Hybrid - My new wife

Discussion in 'General' started by Unholy Confessions, May 17, 2019.

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  1. Unholy Confessions

    Unholy Confessions New Member

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    Hello everyone. Two years ago, I wrote this. I'm about to write a translation for you today.

    Hybrid - My new wife!
    The past 10 worlds I've tested out something that every experienced player gets goosebumps just thinking about. Normally they shout out something like "Wtf? You're lowering the power of your nuke, dude..." | "You're not touching stacks whatsoever" | "Lol! You can't seriously mean that you're mixing offensive and defensive troops in the same village? Are you dumb?!"

    I'll admit that playing hybrid is different. It challenges the player in ways you normally isn't challenged. One day you're going to be experienced enough to know how to build the strongest nuke, the quickest nuke and/or the quickest and strongest nuke as possible. Hybrid challenges this, and goes far beyond this way of thinking! It's all about how to use every troop on your account most effectively.

    Everyone knows why we got nukes. Many may have heard the saying "Nukes are made to be used".
    Many nukes that is used often is good because it usually results in an account in massive growth. The offensive villages is usually the ones you're farming from, and with more offensive villages the more farming can be done. Defensive villages usually just stand there to be beautiful to look at, not participating in the farming act. If you're playing 100% offensively or the defensive villages participates farming, you're disposing yourself for unwanted risk. Is it really worth the risk..? The tactic I'm going to present to you here, makes you play with twice as many(!!!) offensive villages than defensive villages, without the cost of your defenses. But ... how is that possible?

    Personally I like to play with twice as many hybrid villages than defensive villages, that gives me a 60/40 offensive/defensive account. You're able to play with 100% hybrid villages in theory, but I see that as a poor choice because your nuke more or less only contains LCs.

    This may become quite advanced and technical quickly for some of you, but I'll try to make this as easy as possible.

    Let's say you're doing as follows:
    You're redoing 8 offensive and 4 defensive villages to 12 hybrid villages. Now you're building defensive troops in 12 barracks instead of 4, which makes your defensive efficiency THREE TIMES better.

    Proof:
    4 barracks x 10 000 spears = 40 000 spears
    12 barracks x 10 000 spears = 120 000 spears
    120 000 / 40 000 = 3 efficiency

    You're also getting 1,5 times more LC production, which I hope you know is the best unit to farm with. Additionally you're getting 1,5 times more rams as well!

    Proof:
    8 offensive villages x 2000 LC = 16 000 LC
    12 hybrid villages x 2000 LC = 24 000 LC
    24 000 LC / 16 000 LC = 1,5 efficiency

    The previous equation also works with rams.

    The whole point of this is that you're going to have just the same amount of troops in your hybrid villages as in your pure villages. 1/3 defensive and 2/3 offensive, for example.

    In the reality you're ending up with
    More LC, less axes, less HC, more infantry defense, more nukes, and more rams pr. unit.


    But why am I giving up my axes in advantage for spears, swords and archers, you're asking?

    For those of us who's been playing TribalWars for a while, we know that the strongest kind of defense comes from the barracks based on farmspace vs Heavy Cavalry. The more HC you've got in your defenses, the weaker it gets. By focusing on infantry in your hybrid villages, you're going to have a pretty strong and efficient defense, given that it makes it in time. Usually they to, as cluster builders (like me) likes to have villages as close to yourself as possible (specially W107, where church is activated).
    I'd like to advise you to NOT massnoble barbarians because it limits how much you're able to loot, and you're not able to dodge incoming attacks on these villages if you're under attack. Ofcourse, if it's a tactical placed grey, you're more than welcome to noble it, but try to keep it to a minimum.
    By recruiting Light Cavalry, you're getting almost 1,79 times more offensive strength per second, than by recruiting axes.

    Axes attack pr. second:
    40 attack power / 208 seconds (3 minutes and 38 seconds) = 0,19 attack pr. second

    LC attack pr. second:
    130 attack power / 376 seconds (6 minutes and 18 seconds) = 0,34 attack pr. second

    0,34 / 0,19 = 1,789

    This is why it's easier to give away some axes instead of LCs in advantage for infantry.

    The hybrid strategy says nothing against pure defensive villages, ONLY pure offensive villages! You're hurting your defenses severely if some of your villages is pure offensive.
    The goal with this strategy is to end up with no (zero) "offensive" villages, but as many hybrid villages as you'd like!

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let's say you'd like to be 50/50 offensive/defensive. You may not get more than 6000 defensive units into your farm space per hybrid village.
    For simplicity's sake, we'll say that 6000 is 1/3 of your farm space. To get this to work, we're going to have to take two offensive villages and one defensive village for each third hybrid village you're going to have.
    Instead of 20 offensive and 20 defensive villages, we're making 30 hybrid villages and 10 defensive villages.

    Let's use the example above:
    I'm going to take the liberty to say you've had 230 rams in your offensive villages.
    230 rams x 20 offensive villages = 4600 rams.

    We're doing the same equation as above with the hybrid strategy, with the same amount of hybrid villages and defensive villages.
    We don't want 230 rams, mostly because it costs space in our farm. We're using 219 rams instead, which is the exact number you need to take down a empty villages' wall from lvl 20 -> lvl 0.

    219 rams x 30 hybrids = 6570 rams.

    We still have as much defensive and offensive troops as we had when we had pure villages, but we have extremely much more rams! These rams can be used to CRUSH your enemies walls.
    It is important to say that rams is never useless in an attack, even though the wall isn't touched after the attack. Let's say you're attacking a stacked village with a nuke consisting with 213 rams (which is the hardcap for rams), but isn't budging the wall at all. You're still doing more damage to your opponent with rams in your nuke, instead of dropping making rams at all and make axes and LCs with the farm space these rams took.
    With "hardcap" I actually mean that every ram you make above 213 isn't strengthening your attack power anymore. The only thing these extra rams do is lowering the wall an extra level or two "after" the actual attack.

    A recap of some good reasons for going hybrid:
    * More nukes - Gives you more firepower in the long run
    * More Light Cavalry - Gives the opportunity to farm and loot more
    * More rams - Allows you to crush more walls
    * More barrack defence - Makes your defence stronger
    * Defense in every village - Makes it possible to snipe from anywhere, any time
    * Defense in every village - Easier to send small packs of defense to villages that need stack
    * Defense in every village - Lowers rebuild time up to 3 times the efficiency, because you're spreading rebuilding towards every barracks

    [​IMG]
    (Farm space used for buildings: 3336)

    With this build you're saving 100 farm space to build a nobleman. You can of course recruit 100 more spears, swords or archers, or a variety of these if you'd like. It is usually this one I'm using, but with 100 more spears. This is pretty flexible and a decent defense. It's also pretty good for scavenging! I've calculated the catapults so can send up to 10 fakes with 1% fake limit, and still have some left for your actual attack. The nuke itself only loses 1,1 times more than a pure nuke, but you're compensating that with the amount of hybrid nukes at your disposal. With this variant I'm usually running twice as many hybrids than defensive villages.
     
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  2. Bobertini

    Bobertini In-Game Staff Tribal Wars Team Team

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    Interesting.....
     
  3. Mintyfresh

    Mintyfresh Skilled Soldier 2018

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    Dude let me just start by saying how awesome i think it is that you're being creative. My main complaint about most people in TW is that they're too static and not dynamic enough which makes them easy to exploit and beat so major props for thinking outside of the box.

    However unfortunately most of what you've done here is inherently flawed and shows some misconceptions about the game and the best way to play it. I can also tell that this is badly outdated because its completely out of touch with the biggest update that changed the way most people are playing. Im talking obviously about Scavenging.

    Let me start by saying that i do agree that these days there is a time and place for hybrid villages. your first village(s) should be hybrid, to exploit the fact that spears/swords combo hauls more in scavenging than axes do. Usually i go something like 1-2k sp/sw and LC to maximize revenue. The next few villages i generally go at least 500/500 sp/sw to scavenge with. So its ironic but your post is actually outdated as its generally the standard meta recently to have a hybrid startup

    I'd like to break it down piece by piece your article, hope you dont mind.

    First part is correct. You nuke then you farm while the nuke is rebuilding. However defensive villages should never just stand around and look pretty. They should either be

    a) out supporting someone
    b) rebuilding
    c) scavenging

    The big change in the last 2 years was the introduction to scavenging. There is literally no reason why your troops should ever sit idle at home. Send your troops out and even on a 1 speed world you can easily do an extra 1-2 coins per day with very little effort if you have the proper scripts to make scavenging easier. If your defensive villages are just sitting there idle with all their troops at home then quite frankly you're doing it wrong.


    Thats not how maths works im afraid because you're not building 10000 spears in any build so kinda false logic. You can build the spear amount of your nukes in a day. So any time after that the efficiency of recruiting those spears is redundant. Also 8 off / 4 def is a 66% ratio. Not a 60% ratio (which is what you said you end up with for an account) So you should instead be doing 6 off / 4 def conversion which reduces your 'efficiency' for spear production.

    Why are you building 2k LC in a nuke? 3k is the more common number so you dont gain any LC by this conversion if you're using a proper nuke build. Completely false numbers. Unless your goal is to send out a hybrid nuke as soon as it hits the 2k mark?

    LC - Wrong
    Axes - I build 6300 axes per nuke - 50,400 in 8 off vils compared to 50,148 in your 12 hybrids. So barely? Although i dont see this as relevant
    Less HC - True. You give up all defensive speed mobility by having a hybrid village
    More infantry defense - very wrong. Your 12 converted hybrids have 9600/7560/7560 defensive units. Giving values of:

    900,000 General defense
    847,800 Cav defense
    532,200 Archer defence

    The infantry alone (not including the HC) in my 4 DV (22,000 sp, 22,000 archer) have values of:

    1,430,000 General defence
    1,870,000 Cav defence
    550,000 Archer defence

    Your hybrid defensive strength is significantly less than half of mine if you factor in the HC.

    More nukes - I wouldnt call them nukes, you dont call them nukes. You call them hybrids. You have 12 hybrids under your system not 12 nukes. You dont have more nukes

    More rams - Correct. Although 219 rams in 12 villages is worse than 300 rams in 8 villages as i will elaborate on later.

    You build HC for the speed/utility it gives you, not because its the strongest unit for farm space. You cant break everything down into numbers in this game. Yes there is a break point where extra HC is burden but thats rather high (2k+)

    I'd agree with that. Although do note that you can use the scavenge feature to dodge or you can just move troops into one of your own villages.

    Yeah i'd agree with that. The LC are the primary damage dealers in a nuke (thats why my def builds have higher cav def than general def to counter it)

    The key word here is 'Empty'. If a village is empty then it doesnt matter what your nuke make up is. This is such a strawman argument. It doesnt matter whether you can knock an empty village wall from 20-1 or 20-0. Because its empty? The reason why you build more than 219 rams is because generally you dont nuke empty villages

    Thats wrong. Rams do two things when attacking; they negate some of the bonus a wall provides for the fight (important for stacks), and then downgrade it. The first part happens before the fight actually takes place and the second part takes effect after the fight takes place. More rams = more negation of wall bonus for fight. Very important for grinding down stacks.

    Finally your nukes are just not as powerful. Those guys shouting at you that you're lowering the power of your nuke etc are pretty much spot on. Here is your nuke vs 3 of my DV

    [​IMG]

    My nuke vs 3 of my DV:

    [​IMG]

    The critical part is that in mine the wall gets knocked down and takes 2 less nukes to clear. Lower wall = lower wall bonus = more troops killed each time a nuke lands and thats why it clears faster. The difference in nukes only increases as the stack gets higher. It takes 14 of your hybrid nukes to clear 4 of my DV, compared to 10 of my nukes to clear 4 DV. Thats a 4 nuke difference. Im sure i dont have to explain why its important to clear in 10 nukes rather than 14.

    Secondly with fewer attacking units in your nuke you lose out on a lot of the attacking bonuses. 15% extra damage on 4k axes is a lot less power than 6k.

    I could go on a lot more but i think this post has been long enough now lol

    So to summarize. Your nukes have less power. Your defensive utility/speed is reduced. You have less defensive strength. All in all its a pretty bad idea.

    But i think its fantastic that you put the work in to create it and if you enjoyed success with this system then i think thats amazing and full credit to you. If you ever want to discuss game mechanics with me i'd be more than happy to :)
     
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  4. Unholy Confessions

    Unholy Confessions New Member

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    Thanks.

    I'd be more than happy to, but that's for a later conversation. Right now I've had a little bit too much to drink and need my sweet sleep to be able to at least wake up tomorrow for work.
    Cheers for now, looking forwards for an interesting discussion!
     
  5. Unholy Confessions

    Unholy Confessions New Member

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    Again, thank you.
    This isn't meant to be a blueprint of how to play hybrid, and shouldn't be looked at that way either. There's plenty of other combinations you could use too. This was originally written before scavenging were implemented, but I still can't see why the scavenging negatively impacts this way of playing, as you're mentioning right down below.

    ----------------------

    Totally agree! There shouldn't be any reason for defensive villages to just standing around looking pretty. But you're mentioning they should scavenge? Why? Aren't that just as "bad" as running a 100% offensive account? While your defensive troops are scavenging, you're letting yourself and your tribesmates into risk, by binding your defenses for hours.


    I did mention to try to make things easier, didn't I?
    10000 spears isn't ideal in a defensive village, I agree. I took that number just to make things look easy. It all comes down to what you prefer in DV. There simply isn't any "this is the best defensive village, use this!" kind of thing. There's always counters, both in offense and defense.
    Yeah, you can rebuild 10k spears in a day divided across your 4 DV's. But (without taking the math here) you can rebuild these in a couple of hours when all of your barracks builds spears.

    You're still relying on simple maths here. We're not playing with pure villages, remember?
    Say you have 20600 farmspace left for troops, and some of them is held off for defensive troops. That loss of troops is also in account here. By using the image I left at the bottom of my post, you're ending up with approximately (again, didn't take the maths because I'm lazy. Just thinking I remember correctly when I first did the maths) 61,7% offensive and 38,3% defensive troops.

    Haha, I'll take that one. That's just lazy again. I should've used 3k instead, I agree.



    LC - No, you're ending up with more LCs. Again, you're not converting any of your current LCs. You're converting a whole defensive village instead into LCs, to make more LC...
    Axes - Well, that's not that bad. I would've guessed I lost more axes, actually...
    Less HC - Yeah, very much true. You're not giving up all defensive mobility, just some of it. You still have pure defensive villages at the side of this, you know. These pure defensive villages can have HC, if you want.
    More infantry defense - Again, still not wrong. You still have pure defensive villages at the side of this. What you're doing is faster rebuilding speeds, with higher defensive power.

    I don't call them nukes, no. I call them Hybrid nukes. The archers can also participate in attacking defenders who clearly favors archers defenses. You who run spears and archers defense is the perfect one to attack with archers.

    Still going simple, I see. Yes, 219 is worse than 300. I want to say that 219 isn't what I'm saying you must have. You could have 219 rams.
    Even though you seemingly lose more in one rapport, you're not actually losing significantly more after all. You still have more attacking villages when you're going hybrid, which makes up for your losses.

    This is very correct. You build HC for speed, not for power. I agree that HCs are very useful in an active front when you need defensive power quickly.



    Well, I have to be honest here and say that I've actually never thought of dodging with scavenge, haha. Thanks for that, I'll be sure to remember.
    Yes, you can still move troops into your own villages, but I hate that. Especially when you're under massive attacks. I hate remembering to pull back the support and stuff, so it's easier to dodge on greys that have a set amount of time to it.



    There's always counters for attackers as well, even if you're running with hybrids.


    You don't want to nuke empty villages, that's for sure. I personally like this, mostly because if you hit a empty village, you knock the wall down to 0 instead of 4. You can still build more than 219 rams, it all comes down to personal preferences.

    So what you're saying is that the negation works even above 213 rams? It's just your attack power that isn't strengthening above 213? In that case, I'm sorry, I've misunderstood rams all along.

    If your goal is to faster clear stacks, then hybrid simply isn't for you. And I respect that. This isn't a way everyone is comfortable with playing.
    But even though you think you're losing more troops on offense, that's just marginally true.

    That's true. You're losing out a bit on the attacking bonuses.

    If you look at one nuke, that have less power. If you look at the whole account, no - not really.
    Your defensive utility/speed isn't reduced by very much, you can still have HCs in your defensive villages.
    You don't have less defensive strength, you just looked at this as a pure villages point of view.
    I also said it's theoretically possible to play with only hybrid villages, but I too saw that as a pretty bad idea.

    Once again, thank you. I've had success with this on several worlds already (on the norwegian servers though). But you who I guess have a lot of experience, sit down and break this whole thing down into numbers again and see what it actually can do. Try it out, even. You're going to fall in love with my new wife.
     
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  6. Shinko to Kuma

    Shinko to Kuma Non-stop Poster

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    As minty pointed out, your start village should always be hybrid in this meta with scavenging(108 is an exception to the norm)

    The only hybrid villages I like using aren’t much of a hybrid rather nukes with HC in them. They are incredibly useful on a frontline, since they can be used both offensively, and for sniping purposes while not making the build overly expensive

    one of my fav builds is
    5600 axe
    100 scout
    2400 LC
    300HC
    300 ram
    200 cats

    the best thing about this build is that it finishes at exactly the same time in barracks and stables. Taking w104 as an example, it takes 155.5 hours unbuffed unflagged to make all the axes at rax lvl 25

    It takes the stable 155 hours to make the scouts, LC and HC at lvl 20

    I leave workshop at lvl 10 since it doesn’t need to recruit faster than that. Even a ram and cat heavy clear like this is finished building in 108.5 hours
     
  7. Ragestyles

    Ragestyles Non-stop Poster

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    nononono u miss out on valuable points though :O
    Points do matter!!!

    11.130 points villages BEST build [​IMG]
     
  8. Shinko to Kuma

    Shinko to Kuma Non-stop Poster

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    I’d rather have a more efficient clear than useless numbers lol
     
  9. Mintyfresh

    Mintyfresh Skilled Soldier 2018

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    im 99% certain she's joking

    Also personal preference but im a strong advocate for max workshop in all villages. In an active war with an active frontline your cats should be going out and returning 24/7 causing as much havoc and damage as you can. You want to be mass recruiting cats daily to replace the losses you take from fakes/fangs and anything less than a max workshop wont be able to replenish the cat levels sufficiently. As a general rule passively sitting on nukes waiting for them to rebuild is just asking to get rolled by someone who knows how to take advantage of that passivity.
     
  10. NathanPotter

    NathanPotter Contributing Poster

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    I just can’t get over the fact this guy gets to the stage where he has multiple vills and still wants def in them to include with his nuke :D