Feedback Game Updates

Cassius au Bellona

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as it's no surprise mods have to justify shitty dev decisions and struggle to make it look reasonable, i wonder if people like jirki still feel these updates are for the greater good and are actually good updates.

also, mods don't get paid, if we could get mods that do i reckon a lot would have been more reasonable with botting etc, roleplaying a detective to look for bots/push (even if we provide evverything needed) could not be this hard as mods make it look like, i think it's rather the fact they dont get anything out of it really and just procastinate or ignore it, hire some actual mods like every other game, How about fixing the basic problems instead of cucking dual playing?
 

makobex

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Its not much but atleast some kind of reason to this said by jawjaw on TW Discord.

We all know that botting on Tribal Wars started when it was introduced to Steam
Now everything will be fair again, like it has always been :oops:
 
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wildwang

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Copying my post from the thread that Fl0r made since the project managers are out of touch and need to be more aware of their game community. Or talk to the mods/CMs that play the game.

Cant you guys just have a vote on what the players want and stop trying to GUESS what the players that actually play the game thinks?

@JawJaw tagging you since I think you're a pretty bang on CM. I know the CMs/Mods don't have much say in what gets put/not put into the game, but think it be valuable for the product manager(s?) to at least be aware of how their community plays the game. Not sure why people blame the devs since all they do is code the game lol, but I think the product manager isn't fully aware of this passionate community and how the game is played these days (it's a vastly different scape from even 2 years ago before steam).

I'm also pretty confident innogames isn't a google sized business where they can afford to dump off projects that they invested millions in, as I'm sure that Steam cost you guys a pretty penny. The majority of players only use it for co-playing. Might have gotten you guys that initial userbase, but have fun spending millions more maintaining a different codebase that no one uses and that you eventually scrap (been there done that).
 

DJ300

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worse decision in ages to remove both steam and browser working together, shows another clear lack of understanding between tw mods/devs and there community. after reading that they are blaming it on "botting" seems like another excuse considering that was an issue before the steam versions release. you guys legit are so out of touch its insane.


Guess that answers the question if any Devs are still playing TW… Big L for INNO today with the Steam changes.

quoting this because its true the dev's don't play this game anymore yet make random crappy changes.
 

One Last Shot...

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after reading that they are blaming it on "botting" seems like another excuse considering that was an issue before the steam versions release.

I don't think anybody is claiming that this update will stop all botting. And definitely haven't seen anybody claim that Steam caused all botting.

Any update that will help reduce botting is something I'm personally 100% on board with :)
 

Marcus The Mad

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He said part of it was to help reduce botting so he still used it as an excuse no one said that was clearly the only reason. Its still an excuse mate.
What kind of a distorted reasoning are you sporting?

People seem to be under the impression that preventing bots is as easy as breathing. Unless you want DRM with ring 0 kernel access on your PC (look that up yourself) and similar on your phone, there are going to be other avenues taken to prevent bot from going rampant. Even with DRM that pervasive, it's not a 100% guarantee some really determined cheat will manage a way around it.

The goal appears to be to reduce the methods by which botting is possible and make it as hard as they can on cheats to use bots, attempting to break current methods they use.
 

DJ300

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What kind of a distorted reasoning are you sporting?

People seem to be under the impression that preventing bots is as easy as breathing. Unless you want DRM with ring 0 kernel access on your PC (look that up yourself) and similar on your phone, there are going to be other avenues taken to prevent bot from going rampant. Even with DRM that pervasive, it's not a 100% guarantee some really determined cheat will manage a way around it.

The goal appears to be to reduce the methods by which botting is possible and make it as hard as they can on cheats to use bots, attempting to break current methods they use.

Well personally i play valorant and what you're talking about is Vangaurd? at first i didn't like the idea of it for sure. that is what is needed to stop hackers so yeah bring it i already have accepted it through playing valorant.

and yeah they still will find a way around it just like they will with this change.
 
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Deleted User - 11105474

Guest
One thing is sure that we are very unhappy with this Steam Nerf update. And many are uninstalling TW from Steam including all of us here.
 

Deleted User - 849054388

Guest
I don't think anybody is claiming that this update will stop all botting. And definitely haven't seen anybody claim that Steam caused all botting.

Any update that will help reduce botting is something I'm personally 100% on board with :)
Explain how this stops any botting? Because people can still bot on steam if that is what they were doing.
 

Voodoo.

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Why are you removing the Steam + Desktop log in,? There is no point me coplaying people anymore.

Had a good few weeks, playing my first serious coplay on 125, with us being sametime zone using the Steam client made it possible for us all to play together.
I don't see no point in the steam client Inno might as well delete it from the steam store.
 

Deleted User - 11105474

Guest
We don't want this steam-nerf update. Please take it back!

Make steam great again!

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JawJaw

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Alright, to get some stuff out of the way here, as I see people discussing things using screenshots of parts of conversations instead of the full conversations or are just making assumptions without understanding.

First of all - we understand the frustration regarding this change. It is nothing we didn't expect. It is something we have discussed internally for months exactly because if its popularity, but it had to happen. Whether or not you agree with that is a different story. We totally understand using the browser and steam sessions became a thing since we introduced Steam at the end of 2020.

Somewhat ironically, back then many people reported the ability to use the browser and steam version at the same time a bug or an exploit, and even more people actually reported this as 'cheating'. In the very beginning we did not yet see a huge problem with this possibility and just decided to 'let it be'. Let's let the community use it as they please, somewhat in line with our "tolerance" towards co-playing (despite it being against the rules in the strictest sense). Us allowing this to happen of course grew the portion of players (including all of yourselves), to actively use this on a daily basis. It is actually funny when you think about it - our original good intent to give you what you want bites us in the ass right now.

Soon after however we started noticing an increased amount of users using certain abilities in a botting way. We can't go into details on this without revealing how or what (which bot-creators would be happy to read). This immediately brings us to our first constraint. We need to make changes sometimes that we can't explain. Such information is exactly what bot-creators want from us, and they'll be using this against us, further ruining your game with their bots.

Anyway, we watched for a while and this portion of 'unprovable' bot-users grew more and more, simply because of certain functionalities (again, can't go into details). The problem however was that due to this ability, our fight against botting became harder and harder, even impossible.
On a daily basis, we investigate and track dozens of players for potential botting. A majority of them, we are sure actually are but it became impossible for us to prove it. InnoGames maintains a strict policy that we do not ban people we are not sure about. We do make mistakes, and we try to rectify them, but on the moment of banning, we are always sure. Depending on the appeal, new items may come to light that makes us reconsider. However, on the total amount of bans we place (for botting), the amount of reversing is very low.

Going back to the main story, more and more bots are being used worldwide and this is also something that led to more and more complaints from players against botting. Botting that we couldn't prove.

This change makes the fight easier again. We will be able to prove big portions of botting again. This change ensures that we can take away a big amount of botters from our game again. Will this be all botters? No, definitely not. If you believe in a game where cheating doesn't happen, botting doesn't happen, ... then you need a reality check. We will never achieve 100% 'fair-play'. We can however try working towards 100% with all we got!
We also never said anywhere that this change will remove all the botting that is happening.

It basically comes down to this - we have rules against cheating, and we don't have rules that support co-playing. We have had this discussion in the past. While we are aware co-playing happens, it will never be a factor in our decisions to limit rule-breaking or create game features. This will only become one once we do support co-playing (and if ever). We are open for suggestions regarding this, in our Thinktank forums for example, but as long as there are no supported ways for co-playing, we will not be taking this into consideration for changes to the game, and definitely not if this harms our ability to fight cheats.

To wrap up this big bunch of text - we totally and truly understand you guys. There is not a person at InnoGames or the team that doesn't understand the consequences for you. That is exactly why it took so long to get done. It is however a necessary evil if we want to fight bots. There is no other way of putting this. It is necessary. I already know many of you will start flaming right after I post this message and/or insinuate that you just gotta trust us.... Well... yeah. Sadly you do. We can't give you details, some of you also don't understand the technical parts anyway, so whatever we say here is just going to end up with you doubting it. We accept that. We understand that.

As our senior developer, morthy, pointed out yesterday - considering Tribal Wars on Steam was initially a test project to work on a framework to allow our games to be embedded in Steam and Microsoft store (which has been hugely successful for InnoGames), we never expected or wanted our current players to move over to using Steam. At best, this would bring in a new audience. For this reason, we are willing to risk that you stop using Steam, if that means we can effectively fight a big portion of botters again.

We know. We understand. We accept.


I hope this clarified (somewhat) our reasons. I am sure it will still leave a big portion of you unsatisfied. Probably for some this will just lead to even more negative comments or "doubt"-messages. Again - we accept that but it is not a discussion we are going to continue having. It is your right to not believe us when we say it is for the good of the game, but you also need to understand that InnoGames is a business. It is not in our advantage to remove a useful tool such as Steam "for no reason". At most, we may have made some shitty decisions about changes, game features, but we haven't removed stuff "just because".

This is a typical case where we had good intentions, but the 0.1% ruined it for the 99.9% by abusing the mechanisms. I'm sorry.
 
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