Open Discussion Fairness with Flags

One Last Shot...

In-Game Staff
Tribal Wars Team
Team
In my head, the idea for a starter pack would be approximately 5 red and 5 yellow flags so that players start with a reasonable mix of flags, where they get a certain number of flags per 'group' (I've put the groups into 3 categories which hopefully will make sense).

4x Fighting flags (attack/defense/luck)
3x Troop flags (recruitment/population/coin cost)
3x Resource flags (haul/resource)

I think it would be best if they were slightly random, so that there is no guarantee about what a player receives (keeps things fresh and interesting).
 

HotLikeDat

Non-stop Poster
Yeah for sure.

the alternative idea I was thinking of with the temporary flags is - give beginners what they most need!

res & defence! Due to them disappearing this won’t have any significant long term consequences for a world or even micro-area.


whichever way - random could work just as well
 
I think the most "fair" option all around would be for some sort of "beginner pack" (as long as it is lower flags not blues and purples). If they instantly got those higher ones for being new it may be unfair to those middle aged players who have played for a bit, but not enough time to have those high levels. It takes thousands of flags to upgrade up to those highest levels.

If a beginner pack in any way is added to the game I think it should have some sort of block on it so those flags can't be traded for a certain period of time. Otherwise unfortunately there are those players who would just keep creating random new accounts to trade all the good flags to their main account and get rid of ones they don't use.

This way it gets them off to a good start without being at a complete disadvantage.

I think the idea of removing flags from certain worlds isn't a very "fair" option for those that have been around. I know this topic is mainly focused on fairness for new players, but also have to consider those who have played for awhile. Especially since flags for so long have been an option to buy with Premium Points it would upset the players who spent a ton of money getting their flags (admittedly I wouldn't be too mad about that as I have never been a fan of those pay to win players)

Another possible idea would be to limit flags in the beginning of worlds similar to beginner protection.
Perhaps something where flags can't be used during first few weeks or so. That way those players with the maxed out recruit speed/resource ones can't get a huge advantage over the new players and it gives those new players more time to collect some flags.

In summary: I personally like the current system the way it is, but I can see a "beginner pack" type feature being great for the game if made correctly.
 

cotr

New Member
I actually think flags are one of the few remaining fair and practical parts of the game left for new players. Time * effort = more flags.

The best idea I ever heard regarding flags was to scale the cooldown for changing flags. Lower tiers may be changed every hour or 2. Highest tiers could even be increased to 48 hours. It gives new players the flexibility they need to compete and makes experience players really consider if they want to set a high tier attack/defence/coin/res flag that they won't be able to change for 2 days (maybe even longer).

Probably doesn't affect the early game economic advantages but then flags are far and away secondary to PP on that issue anyway.
 

YeOlde Raven

New Member
One of my early impressions of flags were that they were not to be on every world, instead being even number worlds would be flags and odd number worlds being non flag worlds, but they quickly were implemented on all worlds.
One way of levelling the balance for the newer players would be to have a non flag world, maybe every 5 or 10 worlds, then if a new player wanted to be on a level footing they could be while those who have worked to get flags could still use them.

Why are we even having the discussion?
To say that it is not fair suggests players who have played longer have an advantage, but how have they got that advantage?
That is an easy question to answer, through hard work or they have paid for them in the PAST.
Yet there is another degree of fairness not being addressed, that is players spending huge amounts of PP at the start of a world to get an advantage, but there are no limits in place in order to reduce this advantage, the answer to that is simple on why.
That is the PRESENT when income is being made, it doesn't matter about what has been paid for flags as that is in the PAST and the money is already in the coffers.
That would seem the impression anyway.
 

tribalwarz

Active Member
Thing about these "Starter Pack" suggestions (red, yellow,green) is it's VERY easy to make 500pp (and way more, but lets give 500 as example) in few days/a week of playing new world, That will allow you to buy flag package 5 times, which will give you 15 flags. That is EASY solution for new accounts, but once again people don't wanna put in work, would rather be gifted free flags.

I still stand by what I said previously. If someone here has spent past 5 years farming flags/playing worlds and has tons of flags then he deserves advantage over someone like me who has new account. Why should he get screwed over and why should I get free shit I didn't deserve? This game was always about rewarding activity/skills and you did whatever you could to gain advantage over others.
 

One Last Shot...

In-Game Staff
Tribal Wars Team
Team
Thing about these "Starter Pack" suggestions (red, yellow,green) is it's VERY easy to make 500pp (and way more, but lets give 500 as example) in few days/a week of playing new world, That will allow you to buy flag package 5 times, which will give you 15 flags. That is EASY solution for new accounts, but once again people don't wanna put in work, would rather be gifted free flags.
Players who are new won't have the experience of knowledge to understand the benefit of flags, so I have a few questions to help you clarify your position on the matter and give additional thought to the issue being raised :)

What could you add to the game to encourage a brand new player to learn about flags?
How would you teach a brand new player how to make premium ingame?
How could you convince these brand new players to use that premium to buy flags as opposed to resources that help their account to grow more directly?

The topic of this thread isn't about players who know the game (which your comment seems more directed towards), it is about people joining the player base for the very first time :)
 

tribalwarz

Active Member
First of all, new players (if they wanna be competitive) will visit tribal forum/external forum for some guides/help. We all had to learn somehow. I was restarted many times before I learned what I know now. You are not gonna join your first world and finish first unless you are very lucky or have friends to teach you, or you simply have millions of pp to buy and waste lol.

First world (or first few worlds) are just a learning experience.

Now, simply add in-game quests/tutorials for flags/selling resources. Have some short tutorial that explains new player how to use flags, maybe some animation that plays, where its explained how flags work, how its beneficial to have higher lvl flags, and then how to gain them (upgrading low lvl flags to higher levels, animation of clicking on top of flags to upgrade them to next lvl, explanation how you gain flags from achievements, producing noblemans, or buying them). Have some quest for selling premium, like go to market and see premium exchange tab, or sell 64 iron for 1 pp, or something like that.

Also about players deciding between flags and buying resources, well it's very simple, you are not gonna sell resources only to buy them back, that would make 0 sense at the start lol. They would either buy flags or save those points to activate premium features as premium account/farming assistant.
 

valtheran88

Active Member
Flags can't be 'sent' to other accounts. The best that can happen is a like-for-like trade. A player wanting to get rid of 20 grey flags cannot trade them for 20 blue flags. This restriction actually already is a big block to any attempts to 'stockpile' flags and use the suggestion to a player's advantage.

20 gray luck flags for 20 gray res/pop flags would be worth the effort.

So, this prevents players from using this suggestion to gain more flags. The best they could do is trade a same-level flag for one they would prefer. Which they cannot do directly because it would involve owning two accounts on a single world, which would be a multi-accounting breach.

You and I know there are legal ways to make this a thing.


I am not lucky, try it and see for yourself. It's simple logic, nobody is gonna waste precious troops and resources at start of game for small village. Nobody is loosing 4-5 nukes (low moral) to clean 3k village, but whatever, I gave you example on how to make easy flags, but it's easier to complain I guess.

I have only been in .net for 11 years...You are trying to say I have not seen literally hundreds, and thousands of examples of everything you are saying being a crock?

You are complaining about how it's not fair for you now, you've lost your main account and now you have to start over. Well it's your fault (either you forgot pass, or someone changed it I assume?), but I bet if you had account full of max flags you wouldn't be posting here. Btw I gave away account with many flags and 50k prem, and I am not bitching about it, just started all over.

No I am not I am at the point now with my account(my original account just not my original flag account which aged out) where I would not even benefit from this system. As an old school player I am aware of the grind and willing to put it in. If you were able to look up my suggestions I do not make them just for myself but for the betterment of the community as a whole. i am not whining about what is or is not fair to myself. Merely what I suggested when flags FIRST came out. I appreciated then the fact that they were putting something in for legacy players but also stated that their should be something to prevent such a disparity years down the road...7 years later I still believe that. I believed it when I had dozens of black flags on 4 accounts and I still agree with it when a green flag is my highest.

I think here on net I only have yellow flags, maybe few green (I don't need them for what I am doing now) and I don't complain about people who have +18 resources for example, they put in time to play and earn those flags, let them have advantage over me, simple as that,

What's next, completely deactivate haul because new players still don't know how to farm and experienced players are growing too fast due to that? Maybe even disable nobling villages for first few months of server because new players are not familiar with game, and need time to learn it?

You do know that no haul worlds are a thing? Casual worlds and extreme point ratios are a thing to prevent experienced players from attacking/nobling newer players? Literally the things you are saying are already facets of the game.

Replies are in bold.
 

AuroraMoon

Non-stop Poster
didnt read the whole conversation - so my comment may be out of place

but when it comes to making flags fair (or the game for that matter) i doubt it will be possible
due to:
flag farming multiple worlds
the more experienced accounts that have been around longer start with more

people have gained those flags over time (from multiple worlds)
so when it comes to new players being at disadvantage, its kinda built into the game to be that way
and without separating worlds more to remove the "farming" aspects (flags, pp, items if playing casual)
or only allow a certain amount of preselected/random flags from an account to be used on a world, locking all others except those gained on the world
in my opinion the issue will always be there when it comes to overall fairness and the new vs old

however in saying that you could increase the ways of gaining/using flags by:
adding them to the daily bonus (open all chests in a week and gain a flag as a bonus)
trade flags for different amounts of pp (risky but may remove flags slowly from accounts and balance out if flags are locked like pp)
tie them to a players "in a day" records (each time you beat your previous record you gain a flag - 7 categories, 8 types of flags)

side note: you can already trade 100 pp for 3 semi-random flags
 

One Last Shot...

In-Game Staff
Tribal Wars Team
Team
If players do not like the flag system the can play casual, classic, or another game all together. Leave the flag system alone and close this stupid thread.
There is nothing in this thread about disliking the flag system. The thinktank is on how to improve it to ensure that the gap between new players and experienced players isn't insurmountable.

Examples:
New player with grey flags - 4% res production / 6% troop production buffs
Experienced player with black flags - 18% res production / 20% troop production buffs

In early play in particular, this is a massive advantage a new account suffers for, and it is extremely important in any game that new players don't have handicaps to slow them down when they will naturally be slower growing anyway.

The suggestions are all focused on helping give them a starting position with flags that doesn't 'eliminate' the gaps - as players work hard to get those valuable black flags - but mean that during startup the gap isn't quite so big. Either by having worlds without flags periodically, or other alternatives.

It's all about finding the balance between helping new players whilst not taking away from the hard work of experienced players. A tough balance to find.

You have posted 3 times on this thread without actually giving any reasons to justify your opinions. It would be great to see thoughts contributing so that others can see why you have your perspective :)
 

Aretas

Well-Known Member
I think the point that others are trying to point out is that this thread is an oxymoron in itself. The whole point of flags is to give an advantage to accounts that are older and have put more time into the game, or who have spent more pp or revenue for tw, over new accounts and new players who have not put in that time or money. Thus flags are made and designed to give "older" accounts an advantage over "new" accounts. That is their entire function, aside from allowing accounts a general boost in different areas. Thus asking how you can make flags more fair to new accounts already contradicts itself as your asking how to make flags do the opposite of their purpose.

As I said earlier, if TW really wants to do something to contradict the advantages of having good flags vs bad ones, then they should get rid of the "flag booster" item as this allows "old" players to "double" the advantage they already get from flags over new accounts. Also since currently there is no way for new players to know about flag boosters or how to use them, they in reality give "older" accounts even more then double the advantage. For example a new player is likely minting with a grey/brown coin flag or 10-12% coin reduction, having no in game feature to tell them about flag boosters and their use. Meanwhile an account with good flags is minting with a 22-24% flag, that is doubled to make 44-48% coin reduction. This changes the advantage of flags from ~12% difference up to ~34% difference. Quite the advantage indeed for experienced players on accounts with plenty of flags who almost can triple the advantage they get from flags due to having better flags and the "knowledge" of how valuable flag boosters are and how to use them.

If you really want to find a way to help new players out for having worse flags, then either flag boosters need to be gotten rid of completely, or else they need to become part of the "in game quest feature" as otherwise they are being put at a major disadvantage.

If start up is really all that matters in the discussion, then potentially give new accounts a single decent res flag that cannot be traded ever, or maybe make one of the game quests that already reward accounts a flag early on always give a res flag. I believe in the current quest system that people get 1 "red" flag pretty early on, although I don't remember for exactly what off the top of my head. If this "red" flag was always a res flag, then you would ensure new accounts have at min a 8% res flag for start up.
 

cotr

New Member
In early play in particular, this is a massive advantage a new account suffers for
This is incorrect. It's almost a non-factor in the early game due to PP expenditure. Only once you have maxed out res levels does the difference between 4% and 18% really start to show. The tutorial/quest system even takes players off the best economic path so you might want to look there for the early game gap instead of flags. Flags are fair and are not insurmountable.

You have posted 3 times on this thread without actually giving any reasons to justify your opinions. It would be great to see thoughts contributing so that others can see why you have your perspective :)
Iron Lady is literally just giving a +1 to the flags not needing changes. There's plenty of justification in other posts. You've posted more nonsense in this thread than she has. But then I guess that's the criteria for being on the Tribal Wars Team these days....

I think the point that others are trying to point out is that this thread is an oxymoron in itself. The whole point of flags is to give an advantage to accounts that are older and have put more time into the game, or who have spent more pp or revenue for tw, over new accounts and new players who have not put in that time or money. Thus flags are made and designed to give "older" accounts an advantage over "new" accounts. That is their entire function, aside from allowing accounts a general boost in different areas. Thus asking how you can make flags more fair to new accounts already contradicts itself as your asking how to make flags do the opposite of their purpose.
This wins the argument though.
 
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Frying Pan Warrior

Non-stop Poster
The whole point of flags is to give an advantage to accounts that are older and have put more time into the game
This is one of many interpretations of the system. To me, they are an award mechanism; a way to gain points that you save in your account permanently, similar to leveling up your character in an RPG.