Offensive/Defensive Nukes Discussion

DeletedUser

Guest
Hello everybody,

Seeing as the forums have become extremely dull over the past few days, with excess spam, flaming, I always enjoy discussing strategies, builds, anything TW related, as it's the reason why I play the game. The game itself is amazing, and the people who play it too. A discussion combines the two so hey :icon_razz: Anyway.....

So I thought I would extract parts from my puzzle guide and put together a discussion to both offenses and defenses for Archer worlds. So as usual, when going by with anything, I always try to apply what Purple taught me, the three most important factors in TW (No specific order):

Speed
Efficiency
Versatility

I'll start with my favourite, my defence. Unless I'm missing something, as you'll see, it is in fact better than OE's and most/every other defensive build I've seen and I'll explain why in the following. First let me start by sharing my defence build:

- 4005 Spears
- 3250 Archers
- 100 Scouts
- 2000 HC
- 160 Catapults

Now with this defence, I have covered all three factors. OE's HC strategy requires an extra 1.2 days to be completed, and yet it's not as powerful. Here, have a look at the simulator. I'll refer to OE's Defence as Defence 1 and mine as Defence 2. Now I tested it against an impossible offense, based on a larger scale of the popular offenses from both the better and mediocre players, thus increasing its versatility and efficiency whereas OE's one is a lot less adaptable to a worthy opponent.

Defence 1)

289eqe1.jpg


Defence 2)

rsdimo.jpg


As you can see, Defence 1 kills fewer troops in total, in comparison to my Defence 2. Defence 2 kills a higher amount of total troops. Furthermore, you can apply OE's strategy as it also includes more HC than OE's defence. So in conclusion:

- Mine builds 2.7 days faster (Speed)
- It's a better defence (Efficient)
- It's has scouts in it. (Versatility) (Allows fanged fakes)

Now onto my offense, again, I've applied the same concept to my offense, just as the defence. Speed, efficiency and versatility. Let's advance with the offense numbers:

- 6250 Axes
- 2940 LC
- 320 MA
- 225 Rams

Evidently, this nuke kills more against a commonly used defence of 8k spears, 2k HC and similarly kills more against another basic D of 6.6k spears, swords and arhcers all accompanied by a level 20 wall. It's not wise using more than 500 MA in any nuke (bar extreme circumstances). 54 MA can kill 500 archers behind a level 20 wall. Again, this was tested against OE's Offense; I'll name his one Offense 1, and mine Offense 2. Here's the simulator against the impossible defence. Keep in mind I also tested this offense against those defences listed above:

Offense 1)

28iyryx.jpg


Offense 2)

1eq70p.jpg


As you can see, with my Offense 2, a significantly higher amount of troops and resources are lost than the amount lost with Offense 1. So in conclusion:

- Mine builds 6.6 days faster (Speed)
- Mine is evidently stronger (Efficiency)
- It's effective against all calibres of opponents (Versatility)

Note: I think it's also worth mentioning, OE's strategy isn't necessarily bad, but he really hasn't taken into account the difference in barracks/stables, nor the overall build time of his count and aimed it at a mediocre audience.

As a final note, I'll leave you with this image to refer back to, so you can see efficiency, versatility, and speed, at its best :icon_wink: Also, both my O & D have exactly the same farm population so finding one suitable village build will maximize efficiency and make it harder for people to distinguish what type each village is.

8z3g39.jpg

(Note: The above image is of a speed 2 server speed, however, the general fact that it's faster than other O/D's is still applied)

So what offensive & defensive builds is everybody else going with?

/Sasuke Uzumakii
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I use basically the same offensive and defensive builds, I wonder why? :icon_eek:
 

DeletedUser4665

Guest
What about a defense of pure sword/archer?

What is the rationale of using cats in a defensive village (other than fakes?)

and yeah, I never understood the point of HC in any situation other than long distance support/emergency support.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
What about a defense of pure sword/archer?

What is the rationale of using cats in a defensive village (other than fakes?)

and yeah, I never understood the point of HC in any situation other than long distance support/emergency support.

Cats have decent defence.

HC also got pretty good defence.

But the reason for building HC and Cats is the time it takes to build a defence.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
What about a defense of pure sword/archer?

What is the rationale of using cats in a defensive village (other than fakes?)

and yeah, I never understood the point of HC in any situation other than long distance support/emergency support.

A pure defense/archer sword has a big flaw.....speed. Not to mention a decent LC/MA nuke with little axes could easily destroy it.

The whole purpose of including catapults is to reduce the overall build time. It's got a great defense too, and can be used as fanged fakes. A great all around unit.

The point in HC is quick shift support and great defensive measures when used with the correct combination.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The Reason behind cats:

Shave off the extra time in the Barracks, 160 cats = 1280 spears which I believe to be close to 1 day in a lvl 25 barracks
 

DeletedUser4665

Guest
right, now I understand :D

3 buildings operating instead of 1 or 2. :eek:

However, in offense 1, he uses hc for offense, yet lc build faster, and are generally more effective o_O
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Point of OE's strategy is to stack a village with HC... thus the reason of not using swords. Everyone knows, including OE that 1 offense to 1 defense, swords are overall better defense than HC... that is the sacrifice, but you gain mobility. I think you use too many HC in your primary defense, and I've dropped Cats out of my defenses entirely. I would also compare your defensive strategy to a more balanced offense... say 7600 axe/2300LC/500 MA/260 rams...

I personally use 2 defensive packages, and later in the world may add a 3rd.

In my honest opinion you never need more than 1 offensive build type.

Also pointing out that OE's offenses that include HC are less powerful than LC, he was also aware of this as well. It is his logic that all villages both offensive and defensive with HC in it, will overcome defensive deficits, and allow him to build a higher offense to defense ratio.

I've personally long since left the Openeye strategy, however, it is a great tool for newcomers, and to this day many experienced players incorporate different aspects of it. Catapults defensively are the worst defensive troop to build, especially in an archer world. (dropping archers + catapults and adding ALL spear and HC is faster than your defense).

Editing to add: Not using just 400-500 MA in your offenses will severely damage your attack capabilities. 500 Mounted Archers is maximum efficiency with archers. 260 rams is maximum efficiency against a village stacked with 3 balanced defenses. 230 to 235 (I forget) is maximum ram efficiency vs. 1 single defense.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
Archer/Sword/HC combo.
5,000/5,000/1200


How does that combo match up to your analysis?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
right, now I understand :D

3 buildings operating instead of 1 or 2. :eek:

However, in offense 1, he uses hc for offense, yet lc build faster, and are generally more effective o_O

Offence 1 is Openeye's offense, which is what I was comparing my offense with (Offence 2).

Likewise with defense
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Archer/Sword/HC combo.
5,000/5,000/1200


How does that combo match up to your analysis?

Horrendous idea... Horribly slow build and sword and HC are redundant.

A balanced offense will operate against this defense with good efficiency. A proper defense will react well against a proper offense. I would never build a defense to stop a "special" offense... that's what dodging and/or stacking are for.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Catapults defensively are the worst defensive troop to build, especially in an archer world.

I strongly disagree.

  • Catapults reduce the overall build time significantly.
  • You can use them as fanged fakes.

A Catapults defense levels:

General Defence 100
Cavalry Defence 50
Defence Archer 100

A Spearmans defense:

General Defence 15
Cavalry Defence 45
Defence Archer 20

A Swords defense:

General Defence 50
Cavalry Defence 15
Defence Archer 40

An Archers defense:

General Defence 50
Cavalry Defence 40
Defence Archer 5

It's betters every defensive unit individually, keeping aside that you can build more of the other units, however, the overall efficiency, versatility and speed factors of the catapult makes it more than worthwile to include it in your defensive nuke.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Add to the fact that if a world has a weapon chamber, and you have hundreds of catapults lying around, you can quickly get your paladin to a village where there could be hundreds of catapults in a very short amount of time.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
You must consider population.

Catapult = 8 population 200 catapults = 1600 of any variation of your foot soldiers.

Multiply any foot soldier by 8, and it exceeds catapult defensively in every category.

Yes, you lose some build speed, but not a significant amount... Even if you just add 1600 spears to your defense.

Personally in war, I will build spear/HC only defense, if I'm that pressed for time.

As for fakes, I can see that... I build catapults in my scout villages though... and typically I scout/ram fake from offenses. Multiple attacks from 1 single village will often get some decent scout reports. Also, makes faking from scout village that much easier.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Firstly it is WAYYYYYY to early for a thread like this, but anyway

D villa

HQ-20 = 99
Barracks -25 = 303

Stable -20 = 158
Acadamy -1 = 80
Smithy -20 = 395
Statue -1 = 10
Market -20 = 395
Timber -30 = 326
Clay -30 = 447
Iron -30 = 949
Wall -20 = 99


=20,739


7.000 spears
30 Scouts
2.300 HC


O Villa

HQ-20 = 99
Barracks -25 = 303

Stable -20 = 158
Workshop -15 = 72
Acadamy -1 = 80
Smithy -20 = 395
Statue -1 = 10
Market -20 = 395
Timber -30 = 326
Clay -30 = 447
Iron -30 = 949
Wall -20 = 99

= 20,667

6500 axes
3200 LC
250 rams
30 scouts


And btw, never have your villages the same, allways have a mix and have different types of D and O villages
 

DeletedUser

Guest
You must consider population.

Catapult = 8 population 200 catapults = 1600 of any variation of your foot soldiers.

Multiply any foot soldier by 8, and it exceeds catapult defensively in every category.

Yes, you lose some build speed, but not a significant amount... Even if you just add 1600 spears to your defense.

Personally in war, I will build spear/HC only defense, if I'm that pressed for time.

As for fakes, I can see that... I build catapults in my scout villages though... and typically I scout/ram fake from offenses. Multiple attacks from 1 single village will often get some decent scout reports. Also, makes faking from scout village that much easier.

Ok, I'm yet to come across a better defense. Find me one which builds just as fast, is stronger, and more versatile.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
@ SuperWolfie

Why would you not want the same villages? So that people can read my build and adjust their nuke? Go ahead? That is why many players have 2-3 different defensive builds.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
i've run hours of sims... crunched numbers etc... but that was over a year ago. I'm not going to dig up all that stuff. You wanted a discussion, I'm giving you one. I never said "my defense" builds faster than yours, but it will be stronger.

Catapult 8 population:
General Defence 100
Cavalry Defence 50
Defence Archer 100

Spear 1 Population:
General Defence 15 x 8 = 120
Cavalry Defence 45 x 8 = 360
Defence Archer 20 x 8 = 160

A Swords defense:

General Defence 50 x 8 = 400
Cavalry Defence 15 x 8 = 120
Defence Archer 40 x 8 = 320

An Archers defense:

General Defence 50 x 8 = 400
Cavalry Defence 40 x 8 = 320
Defence Archer 5 x 8 = 40

A pure HC/Spear Defense out performs the Spear/HC/Cat strategy, and actually builds faster than your defense... lower your HC 200, and spear 1500, add Archer, and it still builds near the same speed, and is more versatile than your catapults.


@ Superwolfe: Building different "point" villages is an easy way to profile your villages, your opponent will easily distinguish your offense from defense, once he's scouted you a few times, or been attacked a few times.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
what are you saying? (i meant dont have the same TYPE of Def or off troops, im not too bothered about the points)

(basically there is no such thing as a a 'perfect' def or off, it all depends on the attacker or defender and where you are located but the main flaw i see in sas guide is his high amount of archers which would get decapitated if the attacker uncluded MC)
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
what are you saying?

(basically there is no such thing as a a 'perfect' def or off, it all depends on the attacker or defender and where you are located but the main flaw i see in sas guide is his high amount of archers which would get decapitated if the attacker uncluded MC)

This is absolutely correct. This is why building a "balanced" defense is the best way to go, but the best defense is balanced, and is efficient both in build time, as well as population cost effectiveness.
 
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