Quantity or Quality?

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Bloodhood

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that's all he said and i can't find anything wrong with it

His first sentence says "I will not try to prove who is quality and who is quantity"

How can you not find anything wrong with that? As I spoke about in my post it is not about who is quantity or quality, but about quantity and quality of recruiting. He dismisses the argument as lame whilst showing a fundamental misunderstanding of the argument in the very first sentence.

It is very clear here who is right, his own baron on the first page of this thread came out in favour of what I said. Calling what was said before hand saying "I do apologise for it all, it was unnecessary".

the-king is right, this argument is going nowhere, since an outcome has already been found.
 

DeletedUser

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this another way of you saying, "i got ownd in pnp, i got no facts to show i have only slander to throw", and thus i wont waste to much time on you, but serious how many times havnt we seen some poor bastard coming on the externals puffing his chest, then when he get set straight he uses the "i dont care, i wont reply, see you ingame" i would be rich if i got a nickle everytime i saw that crap.

now i understand the basis on wich you have recruited your players, fail leadership, well i pitty the few decent players you have ^^

lol, why should i keep discussing with you, look at the word you use: poor bastard.

Dexa this is a game, you really should relax. This thread is not about you and yet you're acting like all your life depends on this arguement. I dont care anything you said as you're nothing more than a rabid dog in my eyes. I will not discuss with you, or waste my time on any bs written here, you already showed your calibre and I just laugh at such hate posts. Now go out and get some fresh air.
 

@the-king@

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Well, I am partial to certain fragrances out of France.

France? yea i suppose it's good keep using it and you may stop being a fool

the-king is right, this argument is going nowhere, since an outcome has already been found.

Ofcourse i'm right i'm always right but who said that an outcome has already been found?

Edit:
Now go out and get some fresh air.

that's a good advice
 
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DeletedUser

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His first sentence says "I will not try to prove who is quality and who is quantity"

How can you not find anything wrong with that? As I spoke about in my post it is not about who is quantity or quality, but about quantity and quality of recruiting. He dismisses the argument as lame whilst showing a fundamental misunderstanding of the argument in the very first sentence.

It is very clear here who is right, his own baron on the first page of this thread came out in favour of what I said. Calling what was said before hand saying "I do apologise for it all, it was unnecessary".

the-king is right, this argument is going nowhere, since an outcome has already been found.

no offense but this argument is lame and that's why i didn't want to participate in it

this argument should end like this : we in punch don't recruit anyone without knowing that he is worthy to join the tribe

and you in zombie recruit the same way as you claim so what are we discussing here ?:icon_confused:
 
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DeletedUser

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France? yea i suppose it's good keep using it and you may stop being a fool

Oh, I will, I can assure you. And I don't really think I'm being a fool, literal perhaps, but not foolish. But one must have their pretensions I suppose.
 

DeletedUser

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if right you mean we recruit skilled players then sure, your right :)
 

Bloodhood

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no offense but this argument is lame and that's why i didn't want to participate in it

this argument should end like this : we in punch don't recruit anyone without knowing that he is worthy to join the tribe

and you in zombie recruit the same way as you claim so what are we discussing here ?:icon_confused:

So you've decided that I was right so called the argument lame. This must be the 5th or so Punch player to do this so far.

Do you guys have no brains beyond bias?

Whilst just to inform you, this whole thread was in response to Punch! continually calling us mass-recruiting noobs on another thread. Since it was offtopic on the other thread, I have addressed the whole argument here. Your last sentence is actually what I claim, and what was being argued against. Thank you for agreeing with me.
 

DeletedUser

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awww its so nice to see all these punch members coming here to defend theyre leader :) makes my heart warm, and if they actually could read they would notice i never started the talk about phoenx, a punch member actually did :)

Back to topic tho, in your thread on strh sellsword made some comments on your way of warring, showing facts to back up his claims, your leaders then started throwing insults at him, calling his tribe a mass recruiting noob tribe, and yet you have no idea who he is, what he has accomplished or what his members have accomplished, you slander around insults all over the thread, and when you are presented with facts again, you puff you chest and say you dont care, you will go ingame and do what you do best?

Well from what i have seen your tribe are ranked 11 on oda and 27 at odd.

11 Who Are They? 1,90 Mio. ODA
27 Who Are They? 541.858 ODD

This in my eyes are just avarage, you claim to war other tribes, and yet chicken who aint even warring are just under you pre usual growth, tells you something doesnt it ?

The way your leadership and your members threw around insults that had no valid points or facts made them look like (wait for it) -------------- fool's (yes you guessed right)

phoenix where on 5th ODD and 24th as ODA,

5 Phoenx Reborn 933.010 ODD
24 Phoenx Reborn 963.924 ODA (not sure if this is accurate)

27 members did this, apparantly these members sucked balls, they had no diplomatic relations with anyone and still managed this against 360+ members, so yes you claim that phoenx is shit? i claim otherwise.

And now il be waiting for your "your a kid" arguments :) looking forward to it.

Dont you just love flame wars ?

When all comes to all punch aint all that. (facts shows this)
 

DeletedUser

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Zombie might be mass recruiters, from what I see on there forums, they're pretty organized, from the mails and circs I have read, they're helpful and polite. I personally, have not spoken down on any tribe, I am not going to start now.
Punch merged, it was a tactically sound move for us, just as it might be for zombie to recruit in 5 K's. Time will prove tough for them when the tribes that only recruited in that K come to shove... Then we'll see what they're made of.

Dexa, you enjoy flaming, but, know when to stop, what are you trying to prove, or are you just antagonistically speaking to provoke my tribe?
 

DeletedUser

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Tribe B is a massrecruiter. The word massrecruiter defines no quality, only quantity. So if you have 100 members, you are a massrecruiter. It is as simple as that, don't try to make it more difficult then it is. I'm not saying tribe A is better then B, because you could maybe call tribe A weak tribe for 'a bad merge?'(don't know if it was a good or bad merge, I wasn't here), or probably find another point to bitch about, but point stays, if you have 100 members you're a massrecruiter. The word on itself has no negative meaning at all, the only negative about massrecruiters, is the way that some/most players look at them because they do not like the playing style(probably because it is a style very often used by newbs/noobs).

The only way to define the better tribe, is to go to war, and see the victor. Even if one tribe has 40 big elite members, and caps more villages in total then the other tribe, and the other tribe has 100 members all noobs gotten through merges without sitting the invites, the last one standing is still the best tribe, no matter which tribe has better members or better ops. The winner is always the best(unless offcourse RL comes up, but lets keep that factor out of the point, eventhough the tribe of 40 members has a bigger chance of getting problems due to RL). The playing style of ones tribes may be more fun, or better, but as long as you don't win the war, the other tribe will still be better in overall.

I find this debate underhand and irrelevant to the PnP you're trying to make.
 

DeletedUser

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I was going to make a post without quoting anyone, with my own personal experiences on the subject of mass-recruiting, however...

Tribe B is a massrecruiter. The word massrecruiter defines no quality, only quantity. So if you have 100 members, you are a massrecruiter. It is as simple as that, don't try to make it more difficult then it is. I'm not saying tribe A is better then B, because you could maybe call tribe A weak tribe for 'a bad merge?'(don't know if it was a good or bad merge, I wasn't here), or probably find another point to bitch about, but point stays, if you have 100 members you're a massrecruiter. The word on itself has no negative meaning at all, the only negative about massrecruiters, is the way that some/most players look at them because they do not like the playing style(probably because it is a style very often used by newbs/noobs).

This is completely and utterly wrong.

"Massrecruiting" has from the very first world I played been defined as both the invitation and recruitment of a large amount of players, without any attempt made to determine their personalities or abilities. It is the acceptance of almost every player if not every player who applies to the tribe. It is recruitment in order to have more members and more points, as opposed to recruitment in order to have a better tribe. Now, I'm not saying I know anything about Punch! or ZOMBIE here, but purely based upon the way Bloodhood defines the recruiting process of Tribe B, they cannot be considered to Massrecruit, as they evidently decline players, and spend a lot of time and energy determining whether they are the type of players they want in the tribe. This act of screening in itself contradicts the very definition of mass recruitment.

Secondly, saying "The word massrecruiter defines no quality, only quantity" is also wrong. One might in the process of massrecruiting come across some exceptional potential, and even some good players. It is recruitment with an emphasis on quantity, but not necessarily without quality.

Finally, Mass recruitment in itself isn't a bad thing. How you deal with these recruits is what defines the wisdom of the approach.

Consider two tribes again, Tribe A and Tribe B. Both have decided that they cannot wait for good players to find them, and thus have decided to sweep their respective areas, inviting everyone who shows at least average activity.

Tribe A, having done this, then proceeds to do nothing about these new recruits. The leaders post guides, and tell the players to have at, answering questions as they come up, if they can answer them. Some players go inactive, others don't grow, but they leave them in the tribe until they barb out, or they need more space for new members, in which case the most inactive players are kicked. This, I might add, is the general setup of the Traditional "Massrecruiting" Tribe.

So what about Tribe B?

Tribe B takes the same approach to recruiting; inviting everything that moves in their areas. However, their tribal structure is slightly different. As well as the general leadership of the tribe, they have a slightly separate body, which deals directly with the new recruits. As new users are invited, these "Trainers", let's call them, deal directly with the new recruits, Directing them to the guides, asking whether there are questions, explaining the more intricate parts of the game (you just lost it). They sift through these recruits, and report on their potential and personality within the tribe to an overall coordinator. It is at this point that the organisation of Tribe B differs from Tribe A. If a player goes inactive at the start (no sitter set, no valid excuse) they are kicked from the tribe as soon as they go yellow. If a player does not partake on the forums, or doesn't ask/answer questions (as there is always a chance that you will recruit ok players that know roughly how to play, but the aim is to create a cohesive tribe that all communicate: there is no place for solo acts), then he or she is given a week, at which point they are kicked. If a player shows promise, however, if not necessarily immediate ability, they are accepted into the next level of the tribe, and if needed, given a specific mentor to answer their questions and help them out.

Weekly objectives would be posted. As each clump entered the tribe, they would be made into a group, and that group would be set a challenge. Grow X amount this week. Get this amount of troops. Farm this amount in a day (this is a controversial one, but probably necessary, personally I would make the target low, though) Send a sub-second (for example, timing can get better) fake-train at this leader's village. Backtime your mentor's scouts with a fake (scouts so that no damage is done to the village, and a fake wouldn't survive) etc. etc. If a user fails these tasks three times in a row, they are kicked.

Recruitment continues in this manner: Mass-recruiting entire areas, then kicking out the chaff as soon as it becomes apparent. In this manner, the tribe shouldn't choke (every now and then, tough decisions will have to be made in order to maintain a decent amount of farms, but it shouldn't be a problem too often), and this indiscriminate trawling is likely to throw up a lot of new, potentially great players, and has a much lower rate of False Negatives than an external screening process. The downside is that it would take a lot of planning and constant organisation, but if run well it would make an extremely interesting teaching tribe, and also be a fantastic way of increasing the general level of ability of usersin TW. It could even be adapted to a less extreme purpose, accepting any player who asks for an invite, and saying that you will do so on your tribal profile.

This shows that Massrecruiting isn't always a bad thing, it's just a matter of adapting it so that you don't end up with a tribe full of crap players. Moral of the Story? Think about what it is you're nay-saying before you run around slamming it on the forums. And that goes for pretty much everyone who has posted here, to some level or another.

Oh and as a Final comment: if you wish to comment on this post, please make the effort to read it. I realise that it is long, and that there are people who don't like reading long posts. But if there is one thing I cannot stand, it is users who read half a paragraph and then assume they understand what was said in the rest. DO NOT DO THIS. If you do, I will hang you out to dry for doing so. If you are not bothered reading it, then don't post about it.
 

DeletedUser57199

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The word massrecruiter defines no quality, only quantity. So if you have 100 members, you are a massrecruiter.
Well thats a pretty general statement warham... In my opinion a mass recruitment tribe can have 20 players and still be mass recruitment.

The word on itself has no negative meaning at all, the only negative about massrecruiters, is the way that some/most players look at them because they do not like the playing style(probably because it is a style very often used by newbs/noobs).
To me negating the quiality of the stock because of the quantity is not only negitive but some people might find that insulting.

But no.. Personally I dislike mass recruitment tribes because they feel they own you as soon as you accept the invite. The way the conduct their recruitment is very loose and unstructured strictly to claim you as much live stock as they can get their grubby mitts on...
From what I can see Tribe B (Zombie) don't seem to fall into the category of mass recruitment for a few reasons... well they kinda do, loosely but here is why I think that...

They seem well structured, well organized which to me tells me they are looking for a team to work efficently among themselves. Which means not every average Joe will get an invite because they have points, matter of fact, I got a reply at 500pts under an alias, and my poem sucked :lol:
That is what any good tribe aims for... they just seem to be doing it on a large scale.
They they have recruited across many K's, telling me they aren't all bunched up but rather giving space for their tribe to grow and wars to develop.
Sounds like a pretty sound tribe to me... :icon_twisted:


Now I can't give my opinion on tribe A vs tribe B, I haven't bee around long enough, both seem like pretty decent tribes with quite a few members and a lot of potential.. now a war between the two is little early, but I think we can count on it being a pretty epic war once it starts :)
 

Sellsword

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Good post, thanks for the contribution to the topic.

(...)
So what about Tribe B?
If a player does not partake on the forums, or doesn't ask/answer questions (as there is always a chance that you will recruit ok players that know roughly how to play, but the aim is to create a cohesive tribe that all communicate: there is no place for solo acts), then he or she is given a week, at which point they are kicked. (...)
(...) and that group would be set a challenge. Grow X amount this week. Get this amount of troops. Farm this amount in a day (this is a controversial one, but probably necessary, personally I would make the target low, though) Send a sub-second (for example, timing can get better) fake-train at this leader's village. Backtime your mentor's scouts with a fake (scouts so that no damage is done to the village, and a fake wouldn't survive) etc. etc. If a user fails these tasks three times in a row, they are kicked.
(...)
This shows that Massrecruiting isn't always a bad thing, it's just a matter of adapting it so that you don't end up with a tribe full of crap players. Moral of the Story? Think about what it is you're nay-saying before you run around slamming it on the forums. And that goes for pretty much everyone who has posted here, to some level or another.
(...)

One could argue that investing so much time in players who have been selected with only the following filter:
Petn said:
inviting everything that moves in their areas
is rather more time-consuming than selection at the gate, but I understand that you're not arguing in favor of mass-recruiting tribes with hyper-active aristos. Rather, the assumption that a simple fact such as the style of recruitment or the number of members in a tribe is by itself no basis for critique.

As a side note to your comments, I would also like to add that there's a certain beauty to not only recruiting people who can already play (i.e. relying exclusively on recruitment at the gate). I saw someone say on this very forum that the premades and direction choosing have destroyed the TW community, as it heavily favors those who can play already. I don't agree with that, but there's an element of truth in that statement, certainly.

@ Warham: the number of members has nothing to do with recruitment. That's just plain wrong. If there's a premade with 100 members, it wouldn't be mass recruitment either. The key words here are selection criteria.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Good post, thanks for the contribution to the topic.



One could argue that investing so much time in players who have been selected with only the following filter:

is rather more time-consuming than selection at the gate, but I understand that you're not arguing in favor of mass-recruiting tribes with hyper-active aristos. Rather, the assumption that a simple fact such as the style of recruitment or the number of members in a tribe is by itself no basis for critique.

As a side note to your comments, I would also like to add that there's a certain beauty to not only recruiting people who can already play (i.e. relying exclusively on recruitment at the gate). I saw someone say on this very forum that the premades and direction choosing have destroyed the TW community, as it heavily favors those who can play already. I don't agree with that, but there's an element of truth in that statement, certainly.

Oh sure, I won't deny it would be a huge amount of work, which is why I offered an example of how you could be more restrictive in the initial filter. My point was that even the most ridiculous "mass-recruiting" approach could be utilised not only to create a fantastic tribe, but also to do a great service to TW in general, doing a far better job of increasing interest in the forums, taking totally new players and making them at least average... I'm sure you can see the benefits. In fact, I'm fairly sure you've gathered everything from my post that I've reported here, but it's porbably for the best that I post this anyway!

As for premades... there is more than that to the damage they do to worlds. I would say that the optimal tribe is one that contains a small kernel at the core of experienced members, but that most recruitment goes on ingame. I have been part of many, many premades in my time, and absolutely none of them have lasted a full world, nor anywhere close to half-way. I know there are some out there who have, but the vast majority join, take over the forums, hit the activity slump and then leave a massive power vaccuum which then needs to be filled by other tribes... tribes that either are filled with inexperienced players which leads to a low-level skill world, or tribes that didn't take the premade route and have some decent players in them.

In essence, a tribe that is purely premade will not last: they HAVE to take in new recruits, as at least half of the tribe will stop playing before the two month mark. Eventually, they fail, and when they fail, they take all that potential teaching on to a new world, and yet another opportunity to refill the ranks of the intelligent posters and interesting players is missed.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I was going to make a post without quoting anyone, with my own personal experiences on the subject of mass-recruiting, however...

This is completely and utterly wrong.

"Massrecruiting" has from the very first world I played been defined as both the invitation and recruitment of a large amount of players, without any attempt made to determine their personalities or abilities. It is the acceptance of almost every player if not every player who applies to the tribe. It is recruitment in order to have more members and more points, as opposed to recruitment in order to have a better tribe. Now, I'm not saying I know anything about Punch! or ZOMBIE here, but purely based upon the way Bloodhood defines the recruiting process of Tribe B, they cannot be considered to Massrecruit, as they evidently decline players, and spend a lot of time and energy determining whether they are the type of players they want in the tribe. This act of screening in itself contradicts the very definition of mass recruitment.

Secondly, saying "The word massrecruiter defines no quality, only quantity" is also wrong. One might in the process of massrecruiting come across some exceptional potential, and even some good players. It is recruitment with an emphasis on quantity, but not necessarily without quality.

Finally, Mass recruitment in itself isn't a bad thing. How you deal with these recruits is what defines the wisdom of the approach.
1 mass, 2 recruiting. The extra value you give to the word, that massrecruiting means recruiting without screening, is not acquitted to it by everyone. I have seen tribes before, mass-mailing alot of players, and then mass-inviting alot of those that have potential, growing from 5 to 80 members in a small amount of time, but having talked to everyone before they entered first though. It is possible to screen everyone whilst massrecruiting, it is just more intensive. It may not be as common as massrecruiting noobs without barely talking to the players, but it happens as well. You are right when you say it is the recruitment in order to have more points and more members, but that doesn't mean that the players you invite are all newbs, or that the only quality you gain is exceptional or accidental, or that the tribe does not gain from it. Massrecruiters can also decline players. They may not be able to be as selective as an elitist tribe, but they can have standards and selection criteria as well.

You confuse a massrecruiter with a noob massrecruiter. There are good ways to use massrecruiting, without inviting newbs. It is narrow-minded if you think otherwise.

To me negating the quiality of the stock because of the quantity is not only negitive but some people might find that insulting.

But no.. Personally I dislike mass recruitment tribes because they feel they own you as soon as you accept the invite. The way the conduct their recruitment is very loose and unstructured strictly to claim you as much live stock as they can get their grubby mitts on...

That is also a generalization based on your experiences. True, 95% of all massrecruiting tribes are like that, but not all.
 
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xyziz

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1 mass, 2 recruiting. The extra value you give to the word, that massrecruiting means recruiting without screening, is not acquitted to it by everyone. I have seen tribes before, mass-mailing alot of players, and then mass-inviting alot of those that have potential, growing from 5 to 80 members in a small amount of time, but having talked to everyone before they entered first though. It is possible to screen everyone whilst massrecruiting, it is just more intensive. It may not be as common as massrecruiting noobs without barely talking to the players, but it happens as well. You are right when you say it is the recruitment in order to have more points and more members, but that doesn't mean that the players you invite are all newbs, or that the only quality you gain is exceptional or accidental, or that the tribe does not gain from it. Massrecruiters can also decline players. They may not be able to be as selective as an elitist tribe, but they can have standards and selection criteria as well.

You confuse a massrecruiter with a noob massrecruiter. There are good ways to use massrecruiting, without inviting newbs. It is narrow-minded if you think otherwise.



That is also a generalization based on your experiences. True, 95% of all massrecruiting tribes are like that, but not all.

This isn't about taking the denotation of words and throwing them together. This is using terms that have been used in tw since before you were playing. Just accept what you are being told, you are lacking quite a few years experience that Petn has, and that you will most likely never get (sounds harsher than it is, but the general community is dumbing down, and think getting rank 1 on a world is an achievement, or that OD is something that actually measures how successful a tribe is).
 

DeletedUser

Guest
1 mass, 2 recruiting. The extra value you give to the word, that massrecruiting means recruiting without screening, is not acquitted to it by everyone. I have seen tribes before, mass-mailing alot of players, and then mass-inviting alot of those that have potential, growing from 5 to 80 members in a small amount of time, but having talked to everyone before they entered first though. It is possible to screen everyone whilst massrecruiting, it is just more intensive. It may not be as common as massrecruiting noobs without barely talking to the players, but it happens as well. You are right when you say it is the recruitment in order to have more points and more members, but that doesn't mean that the players you invite are all newbs, or that the only quality you gain is exceptional or accidental, or that the tribe does not gain from it. Massrecruiters can also decline players. They may not be able to be as selective as an elitist tribe, but they can have standards and selection criteria as well.

You confuse a massrecruiter with a noob massrecruiter. There are good ways to use massrecruiting, without inviting newbs. It is narrow-minded if you think otherwise.

Ok, I see your point with the first part: you're saying that "mass" by definition, is a lot, thus if you recruit a large amount of players, you have to be mass-recruiting, regardless of your screening process? Similar to the was Mass-production is production on a large scale, but not necessarily of a lesser quality. I'm some ways, I agree with you, but I think that if you were to put a proper screening process on, you can't be "mass" recruiting. You could be recruiting on a large scale, but you wouldn't accept more than 50% of the people who apply. You would have to recruit selectively (which is directly in contrast to mass recruitment) in order to maintain quality. They might recruit 100 players, but they would need 200, 300 requests in order to get that sort of quality. And regardless of the amount of people you recruit, if you only accept 1/3 requests, then I cannot see how you could be considered to be mass-recruiting. That is what I'm arguing. it's two points of view, and two ways of understanding what mass-recruiting mean. Both are technically right, but I think the one that I am using is more true to the general understanding of the word as used in TW.

As for the bolded sentence, however. Did you read my post at ALL, after that first paragraph? I went on to give a perfectly valid use of Mass-recruiting in a clever manner. Not only that, but I went on to clarify in later posts that I felt that the act of mass-recruiting was not a bad thing, but it was how you used it that matters. Please, read posts in full if you ware going to comment!
 

HeftySmurf

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i love Petn's posts, but my attention span sucks to read them atm *will be back later to read*
 

Bloodhood

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1 mass, 2 recruiting. The extra value you give to the word, that massrecruiting means recruiting without screening, is not acquitted to it by everyone. I have seen tribes before, mass-mailing alot of players, and then mass-inviting alot of those that have potential, growing from 5 to 80 members in a small amount of time, but having talked to everyone before they entered first though. It is possible to screen everyone whilst massrecruiting, it is just more intensive. It may not be as common as massrecruiting noobs without barely talking to the players, but it happens as well. You are right when you say it is the recruitment in order to have more points and more members, but that doesn't mean that the players you invite are all newbs, or that the only quality you gain is exceptional or accidental, or that the tribe does not gain from it. Massrecruiters can also decline players. They may not be able to be as selective as an elitist tribe, but they can have standards and selection criteria as well.

You confuse a massrecruiter with a noob massrecruiter. There are good ways to use massrecruiting, without inviting newbs. It is narrow-minded if you think otherwise.

The fact is, that's not even how we recruited. It was mostly on a conversational basis with a large amount of players. Since you know both myself and Henchman, you certainly know we can talk a lot :icon_wink:

And good to see Petn joining in. Logical as always.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Just needed to ask this.

You say having 100 members is a bad thing. However from an outside the box PoV. If the leadership/aristocracy can handle 100 members with the same effectiveness and skill as working with 30 members (which admit it late game meta with active players of 100's of 1000's of points will most likely achieve) then why should a tribe be flamed and accused of mass recruiting?

The leaders of said tribes will have the same skill at the start of their tribe as they will at the point of the above mentioned bracketed comment (if not even improved some what)

As was said with the "screening" process kinda like the miners in the old west with a sieve looking for gold grab a handful of mud and find that nugget.

All I ask is why flame them for having too many members just because its apparently "noobish" and shows lack of skill in the tribe and their aristocracy.

Would you call a tribe with 100 members a "mass recruiter" if all the members were decent, active players, the leadership were admired and respected by many a tribe and they proved their prowess in battle of all shapes, sizes and opponents?
 
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