Closed Discussion Improving Quest & Tutorialsystem

[JawJaw]

Hey everyone,

In 2020 the Tribal Wars team wants to update the tutorial quests. We think that there is a lot of room for improvement which can help make these quests a better entry point for new players, while also making the quest tree easier to manage (and add to) on our side.

Here are the primary shortcomings we hope to address in our changes:

1. The quests reward players for specific actions, and if players don’t follow them exactly, they can get “stuck” for hours while they wait for more resources

2. The quests don’t adequately explain why the player should be doing what they are doing, so players learn to click through various menus, but aren’t necessarily instructed to properly choose a strategy and survive on a world.

3. Because the quests give out a lot of resources for specific builds, players sometimes feel “forced” into a build order they necessarily wouldn’t want to use otherwise. It makes it so that their early strategy must consider the quest rewards, because not receiving them is disadvantageous.

What will the new system look like?

1. Players will receive resource rewards for any successful build action, up until a threshold.
The goal here is that new players are rewarded for interacting with the build system, but returning players can customize their build orders without being penalized for not following the early quests

2. Quest lines will be untangled and have fewer dependencies on other quests, allowing players to focus on specific concepts one at a time and with more focus

3. Quests will no longer always reward resources or units. Some quests may not have a reward. Others may still offer resources, units, or items, but likely for specific milestones like getting halfway through the quest line or for completing it

4. The overall intent is that players can always perform build actions without needing to wait for long periods of time for “wrong” decisions in the opening hours of the game, while also making quest lines simpler so that they teach specific concepts to new players more effectively.

Questions for you:

1. In what ways do you agree or disagree with our changes? What do you see as positives and negatives?
2. Why shouldn’t we change the quests at all and instead keep the current system as is?
3. What are our current quests’ biggest weaknesses? Strengths?
4. How would you adjust our plans for the new quest system?
5. How could our quests better introduce players to concepts that will help them be successful in Tribal Wars?
6. Should we slant the quests towards a more defensive play style so that new players have a better chance at surviving?
7. If players are rewarded for constructing buildings, do you think most will focus on boosting the same buildings every time? Which buildings?
8. Do you see openings for abuse with this new system?
9. What type of knowledge and skills cannot be taught via quests?
10. Should the new quests include more advanced tactics like back timing, sniping, and noble trains?


Please let us know your thoughts!

It might be interesting to review this page to see the current quest system:

https://forum.tribalwars.net/index.php?threads/tribal-wars-quest-flow.283766/

Your Tribal Wars Team

 

[General Iroh]

What about making seperate quest tree's depending on the player's preferences? For example at the start, explain there is offense and defense and let them choose a primary focus? Also, adding an 'incoming simulation' in the questline and explain how to deal with 'incs' could be something that makes new players value troops? Or even know that dodging is a thing?

 

[IAmAbel]

Main problem with quests today is that they force newer players to start in a very ineffective way. So from the start the player, listening to quests, will be way behind an experienced player going their own way and taking the quest he/she knows will give a good return of investment.

so the quest system should first of all follow an build that is ACTUALLY good for once so the player learns. And as you say it should also explain further as of why this build is done.
There is never one single startup that is the best every time so the player need to learn to check the surroundings and adapt. Quests should then focus on rewarding the player if he/she chooses to go one path. Right now the game kind of want you to go everything, building spears, swords, lc and mines and building some buildings way to early and some way to late. It’s like a toddler just smashed random bottoms

 

[Detoxicate]

Well, the biggest problem here is advanced tactics and complete lack of understanding them.

By giving player information in the classical tutorial built, he will forget it when it is needed. We can look at heavy loaded games and how they deal with it.
I for instance would send them an automated message when they do need advanced assistance outside of tutorial log. (as in many complex game, information regarding a system is received when you actually need to practice it. In mobile games they tell you to enchant stuff and how it works, when you start enchanting and so on)
What is the bane of a new player in the beginning? They do not dodge, ever! You can teach them how to snipe, but without providing context it is of no use.

What if you, on their first ever incoming actual attack, could send an automated mail, that explain to them what can be done in this situation, what are their options and why they are effective? This will have a better information retention for them, and you could do it for as many specific game play moments as you need.
Or what if a system could remember for a newbie that its a second attack from the player, and on the second attempt suggest him to go in simulator and see if he can take him out? Suggest investing all resources into smth so he doesn't lose it?
Surely i do not have statistics to see when exactly new player fails and so on, but i think this idea as a ground might help you solve some of it.

This, i think, is way much more simpler and diverse solution that can fit into any situation.
As for simple quest and tutorial systems i have no comments.

 

[IAmAbel]

There are also balances that needs to be done in the game. Lower HC limit to stable 7 and smithy 12, give the HC boosters just like the sword/spear. Make the HC carry more resources so that it can be used for scavenging. For newbs HC is the only way of keeping up with production speed of offensive units. It’s simply impossible to survive near an offensive player in the start, if the deff player do not adapt to bob strategy and go for fast 2-3rd village and produce deff with several villages asap.

Quests need to explain further about how to survive long term. Right now the quests simply do not give a heck about you after your 2nd village.
there need to be educational steps in the quests. What is snipe, what is stack? What is even retake? In what situation should you do what? What is the proper preparations needed when you are under attack? And as an attacker, what is the proper preparations there?

how do you make a good build order? Fix those damn AM templates. Those will get everyone killed. Fix 4-5 proper ones that can actually be used and tell the player to build things in proper order. Educate them how a good deff village look and a good off village. When do you change your troops and in what situations? These are stuff even “the best players” seem to struggle with and it all comes down to lack of education from TW

 

[General Iroh]

it all comes down to lack of education from TW

I mean, the numbers and stats are there, tw is very clear about what is possible and what is not. So it's up to the players / theorycrafters to find the 'most efficient' setups. There's a lot of freedom in this game, give the players some room for testing and creativity

 

[IAmAbel]

I mean, the numbers and stats are there, tw is very clear about what is possible and what is not. So it's up to the players / theorycrafters to find the 'most efficient' setups. There's a lot of freedom in this game, give the players some room for testing and creativity

I disagree even though I understand your point.For me that is like saying you don’t need a trainer in football since you have the rules there for everyone to read. As long as you just know you should put the ball in the goal then you are fine.
Sure players are able to craft their own tactics etc and I don’t say anything about that but there are still some skills that are so basic knowledge today that you cannot easily find. Sniping is a nobrainer, that is a quest that should exist, that’s just lack of education from the game. Basic build orders is the same, basic knowledge that should be provided from the game. Usual builds in deff/off villages etc

 

[General Iroh]

Okay true, some easy accessible links / guides / even a quest like you mentioned explaining the more 'advanced' terms would be a great help to new players who don't know how to survive other than letting an attack hit

 

[JawJaw]

What kind of strategies or 'advanced terms' do you think the questline should explain or teach (better)?

 

[One Last Shot...]

Overall, I like this idea.

I would much prefer it to be a choice upon startup, however.

Option 1 - New Player Quests (more structured similar to current setup, but improved resources/perks)
Option 2 - Experienced Quests (no structure, resources/perks in line with new player quests)

This would give more freedom to players who wish to approach the game in a different way from the get go, but without necessarily handicapping either type of player.

Hopefully my responses to the questions asked will give a more detailed explanation of my thoughts?

1. In what ways do you agree or disagree with our changes? What do you see as positives and negatives?
2. Why shouldn’t we change the quests at all and instead keep the current system as is?
3. What are our current quests’ biggest weaknesses? Strengths?
4. How would you adjust our plans for the new quest system?
5. How could our quests better introduce players to concepts that will help them be successful in Tribal Wars?
6. Should we slant the quests towards a more defensive play style so that new players have a better chance at surviving?
7. If players are rewarded for constructing buildings, do you think most will focus on boosting the same buildings every time? Which buildings?
8. Do you see openings for abuse with this new system?
9. What type of knowledge and skills cannot be taught via quests?
10. Should the new quests include more advanced tactics like back timing, sniping, and noble trains?

Spoiler: Question answers

1. I like the concept, it will allow all players to have more freedom without suffering if they avoid a certain quest for a specific strategy.
The only negative would be that it could prevent new players from understanding the basic game strategy as it wouldn't sign-post the early start approach.

2. I'd prefer a compromise in the middle. Possibly alter the resources given on the current model or extend it. And then set it as an alternative quest.
This in my head would be as follows:
- Upon joining, accounts can choose between 'new player quests' or 'experienced player quests' (with better names). The same total resource / perks reward, but with the freedom for experienced players and more clear guidance for new players.

3. It eases off a bit too much too soon, in my eyes. I've always felt that the ones involving building a certain amount of troops doesn't give you a satisfactory reward, which for new players won't encourage building troops early. That's where I'd like to see changes most of all - encouraging more troop building throughout.

4. As suggested above. Two quest systems that can be chosen once at start. New / Experienced. Both with the same rewards, but with the New one being more structured and in line with the current setup, the Experienced one being far freer.

5. Some quests more focused on troops. Some linking to the external forums to encourage using it more.

6. I've not really got much of an opinion on this. Extending beginner protection may be a better option for this.

7. Some players will focus more on boosting warehouse to benefit more from inventory boosts items. I don't think this should be encouraged!

8. The biggest opening to abuse the use of the quests would all link to various inventory item buffs. These perhaps should be reconsidered in terms of access early on with some items potentially needing to be removed entirely. The 'warehouse fillers' I think are going to become even more detrimental to the game than they already are, for example, if the quests allow building the warehouse to become abused.

9. Quests don't teach defensive skills (dodging, sniping). Dodging could potentially be taught via quests but the incoming attack may cause some players to quit, which would defeat the purpose. The primary purpose would be 'night-time dodging' certain troop types to avoid players losing all troops at home when they wake up. But then again, this could then become abused by more experienced players. Would need a lot of careful consideration.

10. The new quests should definitely introduce some regularly used terms and have explanations on why players use them and how they work.
- Dodging
- Sniping (with possible reference to different ways of doing this, eg cancel sniping & support sniping)
- Faking
- Backtiming
Not sure how they could be 'taught', but it could be as simple as an ingame 'multiple choice quiz' so they at least have to read some basic information and select an answer that gives a basic bit of information about it.

 

[Bjorn Ironside]

I like the idea of educating new players and giving them a good base of knowledge, but as much letters you put in the "quest or tips" (whatever), i'd say a small number of new players would sit and read/follow them. Maybe the proper way would be following them with a pic/video?

There's plenty of lazy players, maybe the best thing would be once someone create an account there's an optional question which it force players to select if they are new/familiar to the game. So anyone who used to play TW wont be following all the steps that a beginner would have.

Mentoring system: It would be good for the mentor to gain something aswell for his work with his "student", for example resources/premium stuffs/inventory items. That would encourage "old players" to do the mentoring thing and so both parts would gain something in return.

 

[General Iroh]

What kind of strategies or 'advanced terms' do you think the questline should explain or teach (better)?

I feel like new players know how the game works and how to get resources / advance their village. But maybe simple mechanics like dodging attacks so you don't lose your troops / resources.

I was going to mention sniping but it's very hard to like.. put that in a quest or a simple line of text. But as googly said, explaining what the terms mean and how they work could be good. It can also be a link to a guide if a player wants to learn more about defending a village or something. Just thinking out loud right now.
The thing is, when you have a new player next to you, they are building fine most of the time and playing the game but 'defending' is a neccessairy skill I don't recall seeing in quests.

I also think upgrading the mentor system and have more 'experienced' players teach things like that to their trainee's could be an option? I think a lot of players that have been around for a while wouldn't mind doing that. But this is also really hard to do..
But the new vs experienced or offensive vs defensive quests is something I think would be good

 

[Detoxicate]

I like the idea of educating new players and giving them a good base of knowledge, but as much letters you put in the "quest or tips" (whatever), i'd say a small number of new players would sit and read/follow them. Maybe the proper way would be following them with a pic/video?

Main point is, that information should be provided when needed, to have a good retention. And sure, video and visuals would indeed work better

 

[AuroraMoon]

if memory serves there used to be a quest where you had to dodge an incoming from a barb village
but think its been removed and replaced with just "support a random village"

more in-depth strategy like sniping/cancel snipes could be taught after a player gains their second village via a fake train from a nearby barb
could also include backtiming in the the same quest, since the first fake attack would live (unless player ignores quest)

some actual quests that encourage teamwork with your tribe could also helpful
at moment its basically just "enter/create tribe and say hi"

also a quest branch dealing with defensive builds could be slotted in after the 50sword quest
and an offensive branch could probably be expanded upon to include more then just send out 100 farm runs

 

[gimily104]

1. In what ways do you agree or disagree with our changes? What do you see as positives and negatives?
I agree with the general overhaul, as many players get stuck on the initial noble quest (path of conquest V?). I do think the build order change will be good, since, for example, I may go straight into expanding my resources during the grace period, ignoring troops somewhat (world setting dependent).
2. Why shouldn’t we change the quests at all and instead keep the current system as is?
N/A
3. What are our current quests’ biggest weaknesses? Strengths?
-Biggest weakness - Conquest V not being able to track when you've already nobled a village prior to reaching that step. I feel it's a little backwards.
-Biggest strength - getting you through the early game quickly. Nice and helpful when it's your 30th+ start.
4. How would you adjust our plans for the new quest system?
Get more players involved in the beta process to make sure they think it's accurate enough for new players.
5. How could our quests better introduce players to concepts that will help them be successful in Tribal Wars?
By using short videos / pictures. Or examples of situations (possibly involving the simulator)
6. Should we slant the quests towards a more defensive play style so that new players have a better chance at surviving?
Yes, since experienced players can ignore this if they are used to it.
7. If players are rewarded for constructing buildings, do you think most will focus on boosting the same buildings every time? Which buildings?
I think they should focus on build completion times and troop build speed. There are already easy ways of boosting resource production via PP.
8. Do you see openings for abuse with this new system?
Easier temptations for 'pushing' situations, since they may be able to grow faster.
9. What type of knowledge and skills cannot be taught via quests?
Back timing, sniping, sending mass fakes. These take time and experience, but if no-one wants to teach you, it's difficult to learn. I also think a final build example would be helpful as many new players fully upgrade their villages, gaining points, but wasting a lot of valuable troop space.
10. Should the new quests include more advanced tactics like back timing, sniping, and noble trains?
@question 9
11. AOB?
-More incentive for players to mentor. Currently, the only reward for a mentor is an achievement. Meaning many mentors don't finish because they get distracted by their own account & don't dedicate time to the mentee.
-More links to the TW Wiki page, helping players expand when you cant fit all the text on screen.
-Per-world endgame scenario explanation.
-Easy ingame referal to specific scenarios - e.g. What to do when being attacked by nobles / trains.
-How tagging works with Watchtower (world specific)
-How churches work (world specific)

 

[A Humble Player]

1. Players will receive resource rewards for any successful build action, up until a threshold.
The goal here is that new players are rewarded for interacting with the build system, but returning players can customize their build orders without being penalized for not following the early quests

Oof this is terrible. This encourages players to do the wrong things in the earlygame.

2. Quest lines will be untangled and have fewer dependencies on other quests, allowing players to focus on specific concepts one at a time and with more focus

This is good. In fact, I'd go further and entirely separate quest rewards and quest hints. Give rewards for achieving specific actions, but don't merge them. For example, I currently have a quest to reach wall 5, clay pit 6 and timber camp 9. Optimal earlygame strategy suggests pushing timber camp higher much earlier, so these should be three different rewards: a reward for timber camp 9, a reward for clay pit 6, and a reward for wall 5.

3. Quests will no longer always reward resources or units. Some quests may not have a reward. Others may still offer resources, units, or items, but likely for specific milestones like getting halfway through the quest line or for completing it

Reasonable.

4. The overall intent is that players can always perform build actions without needing to wait for long periods of time for “wrong” decisions in the opening hours of the game, while also making quest lines simpler so that they teach specific concepts to new players more effectively.

I mean, performing the wrong build actions will still lock you up in the earlygame anyway. You want to guide people toward reliable income, which means either mines or spears + scavenging, or (and this is generally a bad idea now) spears to LC for farming.

1. In what ways do you agree or disagree with our changes? What do you see as positives and negatives?

you've correctly identified the shortcomings, but I don't see how the solutions fix them. You don't appear to "solve" issue 2 at all, and that will result in beginners still getting stuck.

2. Why shouldn’t we change the quests at all and instead keep the current system as is?

Yeah no, current system is bad.

3. What are our current quests’ biggest weaknesses? Strengths?

The weaknesses are that it pushes players in specific (and sometimes wrong) directions, and it's confusing and low information, since you can't see the later quests and the relationship between them. You're only ever able to push for "the next thing", without long term planning. And TW is all about long term planning.

4. How would you adjust our plans for the new quest system?

If I were designing from scratch, I'd say reward specific actions, and make the rewards make sense for the strategy the player is following.

- Wall 5? Get some sp/sw. Wall 10? Some more sp/sw. Wall 15? Even more!
- Reward an upgraded timber camp with mostly wood (maybe enough to produce a few spears), iron mine with mostly iron (enough res for some LC?), and a clay pit with mostly clay, but a more even spread (buildings).

This rewards good players for why they might be already be doing, and nudges new players in the right direction. These rewards should look like achievements, and be mostly out of the way (not big intersitials)

Separately, add contextual nudges for players to do good things. Maybe one intersitial that experienced players can opt out of, but that gives more guidance. This should discuss various approaches and strategies. Mines, scavenging and farming. Defense etc. These nudges should be contextual, for example, a nudge appears 24 hours before beginner protection ends suggesting that if you haven't already, you push your wall to 5 or 10 and build some scouts to defend against nosy neighbors. Early nudges note that if you want to build mostly spears, you need higher timber camp, if you want to mix sp/sw, you can use more even mines.

5. How could our quests better introduce players to concepts that will help them be successful in Tribal Wars?

More focus on simulation and such. There's scary stuff telling me that my 5 swordsmen might die every time I send them farming, even though that's actually optimal.

6. Should we slant the quests towards a more defensive play style so that new players have a better chance at surviving?

I'd certainly make it an option.

7. If players are rewarded for constructing buildings, do you think most will focus on boosting the same buildings every time? Which buildings?

Yes. Or at least they'll focus on buildings at the cost of other things. Probably most mines.

8. Do you see openings for abuse with this new system?

Unclear, like it rewards players who do tight/clean startups more, so I'm not sure. It depends on the reward sizes.

9. What type of knowledge and skills cannot be taught via quests?

Analysis of an area and the impact of world settings on play. How does the length of BP, or the number of barbs near you impact your startup strategy?

10. Should the new quests include more advanced tactics like back timing, sniping, and noble trains?

Trains, maybe, but encouraging a new player to push for a train in their first village is *probably* the wrong way to go.


Please let us know your thoughts!

It might be interesting to review this page to see the current quest system:

https://forum.tribalwars.net/index.php?threads/tribal-wars-quest-flow.283766/

Your Tribal Wars Team
[/QUOTE]

 

[Tha Rule]

I have a suggestion, For new players let them get the QUEST for the first year of game play. All of us vets that played for over a year don't get any of the Quest.. That give new players some what of a chance to get a little edge over the rest of us ..... Yeah Quest are nice and stuff, But I be willing to forgo have them on the start of a new world. Maybe i get better villages to noble sooner when BP ends.....maybe I'm just being greedy who knows.

 

[AuroraMoon]

I have a suggestion, For new players let them get the QUEST for the first year of game play. All of us vets that played for over a year don't get any of the Quest.. That give new players some what of a chance to get a little edge over the rest of us ..... Yeah Quest are nice and stuff, But I be willing to forgo have them on the start of a new world. Maybe i get better villages to noble sooner when BP ends.....maybe I'm just being greedy who knows.

wouldnt the majority of "vets" just resort to the pp exchange earlier to compensate for the lack of quest res?? removing that little edge they gained....

also if you want to balance things between new and old players - just delay the opening of the pp exchange by 30days
thats either 30days after an account joins a world or 30days after world creation - could possibly remove 90% of all pp complaints in the process

now back on topic - gave some thoughts earlier
and personally highly disagree with separating the quests into individual tasks and rewarding players for doing each segment

am also curious if your looking to keep this as a:
*tutorial/guide to teach players the basics (which needs to be expended upon) ??
or
*a reward system to encourage players to repeat tasks and keep coming back (kinda like the daily bonus - just for tasks instead) ??

 

[One Last Shot...]

I have a suggestion, For new players let them get the QUEST for the first year of game play. All of us vets that played for over a year don't get any of the Quest.. That give new players some what of a chance to get a little edge over the rest of us ..... Yeah Quest are nice and stuff, But I be willing to forgo have them on the start of a new world. Maybe i get better villages to noble sooner when BP ends.....maybe I'm just being greedy who knows.

Some 'vets' still don't have the first idea how to play the game even with 10+ years of game play. This suggestion won't be fair to them.

 

[Tha Rule]

Some 'vets' still don't have the first idea how to play the game even with 10+ years of game play. This suggestion won't be fair to them.

well I wasn't going to go their .... But yeah I guess your right ...he he