Rules and Unfairness

Discussion in 'Questions' started by Superdog, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Superdog

    Superdog Non-stop Poster

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    Tribalwars as a whole has seen a declining player base last few years so we assume changes should be made for the better instead of for the worse.

    Recently the rules have been rewritten could have been great because there are a lot of aspects to the game and there was some vagueness to the rules so clearing those up would have been convenient for the player base yet it seems (to me and others at least) this has not been accomplished at all.

    Vagueness has been increased instead of decreased, let me state a number of examples here:
    - Anything written in the game or connected services can be reported and be used as evidence against a player in an appeal or other support issues. If in doubt the interpretation of the messages will fall to the support team.
    Connected service is not defined anywhere on the tribalwars website and according to a support ticket it is just the external forums so why use "Connected services", this implies there is more than one connected service and only confuses players and increases ticket load on the mods

    - Publishing the content of any communication with the support team or other players without their full consent is not permitted.
    The lack of openness from the support team is concerning and makes players wonder if the rules are applied to everyone equally (which 106 has proven to not be the case recently)

    - As the support team has the right to ban scripts even if they abide by the rules, every script should be approved before usage. With there being a slim number of scripters in the recent days of tribalwars preserving these should be at least somewhat important to the support team as a large part of the paying player base uses scripts a lot. For a scriptmaker it is very discouraging to send in a ticket for approval and have to wait a month on a reply, that is not something that helps the player base.

    - The rules on merging accounts have also been changed, yet the rules on the rule page are vague and if someone would just read this it could result in a ban. There is more information about how to merge accounts yet this is not linked on the rulepage, it is linked in an external forum post which is easily missed by newer players.

    Besides these issues, there are also a number of balance issues which have only grown larger and have never been addressed by any mod. The actual value of the available items in the events are way different from the set price in the event currency which has been addressed multiple times yet the Anvil of the Mercenary King event has shown that no developer has tried rebalancing these issues since they were first addressed in a feedback topic. There should be plenty of data to be collected to rebalance these events and fix the meta which is currently broken.

    It is widely recognized that PP has a huge influence on the game, not everyone appreciates this yet there are plenty of people willing to spend money on the game so it's unlikely to ever change so personally I've accepted this. There are however a number of issues with PP spending opportunities between accounts. For example war packages come out for purchase every so often, however it only appears on one world out of the x amount an account is active on. Accounts with only one active world are guaranteed the offer on the world of choice however accounts active on multiple worlds (giving Inno more revenue) or playing a world serious and pp farming on one have the chance of getting the offer on the world they don't want it on. When Aliyah was CM she would switch over the packages to a world of choice (showing it is technically possible) yet the new CM JawJaw refuses to do this without fixing the issue only increasing the unfairness between players.
    The Anvil of the Mercenary King also had issues of unfairness between players in pp spending which I addressed with detailed calculations in the feedback topic yet no mod took the effort to reply to this showing no interest in fixing issues with the game and breaking the will of players to give feedback.

    We've seen the game we love drift further away from what we hope it would be someday and recent changes give little hope of improvement. I (and others) am willing to offer my feedback to help improve the game yet it just feels like the mods/developers have very little interest in this and are driving more and more players away so I'd like some feedback on these issues.

     
  2. Arcward

    Arcward Non-stop Poster

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    Just make a meme about it for the contest, they'll notice you then brother
     
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  3. Superdog

    Superdog Non-stop Poster

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    I followed your advice brother
     
  4. Shinko to Kuma

    Shinko to Kuma Non-stop Poster

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    My 2 cents on the scripter part. I started working on a barb shaper since we had no decent tools ingame for it and there was a lot of demand for it on 4/04/2019. I put in my first ticket that day asking legality of some of my thoughts to make sure I didn't breach any rules. It got disapproved, so I searched for another solution. Over the next month, I worked hard on finding a legal way to make the script while still giving the user all the functionality they could want, with the communities best interest in mind. I have been publicly outspoken about not condoning of cheating. I made a follow up question about another solution on 16/04/2019, asking if that solution would be legal. Since the script as a whole could be pretty impactfull, I assumed it could take a bit longer. But I didn't get an answer till today, 12/05/2019. I spent nearly 2 months of my life working on a script following the guidelines only to get told it's not approved despite following the rules cause it could be abused by 3rd parties.

    Not only does this discourage me from ever starting to work on another script, it makes me question why the actions of a select few that ruin the game for others have to punish the people that play the game legit.
     
  5. JawJaw

    JawJaw Administrator Tribal Wars Team Community Management

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    Hi @Superdog

    Thank you for your elaborate post. I'll break up your post in a few smaller bits so I can reply to them more easily. I hope you won't mind ;)

    Connected services quite literally is what it is... connected services. This includes the game, the forum, any blog we may have, any chat that we may have (owned by the Tribal Wars team and/or InnoGames). As different game markets may have different connected services (not all of them have a chat like NL, not all have a blog like TR, ... ) the terminology is defined to include them all: Services that are connected to the game - connected services. While I appreciate your concern about the ticket load on our moderators, I can assure you that the number of questions we have received about this terminology is 1 - your topic here :)
    But thanks for bringing it up!

    The rules are applied the same to everyone, and this rule is largely based on data communication legislations and GDPR (which I am sure you are aware of). Conversations in tickets are considered private conversations and are therefore protected by data communication legislation (both for you as a player, as for the support system). This means they are not allowed to be shared outside the support system, unless explicit consent by all involved parties has been granted. (which, for the record, is the same for all private ingame messages you send within or outside the game :) )
    I entirely agree with your point here! As I mentioned to the involved scripter, I totally get the frustation this has caused, but sadly it was not an easy decision to make because of the involved parties (which was not just me). The rules however do explicitly state the following:
    The Tribal Wars team may disapprove scripts at their own discretion, even if the script adheres to the rules outlined above.
    This means that we are allowed to disapprove scripts if we believe the impact on the game is too large and/or might be too easy to exploit.

    I am afraid you will need to check the rules page again as it is in fact linked on the rules page. Please scroll down to section 7 (Additional Account Rules).
    These additional rules have been announced (by ingame message + new item on the front page) to the entire community the same day they have been implemented, and, as announced, been enforced 5 days later.

    You may wonder why it is not under account rules, as it is not easy to find (agree!) - this is because merging rules are different across markets. Section 7 includes market specific rules, while sections 1 - 6 are the rules for all Tribal Wars markets.

    Thank you for this. I wish to point out however that we have only ran Anvil of the Mercenary King once. We can not possibly change events at runtime, so when exactly did you expect us to change this event?

    As for other events, I wish to point your attention to the announcement of the Traveling Merchant for example. The announcement clearly states several changes to the event that we have introduced that was based on community feedback.
    Therefore, claiming that we are not listening to feedback is simply inaccurate. It is difficult to address everything that is mentioned, but we do take into account feedback that is mentioned globally, feedback that outlines a potential issue or feedback that clarifies a certain unbalance in the game.


    I hate to be the bad guy here, but this is simply inaccurate. We are unable to move the actual offers between worlds, so even Aliyah did not have the possibility to do this. What we can do however is move the bought items from one world to another, which we have also been doing for the past 2-3 months (I am not sure from what point in time your case was originating, but it was probably from before this timeframe, which is yet another proof that we are actively listening to player feedback and changing our policies as a result!).

    If a package was bought on one world, and was untouched on that world, we will move items to another world on request. We wish to point out however that, obviously, we will not move items to for example an HP world where a certain sale was not active for anyone.

    Going back to one of my previous answers.


    Thanks for your elaborate post and giving me the opportunity to reply to all of your concerns. Please do not hesitate to ask for more information if something is unclear :)

    Regards,
    J
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  6. Superdog

    Superdog Non-stop Poster

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    First off, thank you for your extensive reply.

    This is simply not true, I know for a fact that in a skype chat of my tribe multiple people were wondering if skype was a connected service and as tickets aren't allowed to be shared multiple of them had to put in a ticket, myself included.

    I did not comment on a script being denied, I merely commented on the time it takes to get them either approved or denied which causes scripters to lose interest.

    Tribalwars has a beta server where i know this event was run first where playtesters should have figured out this event was broken on many different levels before it was released, besides that i can hardly believe developers come up with an idea, write the code and implement it in the game without proper calculations about the values and testing.
    The pp it cost to get an item was completely out of line with other events which devs should have seen coming before it was even released
    Even though this was not what i was referring to, I meant that the obvious issue of how overpowered warehouse resource packages are in combination with flag boosters and decrees, I'm sure the event purchases and item usage in combination with regular statistics. (I hope TW has implemented a data gathering system, if not it would be a real easy way to balance events in the future) Plenty of mods play this game at a competitive level as well and know that getting any other items that a res pack/flagbooster/decree and maybe good connections are just a waste because these specific items will get insane growth for the price. So having seen discussions about this before and the issue being widely known, I pointed out how releasing an event which is far worse in this regard than any event we've seen before makes players wonder if their feedback is even looked at.

    My wording here was unclear, I did in fact mean the moving of Bought packages left untouched across worlds as you just explained here. I did put in a ticket before that time, i know others have as well but unclear on the date of those, where they asked for the opportunity to have packages moved across worlds but simply got denied. Personally, I found the explanation amazing and wrong but sadly I'd break the rules if I'd share that here.
    I know myself and others would have bought packages and moved them across worlds if we knew this stance on the subject was changed, sadly there was never any communication on the fact and I just don't see the reason to ask the same question twice unless there is a reason to believe something changed.

    Totally understandable, however personally I would think someone in the support team would reply to feedback which clearly took a long time to write breaking down the entire issue backed up with calculations and not just pointing out a problem but also offering a solution seeing that feedback with far little effort does get replied to but that is just my humble opinion.
     
  7. SergeantCrunsh

    SergeantCrunsh Non-stop Poster

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    I hate to be the bad guy here, but this is simply innaccurate. At best case scenario it depends on the mod you got with your ticket (within your stated time frame of when this was happening) and I’ve seen it with my own eyes (both players receiving this opportunity and not). I think a part of what frustrates people more then anything is a perceived inconsistency Among how tickets are handled in many situations. It’s easy for players who are mad to claim things like “cheating” or “mod favoritism” but that’s an extreme end up the spectrum. However it does seem at times, in the last year or so especially, mods are at a minimum not on the same page with how specific issues should be handled and sometimes it feels like submitting a ticket is just an RNG wheel of what mod you get being more important then your actual question evidence or issue.

    In regards to the script part this applies too where we have things like the vault (an amazing tool that should be) allowed and even hosted on the externals but then something else which functions in a similar way under the hood with information centralization is deemed too powerful. Of course it’s your right to decline anything, it’s you guys game but if there’s going to be published rules past “all approval is at devs discretion” then those should be enforced equally and if there’s grey areas update them instead of leaving it up to discretion as a last second cop out when you wanna decline something that was created within your standards of rules. If you guys stand behind that decision (and it technically is your right) then why isn’t there an update to rules that set new standards scripts need to meet to be approved under whatever context you deemed in the first place?
     
  8. JawJaw

    JawJaw Administrator Tribal Wars Team Community Management

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    Hi,
    I am afraid this is not true. By internal policy, all premium and sale related questions are escalated to Community Managers (including myself and @mellofax ), and we are the only ones allowed to deal with these cases. About 3 months ago we have changed the policy to actually swap items across worlds, which we have also done for a few hundred players so far. So either you have seen it happen before this timeframe, or there was a policy breach (in which case I urge you to send me the ticket number in a private message so I can review it and see where it went wrong).



    Thanks, I was not aware of this, but yes - Skype chats are not connected services. Connected services are always owned/managed by a member of staff and/or InnoGames.

    I am afraid it simply takes a while. First of, a developer spends months of time (as Sophie mentioned here before, she spent 2 months developing it) to create a script of a few hundred lines of codes. We then need to take our time to review the code (entirely!), review the logic, review the functionality. When all these meet certain script rules, we need to determine potential impact on the game and if there is unclarity about this point, we need to involve inhouse developers or leads. As in any working development environment (imagine it being your workplace!), this sadly takes time. I understand the frustration, have apologized for it and will continue to do so. Sadly, if we want to do things right and correct (and not have it backfire in our face after a few months), we do need to spend time on it.


    I understand your concern and we always forward the information. It might however been that an imbalance in your eyes, might not actually be one if we check on a global level. For example, we do have a data gathering (and analyzing) system in place, and that might contradict (and sometimes does) feedback or statements made in a forum post by a single player (which does not mean we ignore it!). If we can correspond certain data with feedback, we will obviously try to improve it.

    Our development team is continuously asking for feedback from our moderators and community members. It will always be an important step in our development process. It is only because of this feedback that we can make changes in the first place. The feedback,however, has to be structured and make sense! I invite you to read the feedback topics of the last few years and find me posts that explain an issue clearly and in a structured way. We can not work with "bleh another event" or "it is just too imbalanced". Please explain us WHY this is the case and we can work with that! Yes, you will find some of these posts and we will carefully review these, but sadly this kind of feedback is barely available to us :(



    I understand the issue here and thank you for bringing it up, we will work on improving this in the future. :)
    I hope that now you know we are in the ability to do this and kindly ask that you create a support case next time this occurs!


    I understand this, however let me refer back to a post I once made in a feedback topic, and I hope you will understand:
    I hope this somewhat explains our reasons to stay out of certain discussions. The point is that if we reply to a certain point mentioned, the entire discussion will derail to that single point and others might not be inclined to give other (but still just as relevant!) feedback to us. Because of this, we might miss potentially critical feedback for the further development of the game. I understand that it might seem as if we are not listening at all, but you can take my word for it (and I know it won't mean much to upset players), that we do care and each and every post a player makes is carefully summarized and forwarded to our Product Management team.

    I hope I've covered all open questions like this, but please do feel free to ask if more come up :)

    Regards,
    J
     
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  9. SergeantCrunsh

    SergeantCrunsh Non-stop Poster

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    Ticket in Question was from 2/20 which is right around the 3 month window you said so could be my mistake. I'll drop thew ticket # in your DMs, thanks for taking time to respond.
     
  10. Sashaahn

    Sashaahn Non-stop Poster

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    1. Publishing the content of any communication with the support team or other players without their full consent is not permitted.
    I guess there’s a lot of ambiguity here.

    1 - what is considered publishing? Since not one of us are publishers nor do we fall under the same laws as publishers.

    2 - If someone abuses someone ingame - sharing the content of that message with a mod is illegal? How on earth can this be correct?

    3 - This rule, is horrifically written. There’s two different ways to interpret it. Both have hugely different meanings.


    One final note, every week a lot of people break this very rule on these forums, and are not ever punished. Quoting other players, shaming other players........unless this is enforced consistently we have no choice but to believe this is only gonna be used as an extra tool when someone is giving the support team trouble, and the support team will have an extra bullet to shoot someone with.
     
  11. JawJaw

    JawJaw Administrator Tribal Wars Team Community Management

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publishing
    'It is the activity of making information available to the general public.'

    I am not sure what you are aiming at here? Reporting illegal communication, by our rules and terms of use, is allowed (obviously). It is the same as reporting a death threat IRL to the police.

    It's not protected by data communication legislation if laws or rules, for which you have previously given consent upon registering your account (so prior to committing the breach), are broken. In which case both the reporting player as the support team have the right to take action.

    There is literally no other way to interpret this rule than how it is written....
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  12. Mintyfresh

    Mintyfresh Skilled Soldier 2018 Tribal Wars Team

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    Not gonna lie asking questions about game balance and asking for feedback on game mechanics to the general public is pretty flawed. People (as a mass) in any walk of life dont really know what they're talking about so 9 times out of 10 you're going to get pretty irrelevant/uninformed feedback. And i know you already know that so its kinda wierd you complain that the feedback given isnt of a high standard when you're not taking any steps to improve the quality of your feedback.

    You're a smart guy, you've been here and engaging in the community for a while now. I'm 99% certain you could come up with a list of names of people you know are knowledgeable about the game and would be capable/willing to give actual constructive feedback. Hell im willing to bet most of them will jump at the chance to have a proper forum for discourse of game development going forward provided its done in a proper environment. Nobody is going to take the time out of their day to post lengthy critiques of whatever you monthy feedback thread you post when mostly it feels like a waste of time. Half the time i post something (constructive or not) and there is either

    a) no response
    b) a response days/weeks later when its kinda moot at this stage because event or whatever is over.

    Like you cant have a productive discussion like that and its a flawed reasoning to expect so. Its kinda mind boggling how such a large and successful company has such poor lines of communication with its player base.
     
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  13. Sashaahn

    Sashaahn Non-stop Poster

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    Perfect, therefore forwarding/discussing private conversations is permitted with other players, as long as it is in private mail and not published for the consumption and viewing of the general public? As you stated, PM within the game is viewed as private therefore it wouldn’t come under the heading of publishing.

    Sounds good to me.

    Publishing the content of any communication with the support team or other players without their full consent is not permitted

    Let me see if I can try.

    1st interpretation

    Publishing the content of any communication(,) with the support team or other players without their full consent is not permitted.

    2nd interpretation

    Publishing the content of any communication with the support team(,) or other players without their consent is not permitted.

    Well, there you go. The same statement. One version requires you to get consent of a party with which you have already communicated with. The other version requires you to get consent from a party with which you intend on communicating with.

    Punctuation is quite important, who’d have known
     
  14. JawJaw

    JawJaw Administrator Tribal Wars Team Community Management

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    Thank you, would you believe some sort of a thinking tank would be welcomed / appreciated? Imagine we open a bi-weekly / monthly forum section about a certain feature / improvement and engage in a discussion about this subject specifically, where only structured feedback is allowed (non-relevant / nonsensical feedback will be filtered out by us)? How would you approach this?
     
  15. Jirki88

    Jirki88 Administrator Tribal Wars Team Community Management

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    Why are you trying to add punctuation where no punctuation is needed? The sentence is clear without any punctuation. But congratulations on achieving your ambition to sound like a pseudo-intellectual.
     
  16. Mintyfresh

    Mintyfresh Skilled Soldier 2018 Tribal Wars Team

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    Sounds like a good start to me, i'll support anything that makes any moves in forward direction towards changing the game for the better.

    My preliminary idea would be to have a specific forum thats restricted to certain people and the its made clear to the people with access that this is an area where you have high standards of posting, no trolling no 1 line posts etc. Then yeah have 'sponsored' debates where ideally you have an open conversation on a particular topic with (this is probably a daydream i know) members of the TW team beyond the community managers like yourself involved in some way in the process. Im not saying they have to actively engage in the discussion or it has to be a bigwig every single time but 'someone' should at least be aware that this discussion is a thing and read what reputable / upstanding members of the TW community have to say about things. Could also rotate around who can post/read/interact with this forum every few months so everyone feels like they have a chance to get involved

    Thats not a stab at your or jirki btw but correct me if im wrong generally you just pass feedback onto the developers right? It would be good to have some kind of other interaction even in an extremely minor way for starters with the mythical developers/people who design & implement TW updates.
     
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  17. Arcward

    Arcward Non-stop Poster

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    I believe a think tank would be a great start. If it wasn’t obvious by this thread, most of us that are usually outspoken about the moderation team have felt a general lack of communication/clarity on many decisions. As said above, this likely does not fall on you, but a line of communication with the devs/play test team would be great.

    To another topic - I believe I’ve submitted tickets 3 times in recent years just to fix an error in settings for a world on launch. The most recent occasion, sitter settings on 107 were still set to a 48 hour cooldown (from release of the previous HP world). In the past, I believe speed settings and rune dominance % were calculated incorrectly. I am curious, is a check sheet implemented when a new world is released to ensure everything is set correctly?
     
  18. Sashaahn

    Sashaahn Non-stop Poster

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    Because if you don’t add punctuation one way or the other, there are two ways to interpret the meaning of the rule.

    Minty, regarding a think tank, I believe it’s a great idea. As long as it’s populated with a good cross section of players. Casual players, big PP spenders, PP farmers, old school pp haters etc etc.

    Could be some great improvements to be made, as long as they’re not just aimed at one section of the community.
     
  19. Goldie

    Goldie Guest

    words are wind
     
  20. JawJaw

    JawJaw Administrator Tribal Wars Team Community Management

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    Thanks for the suggestion. We will discuss the possibilities internally and come up with something soon.
    As for this part, no offense taken, but it is more than being a glorified mailbox :D
    Community Managers are actively involved in the design and development process and we are made aware of the roadmaps, intentions behind the game/feature at each stage.
    We know where the designers, product managers and developers intend to go with the game, we know where they don't want to go and we know why certain decisions are made. Developers are however... developers; They write code, they don't talk or defend their decisions in front of a community. That is my job description.
    Because of this reason, I'll already tell you now, a discussion with game designers / game developers is never going to happen. Everyone has their job, so we will keep it that way. :)
    The community management team is here to form that bridge between community and development, so you'll have to do it with us.