Evening

setorines

Guest
The terms "experienced" and "pro" mean the same thing. If your intention was to say that an experienced player not using premium features will beat an experienced player that is using p2w features (which is how it reads). Then your statement is a non sequitur.

Obviously they mean the same thing that's how it was intended. The point if you couldn't catch it was that it doesn't matter who's using the prem Skill is what counts.

If two players are "good" how do you define which is the better one? Why are you concluding that a good player that doesn't use p2w features will beat a good player that does? The rest of the paragraph you list a lot of random hypothetical scenarios that bare no relevance at all to whether p2w options give someone an advantage. Red herring fallacy 101.

The one who is fortunate enough to snipe the others train and send a backtime that the other guy can't dodge is the better one. Perhaps a bit of luck can come in there, but it mostly comes down to skill. Notice I'm listing the same things here. The farm 29 vs farm 27 doesn't matter if your train is cut and you get backtimed. Simple as that. your advantage from using prem is gone because someone that was skilled out played you.

Again you're assuming that all the players using these p2w features are idiots that do not know what they're doing.

That was never said. As a matter of fact most of the skilled players that know what they are doing have sold on prior worlds and stepped into the world with something like 15K prem and just destroyed it. Good for them. But they can only keep that up for so long before they start selling res to get some premium back. With that said why does it matter if that's what their doing? You think they have a huge advantage because they spent a world collecting on premium instead of trying to hit rank 1? Why don't you do it? If they are close enough to you to cripple your growth then they are close enough to you to buy off of you as well.

Responses in bold
 

Aliyah

Guest
Lisa, none of us is here to play this game for its graphic. We can chose many other games, if graphic is the one that interests us. No, we are here to play a strategy game that has an awful graphic, still, despites the efforts to improve, like you already showed. The game improved by adding scripts and things we weren't able to use old times. This is the change that matters for us, not adding an warrion in the background and make the page more brown.

Old days were about each of us skills and power to find solutions to overplay others around us by our own skills and abilities. :) It is about how we handled the idea of losing and how much some of us were stubborn to accept the defeat and fight till end. Also, it was about PNPs and how much effort players invested to make the game better.

It has nothing to do with Inno , but we thank them for all their efforts ;)
Never said it was Ara. I said the images had nothing to do with what you were saying specifically. I was just adding my thoughts to the conversation, as a player.

I didn't post to defend why it isn't the same anymore - I could think of multiple reasons - I just posted offering my own thoughts and wondering if anyone had any that were more substantial than ... it's because of the introduction of premium features. I personally prefer the premium feature additions. However I enjoyed playing the game more in years gone by - but I'm not sure if that's just because lots of things are more fun when you start them and we always look back fondly on them. Looking at the page of the old style just made me realize I probably wouldn't even attempt to play it now, if it still looked like that.
 

arabela

Guest
I know you mentioned it doesn't have much to do what I said, even it was a reply to my thoughts, not a general post reflecting how you see it now compared to old times.

Idea is, i would probably play it even graphic would be still same, cause if i wouldn't see the new format, i wouldn't know it can be better (the warrior and the brown background and scripts, and w/e). So, i can bet none of us joined this game for the graphic (when we joined), or the scripts. So, yes, you probably wouldn't try to play it again, but my thoughts as player, are that most of us would still join this game, and wouldn't care about the brown background. I am more annoyed when Core posts in pink, tbh :D (this is the only moment when my eyes bleed)
 

Tata Steel

Guest
Obviously they mean the same thing that's how it was intended. The point if you couldn't catch it was that it doesn't matter who's using the prem Skill is what counts.
In that case you're just wrong, I can only advise to look back at the arguments I have made in previous posts because I would only be repeating myself.

The one who is fortunate enough to snipe the others train and send a backtime that the other guy can't dodge is the better one. Perhaps a bit of luck can come in there, but it mostly comes down to skill. Notice I'm listing the same things here. The farm 29 vs farm 27 doesn't matter if your train is cut and you get backtimed. Simple as that. your advantage from using prem is gone because someone that was skilled out played you.
What does any of that have to do with the effect p2w features have on the game? You are only putting forward hypothetical scenarios that support your claim, and ignoring all the other scenarios that don't, therefore your argument is based on a fallacious line of reasoning and is thus invalid because it is illogical.

That was never said. As a matter of fact most of the skilled players that know what they are doing have sold on prior worlds and stepped into the world with something like 15K prem and just destroyed it. Good for them. But they can only keep that up for so long before they start selling res to get some premium back. With that said why does it matter if that's what their doing? You think they have a huge advantage because they spent a world collecting on premium instead of trying to hit rank 1? Why don't you do it? If they are close enough to you to cripple your growth then they are close enough to you to buy off of you as well.
This is what I bolded from your quote: "Premium gives you a short hand advantage, but the growth of someone who knows what their doing will pass up the growth of those who are just throwing their wallets at the screen."

In the part I left bolded you are implying that players who are using the p2w features are doing it without thinking. What basis and or evidence do you have to believe this? There is none, hence why I said you're assuming they're idiots and do not know what they're doing.

The rest of what you said in that paragraph has nothing to do with the effect p2w features have on the game.

I'm going to express the argument as simply as I can for you:

1. P2w features give an advantage.
Therefore:
2. A player that purchases p2w features has an advantage.

Now by arguing that in the scenario we discussed of; 2 experienced players located near each other, the player whom is not using p2w features will beat a player that is using these p2w features, from the above expressed argument we can see that your assumption is illogical. It should not logically happen.

To make the distinction even clearer I refer back to my first example of you facing an identical clone of yourself. Do you think that a clone of yourself would be able to defeat you if your clone was not allowed to use p2w features, whereas you were allowed to use them continuously? The answer is no. I rest my case and I'm not going to argue about it anymore because your position has been indefensible from the start.
 

Frozen Flaim

Guest
Hmm, i'd be interested to discover your IGN Tata Steel, because from these posts i'd imagine that you're a player that is regularly beaten by sombody using p2w features, and rather than just improve your game, you come on these forums and act all butthurt about it.

There are numerous things you have said which i do agree with, but there are also numerous arguments from others that i agree with also. This whole "my opinion is right, yours is wrong so i'm going to argue with whatever you say" attitude is getting annoying though. If numerous players are saying the same thing, then reason suggests that there is at least some truth to back it up, and simply going out of your way to disprove them with your over wordy responses just makes you look a bit daft.

The simple truth is, what works for some people won't work for others. There are numerous variables that affect every new world. It's perfectly possible for a good player to win a world without using p2w, and it's just as possible for a good player to get rimmed inside a month whilst using p2w if they screw up or get unlucky. Your argument that a player with PP would beat the same one without using them is completely irrelevent, because no two start up area's are ever the same, and an active player with the best area and good skill will always grow faster than an equally good player using PP in a bad area.

An interesting discussion anyway, but it'd be far more productive if you simply accepted the truth of certain points raised against you, rather than simply dismissing them in favour of your own opinion. An opinion is never wrong just because you don't agree with it. :icon_wink:
 
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KutiyaKripya

Guest
Lisa, none of us is here to play this game for its graphic. We can chose many other games, if graphic is the one that interests us. No, we are here to play a strategy game that has an awful graphic, still, despites the efforts to improve, like you already showed. The game improved by adding scripts and things we weren't able to use old times. This is the change that matters for us, not adding an warrion in the background and make the page more brown.

Old days were about each of us skills and power to find solutions to overplay others around us by our own skills and abilities. :) It is about how we handled the idea of losing and how much some of us were stubborn to accept the defeat and fight till end. Also, it was about PNPs and how much effort players invested to make the game better.

It has nothing to do with Inno , but we thank them for all their efforts ;)
So very true Ara.
 

setorines

Guest
In that case you're just wrong, I can only advise to look back at the arguments I have made in previous posts because I would only be repeating myself.


What does any of that have to do with the effect p2w features have on the game? You are only putting forward hypothetical scenarios that support your claim, and ignoring all the other scenarios that don't, therefore your argument is based on a fallacious line of reasoning and is thus invalid because it is illogical.



This is what I bolded from your quote: "Premium gives you a short hand advantage, but the growth of someone who knows what their doing will pass up the growth of those who are just throwing their wallets at the screen."

In the part I left bolded you are implying that players who are using the p2w features are doing it without thinking. What basis and or evidence do you have to believe this? There is none, hence why I said you're assuming they're idiots and do not know what they're doing.

The rest of what you said in that paragraph has nothing to do with the effect p2w features have on the game.

I'm going to express the argument as simply as I can for you:

1. P2w features give an advantage.
Therefore:
2. A player that purchases p2w features has an advantage.

Now by arguing that in the scenario we discussed of; 2 experienced players located near each other, the player whom is not using p2w features will beat a player that is using these p2w features, from the above expressed argument we can see that your assumption is illogical. It should not logically happen.

To make the distinction even clearer I refer back to my first example of you facing an identical clone of yourself. Do you think that a clone of yourself would be able to defeat you if your clone was not allowed to use p2w features, whereas you were allowed to use them continuously? The answer is no. I rest my case and I'm not going to argue about it anymore because your position has been indefensible from the start.
I'm done repeating myself here after this: Using premium does give you an advantage in points. But that doesn't matter if someone is more skilled. Actual skill is what counts every time.

Also, the clone would without a doubt beat me. I would be ready to noble first and I would launch my train at the best player in the area, that being my clone. My clone would then cut and backtime my train. Then take his sweet ass time building up a train and taking me.

What I think you're butthurt about is you're getting on a world with premium features you're looking at the top 20 and saying "That's impossible there's no way they can be that good!" and then assuming they are just swimming in premium instead of upping your own farming and getting that good. You're the same player that gets on a non premium world and says co-players should be banned because they give an unfair advantage. Adapt to the settings and play the game.
 
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thisislevi

Guest
I'm done repeating myself here after this: Using premium does give you an advantage in points. But that doesn't matter if someone is more skilled. Actual skill is what counts every time.

Also, the clone would without a doubt beat me. I would be ready to noble first and I would launch my train at the best player in the area, that being my clone. My clone would then cut and backtime my train. Then take his sweet ass time building up a train and taking me.

What I think you're butthurt about is you're getting on a world with premium features you're looking at the top 20 and saying "That's impossible there's no way they can be that good!" and then assuming they are just swimming in premium instead of upping your own farming and getting that good. You're the same player that gets on a non premium world and says co-players should be banned because they give an unfair advantage. Adapt to the settings and play the game.
uhm what...if you and your clone both have the same skill how would you making a bad play prove that premium points does not give an advantage o.o....if you knew that you were going to get backtimed and cut anyways isn't that just your fault regardless of premium
 

setorines

Guest
Well this is of course assuming that I don't know it's my clone. Assuming I did know it was my clone I just wouldn't attack. Like period my sleep times are too sporadic to catch offline reliably so I can't run a nuke without nobles to clear first, and I would know my train would be cut. I would instead start nobling other villages and leave me be. But knowing how I farm if there are 2 people there then other good villages won't exist. It'll be turtles with high mines as the best bet. I mean that's why I'm already dealing with, when there are just one of me.
 

thisislevi

Guest
But if it's your clone without premium then the village probably wouldn't even be as good as you make it out to be so why would you want to go for it anyways? If you have the same skill as your clone with premium you would be getting more res so you would probably have more troops than your clone too...more troops, points, and res...is kinda an advantage...just saying
 

setorines

Guest
I would have more troops, points and res, but if I were playing with an unlimited supply of premium I'll tell you now I would be rank 1. lol Farming heavy and buying a billion res? There wouldn't be another 8K village in the area for me to take. Just the 3K one that me without premium had. But from experience I can tell you that not putting money into the game doesn't mean not having premium. My clone would sell excess and use that prem assuming it was allowed for this scenario. If not then oh well. He would still know how to cut and backtime when I sent my train, so what's it matter?
 

Frozen Flaim

Guest
Just pointing this out, but cloning players isn't actually possible, so why the hell does any of this matter? Irrelevant drivel.
 

DeletedUser111495

Guest
How does someone measure skill in this game? just saying 2 people having the exact same skill would be rare.
 

Tata Steel

Guest
Hmm, i'd be interested to discover your IGN Tata Steel, because from these posts i'd imagine that you're a player that is regularly beaten by sombody using p2w features, and rather than just improve your game, you come on these forums and act all butthurt about it.
That is irrelevant to whether an argument is correct or not.

There are numerous things you have said which i do agree with, but there are also numerous arguments from others that i agree with also. This whole "my opinion is right, yours is wrong so i'm going to argue with whatever you say" attitude is getting annoying though. If numerous players are saying the same thing, then reason suggests that there is at least some truth to back it up, and simply going out of your way to disprove them with your over wordy responses just makes you look a bit daft.
I have only refuted arguments that have been illogical.

The simple truth is, what works for some people won't work for others. There are numerous variables that affect every new world. It's perfectly possible for a good player to win a world without using p2w, and it's just as possible for a good player to get rimmed inside a month whilst using p2w if they screw up or get unlucky. Your argument that a player with PP would beat the same one without using them is completely irrelevent, because no two start up area's are ever the same, and an active player with the best area and good skill will always grow faster than an equally good player using PP in a bad area.
Not it is not. It is relevant because it simplifies the argument to a level that points out the illogical fallacies of someone holding the view that: p2w features do not give the player using them an advantage.

An interesting discussion anyway, but it'd be far more productive if you simply accepted the truth of certain points raised against you, rather than simply dismissing them in favour of your own opinion. An opinion is never wrong just because you don't agree with it. :icon_wink:
Why should; I or anyone, accept a statement as being true, if the statement can be proven to be false using basic logic? If someone is offended by a statement they have made being shown to make no sense, they should take more care in the way they express their statements, especially when they're trying to pass their statements off as being factual/true.

Also, the clone would without a doubt beat me. I would be ready to noble first and I would launch my train at the best player in the area, that being my clone. My clone would then cut and backtime my train. Then take his sweet ass time building up a train and taking me.
That is the funniest thing I have read on the forums for some time.

From a superior position you would deliberately use a strategy that you expect to fail :icon_rolleyes:...

Just pointing this out, but cloning players isn't actually possible, so why the hell does any of this matter? Irrelevant drivel.
The purpose is to express the argument in a basic form that shows how illogical it is to hold the view that: p2w features do not give an advantage.

If you want we can change the example to: two bots programmed the same way, one can continuously use p2w features the other can't. Who wins?

That is how unreasonable it is to believe p2w features do not give an advantage.
 

DeletedUser111495

Guest
Hmm, i'd be interested to discover your IGN Tata Steel, because from these posts i'd imagine that you're a player that is regularly beaten by sombody using p2w features, and rather than just improve your game, you come on these forums and act all butthurt about it.
That is irrelevant to whether an argument is correct or not.
But its kinda relevant to his post above is it not? just another coward hiding behind a name.
 

Mr.Moyles

Guest
Seems I have started a good conversation here :) I am enjoying reading peoples arguments for each point.

I would get involved, but I only have points for the old game, I am not the best on the new game YET! But am sure ill get there, I have went an co-played another player in Shrekd! learning the ropes again HEHE!
 

Tata Steel

Guest
But its kinda relevant to his post above is it not? just another coward hiding behind a name.
He is committing a red herring fallacy known as the "appeal to accomplishment". Whether or not I am good at this game bears no relevance to whether my argument is correct or not, that is why I said his statement was irrelevant. Furthermore he has made no attempts to refute any of the arguments I have put forward, instead he has used red herrings to draw attention away from the subject of the argument.
 

nightmaresc2

Guest
This has gone way off topic, and this argument is stupid, of course you have an unfair advantage of using PP over someone that doesn't ... anyone with Parkinsons can see that

he is whining about it like a little baby, but who cares, PP is easy to earn and use yourself
 

Frozen Flaim

Guest
I think people are missing my basic point. The discussion is whether p2w causes an unfair advantage, yes? Well with the fairly recent update that allows players to buy PP for in game resources, p2w features are now available for everyone to use without the need for real money.

So now that every player in the world can use p2w for free, how is there an unfair advantage? If people choose not to use it then that's up to them, but they have no right to complain about those that do, because it's available to them too.

And yes i'm aware that in order to get PP to start with your growth might be slowed slightly at first due to resource selling, but in late game those resources become insignificant if you farm correctly.

I know certain people will still argue that not having to farm for PP at the start is an advantage, so i'll point out that every single player can create a village on another world and farm PP to use here, so where is the disadvantage if it's completely equal for everyone? The size of your wallet is no longer a factor, and as such the game is no longer unbalanced as i agree it was before the market update.

If people can't accept the truth of these facts then i give up with this topic and leave you to all to argue in peace.
 

thisislevi

Guest
I dunnoooo for that you'd have to rely on the market and that's not really a consistent thing...