Has the Haul Limit Changed TW's for the Worst?

llanowar

Still Going Strong
This has gone on for a long time. The only issue is that now the relationships and knowledge base are so broad that everyone knows someone from a different world.

This leads to pre-existing relationships being almost required to get into some tribes because if noone vouches for you you're simply not getting in.

This then leads to new players getting crushed constantly and leaving.

New Blood just doesn't appear in this game much anymore and thats sad to see, but I don't see it really getting better because we are an instant gratification culture now so if joining the other side keeps you alive and gets you more gratification that's what you are going to do.

Noone really joins this game to fight to the death anymore....they join it to socialize. The attacking is just a way to give themselves an endorphin boost when they kill off some over-matched n00b.
 

The Simple Mindead

Non-stop Poster
Thanks for the good replies and not turning this into spam or a flame match, I do want to add that I actually think the haul limit is one of the best changes to tw's. Ever. It does bring a better balance but I also think that it lends itself to a more selfish style of play. And the comments about TW's becoming about friendships etc is spot on.

I'd love to see the next haul limited world to also have a tribal lock with no outside support. I'd still like to be able to choose a starting direction but tribes lock after a certain time. I seem to remember them trying random locked tribes once on w40something? and it was a failure apparently.
 

krogenth

Contributing Poster
Thanks for the good replies and not turning this into spam or a flame match, I do want to add that I actually think the haul limit is one of the best changes to tw's. Ever. It does bring a better balance but I also think that it lends itself to a more selfish style of play. And the comments about TW's becoming about friendships etc is spot on.

I'd love to see the next haul limited world to also have a tribal lock with no outside support. I'd still like to be able to choose a starting direction but tribes lock after a certain time. I seem to remember them trying random locked tribes once on w40something? and it was a failure apparently.
The pre-set tribes world was W27, it had started out well and ended pretty poorly.
All in all, the limited hauls world is something different, and doesn't require someone being logged on 24/7 to keep up, just get on at the same time each day and that's it, done. But I think most players have probably figured out a good rhythm to it already. All in all, it just caps how quickly one can grow.
 

Krazdone.

Guest
They need a world with haul limit, random starting direction, no supporting outisde of tribe, packets, simple tech w/o archers. would be great.
 

NZKr4zyK1w1

Guest
So in the hopes of openning up some decent discussion on the forum I'm going to write about my experiance so far on w61 and ask you if you've had simular experiances, how these differ from my experiances on other worlds and whether these are a result of the limited hauls settings, just bad luck or a reflection of society or some thing deep like that.

So lets start with some of the fundimental effects that limiting hauls has on the game. In a normal farming world the best farmers generally race ahead, loosing a nuke or a ville can easily be caught up through just spending a bit more time farming back the losses. Where as with the haul limit our resources come mostly through pits making the value of one village all that more important and the loss of a nuke all the more costly.

Now this world has to me seen a huge increase in people going for easy villes though internals and account mergers. Family Tribes are no longer the execption but the rule. There is strength in numbers and even people who would have mocked family tribes in the past are now adapting the model for themselves. Wars end premeturly or end up in mergers because lets face it, it's a lot harder to get the res now to rebuild those nukes, long wars mean slowing down the growth of the tribe.

Now the start of the world so far has for me at least seen more drama, selfishness, backstabbing and cowardice then I've ever seen on another world. (I've played on at least 14 worlds not counting HP or Speed). People are less willing to put their villages and troops on the line, as it comes with a greater cost, and are more subject to playing dirty to gain an advantage. Now I'm not saying these eliments don't exist on other worlds, they do in great measure, but the scale which I've seen it here is notiably more then on farming worlds, w56 was simular to this one but the settings were still new then so early on most were still playing it like a farm world and didn't adapt to the settings until later.

Just to back up my point I'll give you a brief overview of my journey on w61 so far and then you can tell me, was it a result of the settings, bad luck or some reflection of society rubbish.

So I started Wonka as a small premade in the SE. Early on I noticed a couple of other tribes that seemed to have done a simular thing, create a small select tribe on the rim (Wet? & Fr3aks). Now the hope was always to merge in wet and freaks, the SE needed one dominant tribe not a bunch of little leet ones all doing their own thing. XX was ment to be the fruition of that vision.

Now the first encounter we had was with the tribe Rhino, and if you had any dealing with them you will understand why they ended up getting gang banged. Their attitude of "MERGE or DIE" wasn't exactly rational but oozed ego, irrationality and arrogance. Next we had East, and their attitude was even worse then Rhinos, their idea of diplomacy and bad leadership has already been discussed at length so I won't go back over it. I merged in Fr3aks and Rawr! and formed XX and things were going well.

After dealing with Rhino and East, XX were sitting in a good position, dispite pulling out earlier then I wanted to from the impact war it was a needed decision, our D was low and our relations with Censor at the time were very volitile so I was expecting to get hit from them, and if we had of we probably wouldn't have made it. That pesky haul limit just meant that we didn't have the resources to continue without slowing down the tribe to much or putting it at risk. Then the shit storm happened:-

The original duke of Fr3aks decided to leave and form Insan3, a move that totally undid all the hard work we had done with the East war, the image of XX being a strong power house was changed to one of instability. It was also shown on another thread that he not only quit the tribe he made a deal with its old enemy Impact to make sure they would hit XX trying to secure it's down fall. We then got hit with another moment of selfishness when the members of Rawr decided that they were to impatient to wait until I openned up a new front or to move to our current frontline and that it was easier to join in with the enemy that we had saved them from only weeks before. So we were backstabbed, betrayed, deserted and left for dead. It was sad to see everything that XX had worked so hard for come crashing down through the actions of individuals who put self before the tribe and adopted dirty tactics to get ahead. With that XX no longer had the numbers to hold, let alone be the power in the SE. Drastic action had to be taken so we joined Censor. A family tribe...

Now I'm not looking for a pity party or anything, just giving some insight in how I came to this conclusion through my own experiances on 61 so far.

So have you had simular encounters? Do you think the impact of the haul limit has been more positive or negative on the game? Does it promote selfishness and diminish the sence of loyalty to your tribe over the safety of your own account? Does farming actually make the game better?
It is really different, having a world with such low farming... The thing was when you mentioned your tribe was mostly offense, this is where some of the guys from Stuck! changed focus from... We decided early on that moving the focus from offense to defense was needed, and that slow and steady growth was indeed the best way to play. So instead of working on trying to co-ordinate offense to a high degree, the focus changed to co-ordinating defense from very early on, and making sure that enemies would lose troops by hitting stacks of defense.

Timing defense made all the difference, as it would minimise losses and spread these losses amongst many players. It HAS meant slower growth, and we have been at war for around 1.5 months now, coming up to 2 months soon.

I have to say it over and over again though, our thing was with recruitment to recruit people who would grow as players, not as accounts. And I think this is very important, because when people see each other as simply accounts, there is no loyalty and therefore no self-sacrifice.

I admire you for what you have done in other worlds, a simple look up in your twstats shows you are very experienced, but I have to say, having a tribe with players that have over 50% offensive villages is not a very good start. Nukes hitting walls with stacks, and three paladins with sp/sw/hc weapons makes very efficient wars.
 

Little Lion Man

Guest
I agree that earlier on the non-haul certainly has a massive effect on the number of nukes people are willing to sacrifice, but once you get going, start getting vills with 30/30/30 and don't need to be built up anymore, you can easily make up the resources without having to farm. 4800/hour is more than enough to keep your queues rolling 24/7 and have a bit left over for coins etc. They key with this world is patience more than anything, defense is obviously going to be more popular than offense than in other worlds and so progress is always going to be slow.
 

Ballerond

Guest
People should consider the following before judging these settings: The new thing that admins wanted to add and test was the haul limit. They tried to adjust the other settings based mostly on that and see how the world will progress. There can be many varieties on settings with the haul limit and of course maybe future worlds would prove to be better if they change a few things (tribe limit, speed, distance etc.). However I believe that what the OP mentioned is happening in every world between tribes and players regardless the settings.
If you lose a nuke here and have 10-12 villages at least you can easily rebuild it by transfering resources and focusing on that village. When you have to farm to get the resources, losing a nuke means losing the LC also. So more damage and more time consuming. It's like playing a late-game world when people have 100+ villages, don't care to farm a lot and just mass recruit units to use them on their next strategy.
Now players consume more time thinking about strategies, plans, organising ops rather than farming barbs and then going for a solo war.

I prefer those settings and I will definetely try a new no-haul or limited-haul world with some changes to spice it up :)
 

The Simple Mindead

Non-stop Poster
It is really different, having a world with such low farming... The thing was when you mentioned your tribe was mostly offense, this is where some of the guys from Stuck! changed focus from... We decided early on that moving the focus from offense to defense was needed, and that slow and steady growth was indeed the best way to play. So instead of working on trying to co-ordinate offense to a high degree, the focus changed to co-ordinating defense from very early on, and making sure that enemies would lose troops by hitting stacks of defense.

Timing defense made all the difference, as it would minimise losses and spread these losses amongst many players. It HAS meant slower growth, and we have been at war for around 1.5 months now, coming up to 2 months soon.

I have to say it over and over again though, our thing was with recruitment to recruit people who would grow as players, not as accounts. And I think this is very important, because when people see each other as simply accounts, there is no loyalty and therefore no self-sacrifice.

I admire you for what you have done in other worlds, a simple look up in your twstats shows you are very experienced, but I have to say, having a tribe with players that have over 50% offensive villages is not a very good start. Nukes hitting walls with stacks, and three paladins with sp/sw/hc weapons makes very efficient wars.
You might have miss read something some where, in W0nka and for the beginning of XX we had a D requirement of a minimum of 60%.
 

NZKr4zyK1w1

Guest
You might have miss read something some where, in W0nka and for the beginning of XX we had a D requirement of a minimum of 60%.
Ahh, I see. However I have seen some players really have low defense in their accounts, but we will see what happens when larger scale wars break out. Like someone had said earlier, as accounts get larger, losing a few nukes means you can focus on that village... What I noticed early game especially was some of the noobs were getting quite large accounts, and active vets were smaller cos they were used to focusing on troops, so you had total n00bs lasting a lot longer than what they normally would, and they were harder to spot (until they sent 1+ second trains to you xD) so recruitment was that much more difficult.
 

xBloodxThiirstyx-

Contributing Poster
Ahh, I see. However I have seen some players really have low defense in their accounts, but we will see what happens when larger scale wars break out. Like someone had said earlier, as accounts get larger, losing a few nukes means you can focus on that village... What I noticed early game especially was some of the noobs were getting quite large accounts, and active vets were smaller cos they were used to focusing on troops, so you had total n00bs lasting a lot longer than what they normally would, and they were harder to spot (until they sent 1+ second trains to you xD) so recruitment was that much more difficult.
During start up those "active vets" were small because they did not know how to adapt. A lot of other "active vets" grew quickly because they were able to adapt to the world settings & focus on mine whoring.

Even when people only had 1 village, it was still pretty easy to tell if people were noobs or not. Use TWStats to check check what they're building, most recruitment should involve that anyway. :icon_rolleyes: If that's not enough then their first few conquers will definitely show it..
 

NZKr4zyK1w1

Guest
During start up those "active vets" were small because they did not know how to adapt. A lot of other "active vets" grew quickly because they were able to adapt to the world settings & focus on mine whoring.

Even when people only had 1 village, it was still pretty easy to tell if people were noobs or not. Use TWStats to check check what they're building, most recruitment should involve that anyway. :icon_rolleyes: If that's not enough then their first few conquers will definitely show it..
oh yeah, for sure. But then you have people who looked good when they were around 5 villages, built well and were aggressive, then when it came down to it, just didn't play very well. Noobs can build well, be aggressive and conquer the right villages, but when it comes down to communication, organising ops, and just the basics of sending mass fakes and t trains they fall flat. That is not to say that that makes them noobs, but their lack of willingness to learn can... get in the way.

And I agree with some active vets growing, but many of them chose the 'tribal hugs' way of merging with big tribes and all that, just to keep playing, instead of choosing a tribe, and playing as a team... Case in point, MNWS... there are probably many others like this in this world.
 

Alyxar

Still Going Strong
No haul and haul limit is way better than farming worlds.
i've played both 56 and currently 61.
back on 56. MoM didnt do any backstabbing but instead with good diplomacy we survived countless of gangbang and wars. there was alot of internals and merger but thats the way to keep up on a no haul world. you dont have to noble far apart to farm good. you make good cluster and show true skills in tw. you also need to use abit of your brain to think and make good relations with people around you to survive, help one another. players eventually quit, so if you make alot of friends. when they quit, you get free vils. not that its a shit way to win a no haul world but sadly. its an advantage over other players that fight for their vils. I personally hate mergers/internals but having no choice to match up to them, everyone has to take some.

Paul, crying about backstabbing and lying and stuff.. you backstabbed me when you gave me your words. i know the demands i made was too much and i was foolish enough to believe a old friend from 56 like you which led to east downfall. but if you held on to your end of the deal. things wouldnt have turned out this way. XX wasnt a strong powerhouse. Basically it was eating of inactives in East and merging of Insan3 and Rawr to form XX.

For sure take a look at top 20, most have internals and mergers. They find their ways thru them. to gain a good lead/advantage over the rest, making it harder to catch up than on a haul world. In my opinion, a no haul world doesn't take much time but takes way more brains to make things work out. Anyway. goodluck
 
No/limited haul worlds are now the only worlds I personally will be playing, I love how it's a lot more relaxed and easier to play in terms of time spent online, however I do agree that strategy plays a much larger part (which is awesome!) newer players are getting chance to grow before they are dominated, giving them some slight idea of the game and hopefully leaving them thirsty for more. I know back in my first world (W9) I grew to 3 villages before some 1M point player just walked all over me, I grew enough to leave me hungry to learn more and be that 1M point player (although I found out going for 3 village players is no fun :p) but yes my point is I love no hauls and I believe it's the way forward for tribalwars, a haul world should be more rare than no haul imo
 

NZKr4zyK1w1

Guest
Actually, that IS an interesting point you made dawn. I remember back in world 7 when I first started and I was getting farmed hard, but I didn't realise that is what it was, and I couldn't defend cos I would be hit in the night and it was just horrible and I was learning nothing and being really frustrated. THEN a guy called katito came in and supported me, then attacked the guy who was farming me.

Then he taught me how to play the game, and I can probably say the only reason I am playing TW is cos of him. If he hadn't of done that, I would have walked away and never played again.
 

Rednecks

Guest
Good thread, the original post was a little confusing but the topic is definitely worth discussing.

This is my first crack at a limited/no hauls world and I have to say it definitely changes the way it gets played. First of all a world like this can be played solo, just as long as you have a friend who can sit if you come under attack. On other worlds you would see people getting coplayers to do nothing but farm. This world seems to encourage strength in numbers even more so than other worlds. For example we won w53 with 27 players, I did not have to do a lot of recruiting even when people had to quit. But on w53 we had cheap coins, unlimited hauls, no morale (after 90 days I think), and speed 2. Here I see that as not being realistic, you need more players in your tribe and families in order to have enough coins & nukes to fight another tribe.

One last observation I have noticed, and I mean this as to no offense to anyone playing, but this world seemed to have brought out a lot of the less experienced players. Which is a good thing as this is a perfect world for someone that is new to learn the game without having everyone outgrow you just because they farm more.

I think there should be more of these kinds of worlds, not all the time, but once in a while to help newer players gain experiences.
 

Almurph

Guest
[spoil]
No haul and haul limit is way better than farming worlds.
i've played both 56 and currently 61.
back on 56. MoM didnt do any backstabbing but instead with good diplomacy we survived countless of gangbang and wars. there was alot of internals and merger but thats the way to keep up on a no haul world. you dont have to noble far apart to farm good. you make good cluster and show true skills in tw. you also need to use abit of your brain to think and make good relations with people around you to survive, help one another. players eventually quit, so if you make alot of friends. when they quit, you get free vils. not that its a shit way to win a no haul world but sadly. its an advantage over other players that fight for their vils. I personally hate mergers/internals but having no choice to match up to them, everyone has to take some.

Paul, crying about backstabbing and lying and stuff.. you backstabbed me when you gave me your words. i know the demands i made was too much and i was foolish enough to believe a old friend from 56 like you which led to east downfall. but if you held on to your end of the deal. things wouldnt have turned out this way. XX wasnt a strong powerhouse. Basically it was eating of inactives in East and merging of Insan3 and Rawr to form XX.

For sure take a look at top 20, most have internals and mergers. They find their ways thru them. to gain a good lead/advantage over the rest, making it harder to catch up than on a haul world. In my opinion, a no haul world doesn't take much time but takes way more brains to make things work out. Anyway. goodluck
[/spoil]

Nice post :) :icon_wink:

Maybe when you quit I could have a village or two? Thanks buddy. Talk soon. :icon_biggrin:
 

stec1611

Still Going Strong
The idea of logging on at dick O Clock to farm doesnt appeal to me so limited haul is great.
 

belbs

Non-stop Poster
No, it gave people time for other thing aside from TW, which sometimes makes some players quit the game because they don't have time to play anymore. And a advantage for TWt coz AM and Farm Assistant are useful for those lazy people :p
 

hughfj08

Guest
Personally I find the No/Limited haul settings are a boon.

Normally I play a world right up until either exams/xmas comes around.
But on w56 the lack of hauls at all allows that extra time so you can hang around without jeopardizing the account to much.
I find that early game is almost unbearable, cause of how slow it is, but at the same time I hated farming worlds in early as well, mass farming is just so dull :icon_cry:

However once more players stack up their village count things will speed up.
Right about when we have enough nukes to spam without having to worry to much about excessive rebuild times :)
 

Pootytangx

Active Member
I enjoy No Haul/Limited Haul worlds myself. When you find yourself in a good solid tribe like Hugh and I were in on W56 it gets really fun! OHYEAH was a tight knit group for the most part. Handfuls of months down the road we had core members that had to leave for various reasons which started us down the path of decay.


As for the OPs complaints of these types of worlds. Look at how you took XX and made it a powerhouse in the first place. You took from here and you took from there. All you did was gather the strongest people in the area for a time until real opposition presented itself. Look what you guys did to Invade. Not only did XX declare but also Censor and =D-N= declared as well. Once the leadership of Invade jumped ship the rest of the tribe crumbled. Then the bigger placers were scooped up by the powerful tribes and the smaller ones became food. Its a well known process by now....

I remember at how tight knit OHYEAH was in w56. We took on tribes twice our size and caused them to disband. If you can find that loyalty in a tribe I suggest you stick with it till rimmed! Its a rare thing to find these days