while others will. I understand on the main pay method of putting details in and paying but on PayPal where you need to actually log in and pay then it seems a bit over the top.
 

DeletedUser656

Guest
You are now contradicting yourself 1st of all you say that it isn't a hypothetical situation and now you're saying with made up facts. You have all these different teams doing different jobs. You say you can get to the true facts then show us, show us how many times let say in the last 9 months how many times situations of fraud which has happened.

About the credit card there are many types of cards. Some won't have limits while others will. I understand on the main pay method of putting details in and paying but on PayPal where you need to actually log in and pay then it seems a bit over the top.

I don't think you read what I said properly, there was no contradiction.

Just as if you'd asked any other private owned company, we're very obviously not going to release that kind of financial information.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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I don't think you read what I said properly, there was no contradiction.

Just as if you'd asked any other private owned company, we're very obviously not going to release that kind of financial information.


so this isnt contradicting yourself????


If the points have been transferred to another account, that is no longer possible. The currency has spread. Now imagine someone purchases 200k of Premium Points every day using a stolen credit card and asks his friends to accept market trades for him. They then transfer the points back to another account. This account can now give away stolen points to all of his friends, or worse, sell them, undercutting us as a business. This is not a hypothetical situation - it happens.


I'm sorry you disagree with the restriction, but arguing with made up figures against a company that clearly has access to the true figures along with departments dedicated to analytics, fraud prevention, finance and payments won't achieve anything.


you say it happens and then say it is made up figures. how is that not contradicting yourself?????

you have all this data but you cant prove it us. it could be 1 case or 10k cases. prove it to us, that it does happen....
 

DeletedUser656

Guest
so this isnt contradicting yourself????

you say it happens and then say it is made up figures. how is that not contradicting yourself?????

you have all this data but you cant prove it us. it could be 1 case or 10k cases. prove it to us, that it does happen....

Erm.. you're the one that's arguing against the company.. thus the made up figures were yours. Why would we be the ones arguing against ourselves? That makes no sense. Especially after I said "I'm sorry you disagree with the restriction..."

We are not required to "prove" anything to you. If you don't believe our reasoning then there's no point in you asking us about it.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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so you cant say how many fraud cases which you have had?

you are a large company, you have the facts and figures of Fraud you have closed the loop holes to stop it from happening so why you cannot show us the figures#?? it does seem you are scared to of showing the figures.

there is roughly 130 million players registered with innogames, at the end of 2012 innogames generated about 50 million Euros in revenue.

even if a 100k players fraudulently bought premium on any of the markets it wouldnt even scratch the surface of legitimate players. yes they shouldnt be doing it and there should be consequences of them doing it.

but with paypal they would have to know the owners paypal email and password not only there card details.

so i dont think the 60 day waiting period on that is needed especially as you you dont have it on any of the other methods of buying.
 

DeletedUser656

Guest
Your opinion is noted, but is based on an extremely flawed train of thought which I'm not particularly interested in trying to clarify further as my past few attempts have been mostly ignored or misunderstood. This is made obvious by your insistence that Paypal payments should not have a waiting period, despite already have explained the difference between final transactions and transactions that can be reversed. If you wish to learn more, I'm sure there are countless books and courses on the matter online.

It won't be changed.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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ok fine, another question though why put such a ridiculous time limit of the premium which was given due to the awards?

5 years i have to wait to move prem to my main account, i cannot say i will be playing in 5 years or will the game still be around by then.

cant you just remove the time limit?????
 

DeletedUser94483

Guest
That is another item that makes sense. I myself have about 7-8 accounts I have had access to ownership wise for the last 6 years...if I threw all that premium together it would be a MAJOR boon for myself(I know of players with access/own alot more accounts so mine is only minor example of my belief of why there is a time limit like so). Though I do believe GIFTED premium should be set up to be separate or some way to set premium aside as separate so that you do not eat up your giftable premium doing your normal account maintenance.
 

pokemonEX.co.UK

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i got 3-4 accounts only 2 active accounts, whatever account im not using i move the prem onto my main account so i dont have to re buying pp when i have spare available.

the other accounts i might not use again, but they are there incase i need to hide or something ;)

but the prem on those accounts is sitting there and would be much more beneficial if i can move it across to the main account
 
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