Scavaging sucks

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DeletedUser124863

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I'm posting the numbers that includes every player on each of 3 different worlds. It includes all players - those who prioritise scavving and those who prioritise farming also.

Actually, you have no basis for that proposition. And even if you did, your very argument is confirmation that you are relying entirely on decisions that have already been made in order to determine what decisions should have been made, or should be made in the future.

If farming was so much better, why are the farming numbers not higher. People would prioritise that more and farming would out-do scavving.

Highlighting this here to underscore that your entire position is based on decisions that people have made. It's question begging and bandwagoning all at the same time.

The point still stands though, and has clearly been demonstrated by raw data: scavving...doesn't suck.

Actually, all you are offering is anecdotes. I very explicitly asked you to provide simple raw data, and despite the fact that you've "run the numbers" you still can't manage to do that. So maybe we can make this a little more simple yet....

Answer this question for me: Let's say that I currently have my spears hauling 9 resources per hour. What amount of spears should I send on what scavenging runs in order to gain better hauls?
 

HotLikeDat

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The numbers i have provided are data, whether you like it or not. Even if you don't think they accurately depict the average player, it still compares the best farmers on any world v the best scavvers.

Spreadsheets are theoretical. Working out optimal farming or scav numbers depends on many factors, activity area competition troops you have etc etc etc. you name it. They're useful for advising gameplay, but you have to consider human factors. Like, it's not likely that most accounts will resend troops to scavving the second they return home. For example: If you incorporate a 5 or 10 minute wait into your numbers, the optimal numbers to allocate to each level slightly shifts.

I find real practical examples from real worlds that are currently on going more useful. And people are managing to get more res from scavving than they are from farming on a number of worlds... This doesn't mean farming sucks, people should do both if they have the time! But scavving is seriously significant, even slightly OP on some smaller worlds with few barbs where farming sucks imo. But that's just my taste.

As for your question about 9 res per hour, i mean i think you can work that out for yourself big guy
 

HotLikeDat

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I mean I posted here to try and assist you, scavving doesn't 'suck' (depends how you define suck I guess), but it definitely is worth doing. Any decent player with a calculator and a brain would agree with that. If you don't want to do it, fine, you're the one who'll lose out lmao.

Not going to try and convince you of something you don't believe in cause I don't really care. Do what you want and have fun - it's a game after all
 

Old Titan

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I'm discounting UK servers as I don't play there or know what it's like so I'll just talk about .net servers. you were wrong in your first line hotlikedat, sorry.

"I'm posting the numbers that includes every player on each of 3 different worlds. It includes all players - those who prioritise scavving and those who prioritise farming also. It's not skewed at all"

your numbers for .net 113 were extremely skewed. sure tudadar scavs more then anyone else farms, he's twice the size of the next biggest player from his pp spending, lmao.
in fact, tudadar is 5.198480008811543‬ times the size of the next best farmer but he only scavenges twice as much as that player farms. as you can see the numbers don't add up. so why would i waste valuable farm space on SPEAR men when LC are way more profitable. it's ridiculous.


let me continue...


Maybe you are better than me! - ye

Maybe you're more active! yes

"you're not that good at farming" like what? You literally don't know me or anything about me, bit of a strange opener. - just making assumptions based on the current player base :)

rank 2 and rank 3 should try a new game cause they can't hack it? - you probably should! (lol jokes, sorry)

I was r2 looter and r1 plunderer on w89 for the majority of start-up having been in the core. - wasn't that a P2W world?

As for the numbers, I mean jeeeez. "You don't know how to farm and you, and your cos, don't know maths" - is everyone wrong except you? Does everything you touch turn to gold? if you can't argue the reasons I've given then you have no leg to stand on my friend.
Don't you get a gold crown for number one account? so I guess you could say stuff i touch turns to gold haha, sweet.



careful who you come at with no math and no reason ;) at least make it difficult to argue with your reasoning or math! :/

just provide some sort of proof that scavenging doesn't suck compared to farming, we're just tryna have a conversation here haha
 

DeletedUser124863

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The numbers i have provided are data, whether you like it or not. Even if you don't think they accurately depict the average player, it still compares the best farmers on any world v the best scavvers.

And once again, by doing so all you are serving up is a giant slice of selection bias.

Spreadsheets are theoretical. Working out optimal farming or scav numbers depends on many factors, activity area competition troops you have etc etc etc. you name it. They're useful for advising gameplay, but you have to consider human factors.

You're really all over the place. On one hand you're pounding the table saying "data, data, data!" Now you're saying to forget the data because the "human factor" basically makes it moot. This is kettle logic.

Like, it's not likely that most accounts will resend troops to scavving the second they return home. For example: If you incorporate a 5 or 10 minute wait into your numbers, the optimal numbers to allocate to each level slightly shifts.

Not at all, actually.

I find real practical examples from real worlds that are currently on going more useful. And people are managing to get more res from scavving than they are from farming on a number of worlds... This doesn't mean farming sucks, people should do both if they have the time! But scavving is seriously significant, even slightly OP on some smaller worlds with few barbs where farming sucks imo. But that's just my taste.

Again, selection bias. Also, an admission that your position is personal, not evidence based.

As for your question about 9 res per hour, i mean i think you can work that out for yourself big guy

You're the one who claims to have "run the numbers" and that you're a major math wiz. But you can't produce the numbers, for some reason. All you have offered is anecdotes, selection bias, and evasion.

I mean I posted here to try and assist you, scavving doesn't 'suck' (depends how you define suck I guess)

If you posted here to "help" me then why do you continue to be so evasive about producing the math? But you're the first one to finally notice that the subjective nature of my terminology is partly relevant.

Any decent player with a calculator and a brain would agree with that.

And yet, you still can't articulate a reason why. I started this thread because I wanted people to confront the cold, hard mathematics of the subject. Sure enough, there's been plenty of insults, distraction, self defeating logic, claims of possessing magic information, and fingers-in-ears reactions. But nary a calculation to support anyone's decision to employ scavenging.
 

HotLikeDat

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I started this thread because I wanted people to confront the cold, hard mathematics of the subject.

You started this thread to bait people, clearly.

"Scavaging sucks" (it's actually spelt scavenging)
"Change my mind"

If you wanted to address the mathematics you'd have laid out some data, perhaps from current worlds, explaining how farming is giving you say 10x more income than scavenging for half the effort, when ur putting 200lc into both. (god-like area perhaps). I've used more reasoning and logic than you have. if you put some numbesr up, maybe I'll share some of mine - but I don't tend to share the spreadsheets that take me time to create with randos on the forum.

:D
 

HotLikeDat

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Without sharing my own spreadsheets, this is from one already available on the forum. I cba continuing this pointless debate much longer - you guys are wrong, you just are wrong, and saying you're not doesn't change anything.

Part 3 (New):
How will SCAVENGING be more effective than FARMING on UK World 46. (Was based off Us43 so sorry for discrepancies)

After analyzing the world 43 TW data, I have seen that the current barbarian village ratio is at 7,9 (barb,bonus).

This means the for every player village created, .07 barbs and .09 bonus villages are created.

Doing some quick math, that results in 6.25 players PER abandoned village.

While this number is frightening, you must also consider that more than half of players don't even understand the concept of farming and refuse to farm after doing the initial quest.

Let's just assume there are 3.0 semi-active farming players per abandoned village. With a current barb rise of .002 (Rise is usually .002 or .003) that means - If I'm not mistaken - that there is a .2% chance every minute that the barbarian village will level up a random building. This means that on average every 500 minutes, a building will be leveled up.

8a93b39090fbcb864f9160db11400dd3.png


https://gyazo.com/8a93b39090fbcb864f9160db11400dd3


With 8 beginner options of potential village level-ups, there is a 3/8 chance that a resource camp will be upgraded, which increases base production from 5 resources per hour to 30 resources per hour (speed 1 world).

On average, it will take a barbarian village 1,333 minutes before leveling up each resource camp and if you hit the average, it will be ~4,000 minutes before a barbarian village has all camps level 1 (Does not account for HQ lvl 3 - Barracks, wall, market etc)

4,000 minutes is a long time to get that SWEET JUICY loot of 30 resources x 3 every 60 minutes.

It takes 4,320 minutes of game time to equate to 3 days.

So let's say by day 3 you have 1,1,1 pits. These pits will produce a combined amount of 2,160 resources per day. With possibly 3 players farming each barbarian village, that 2,160 may only result in a cut of 700 resources for you :oops::oops:.
e8a9dfac83fbeddcc82828c399f20222.png



Now, what does scavenging offer you that farming or Micro-farming does not?

50 spear fighters on DAY 1 (on speed 1 server) will bring a return of 6,200 resources using the humble haulers option (speed 2 brings 12,400).

Seriously, are you going to wait until day 3 to micro-farm with 2sp/sw and hopefully get 700 resources from each DAMNED barbarian village per day, or are you going to just stick to your friendly scavenging tool and bring a steady flow of resources in on a daily basis.


Sure, if you can find a modest balance between farming and scavenging, I would suggest you follow what best suits you. However, if you're farming after the initial 500/500/400 resources are gone from that adjacent barbarian village within the first 1-2 days, I can't help but warn you that you're doing something wrong and that you should review this guide.

I actually am not a huge fan of scavenging, because data suggests to me it is so important it has de-valued farming quite significantly, something which I enjoy and has more skill than scavenging. Scavenging is low effort and low skill, so even if it doesnt bring quite as good returns a farming, it still doesn't 'suck'. why dont u put some definition to your 'suck' anyway
 

DeletedUser124863

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If you wanted to address the mathematics you'd have laid out some data, perhaps from current worlds, explaining how farming is giving you say 10x more income than scavenging for half the effort,

No. First, because I know that people in this game are often set in their dogmas. They want to believe they are the best and know the most. It's social status, for them. That's why you have noobs who beat their chests like gorillas and not have the first clue what they're doing, and vets who repetitively lay out intricate account/tribe merger strategies (sometimes starting before a world begins) so they can win a four continent map and convince themselves they're the TW Bobby Fischer.

You must unlearn what you have learned. You must start with your own math, so it can be decomposed. The reality is that most people don't actually want to be bothered with applying math to the game. They simply want the veneer of applying math.

And in reality, as this thread is showing, most people don't even have any math to show. Somebody told them scavenging is better, so they just went with it because it felt good, it was easier, it gave them a sense of superiority without having to earn it.

when ur putting 200lc into both. (god-like area perhaps).

Oh, for crying out loud, 200 LC is "god-like" farming?

I've used more reasoning and logic than you have.

If that's what you believe, then you need to take some classes. All you have are selection bias anecdotes.

if you put some numbesr up, maybe I'll share some of mine - but I don't tend to share the spreadsheets that take me time to create with randos on the forum.

Oh, and evasion. You've also offered evasion. You're doing it again here.

Okay, you want some numbers? I'll give you some numbers:

75% < 100%

That is, itself, sufficient for the inferiority of scavenging to be accepted, prima facia. If you believe that you can mathematically demonstrate that 75% could actually be greater than 100%, then let's hear it.

Without sharing my own spreadsheets, this is from one already available on the forum.

Oh, don't worry, I believe you. I really believe that you have bothered to do the secret maths that unify general relativity and quantum mechanics, reveal the location of Atlantis, and demonstrate the productivity of scavenging, too. Thank you for not showing them to me so my face doesn't melt off like the Nazis in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

But, just a tip....if your own secret maths are anything like the alternate you've posted, they're ridiculous. What you posted is an absolutely laughable analysis. And, in fact, everything I've seen attempting to evaluate the scavenging is terribly lacking. Everything that has been said about it is either laden with unjustifiable assumptions, fixated on irrelevant details, and so on. It weights itself down with over complications, then fatigues before it ever gets to anything concrete or useful.

you guys are wrong, you just are wrong, and saying you're not doesn't change anything.

And that is why you aren't simply holding onto a dogma.
 

DeletedUser124863

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Scavenging is low effort and low skill, so even if it doesnt bring quite as good returns a farming, it still doesn't 'suck'. why dont u put some definition to your 'suck' anyway

Hunny, my 'suck' has plenty of definition, trust me. ;)

Okay, kidding aside, the question finally starts to fall in the ballpark, so I'll answer.

Scavenging "sucks" because in virtually all situation, trying to fuel your growth to prevent becoming an early farm (or othewise being dealt an early exit), scavenging will result in less growth than farming, when employing run-of-the-mill farming practices. If you have x troops, and you need something to do with them, you have a decision to make. Either send them scavenging, or send them farming. In nearly every scenario, the more profitable decision will be to send them farming. That much should actually be anticipated on its face, because scavenging only offers a maximum 75% haul capacity, and the time required for scavenging scales so that total capacity increases total duration. So it really only takes a 6th grade math level to be suspicious of scavenging being particularly useful.

That being said, there are instances where scavenging will be useful. Just not the ways that seem to be widely held as common "wisdom."

Much of the thinking on scavenging seems to revolve around the idea of finding a balance between x number of troops for farming, and z troops for scavenging, attempting to capitalize on both. This thinking is flawed, the most basic reason being that it is built on the assumption that scavenging is more or less equally as profitable as farming. Another major flaw is to look at scavenging as a simple question of investment/return in a one-off transaction--i.e. one can send troops scavenging and quickly enough net a profit on the cost of building the troops, therefore scavenging is said to be worthwhile. That thinking entirely circumvents any comparison between scavenging versus farming. But most importantly, it fails to understand that time is the most important resource in tribal wars.

The correct way to decide if/when to use scavenging is to assess your current and reasonably anticipated farming as resources per hour, and compare to the same for scavenging. In fact, this really underscores the terribly misguided thinking that seems to permeate regarding scavenging. When it comes to farming, we all know it's a question of efficiency. But when it comes to scavenging, efficiency questions go out the window.

(Based on a speed 1 world) If you have 100 spears, and you're sending them out to farm once every two hours (whether because of your activity level, or travel distance), then they will generate 12.5 res/hr, 9.3 res/hr, or 6.3 res/hr, based on 100% hauls, 75% hauls, or 25% hauls, respectively. These are simple benchmarks, easy to calculate, and easy to reference. Level 2 scavenging will only generate 3.4 res/hr, and level 3 (which would take very nearly two hours, incidentally) would only yield 6.8 res/hr. So, if implementing basic micro-farming practice will allows you to collect farming hauls about 75% full, then you should send those spears farming. Period. The only reason to scavenge in this case would be if the hauls are coming in around 25%. And in that case you should put them all into level 3 if it's available, not split them up between levels.

The decision making is that simple. None of this even takes into consideration that scavenging has investment costs that have to be recouped.

The question then becomes, if you should bother making troops just for the sake of scavenging, and how many you should make. And for the most part, the math does not favor investing into extra spears just for scavenging purposes. Because as you are pushing out these troops, the value of scavenging with them only increases fractionally. That value has to first catch up to the income value from farming with them. And yes, it's true that with more spears on hand, the value of their average farming potential decreases, because micro-farming will require either an increasing travel range, an increase in number of nearby farms, or an increase in those farms' production in order to avoid empty haul space increasing as the size of the farming group increases. But nonetheless, farming value and scavenging value will first have to converge, which basically means that the cost of spears to get you up to that point is itself an additional investment before scavenging even starts to make mathematical sense. And after that, the net profitability itself will only be incremental. So, after investing in maybe 600 additional spears that you wouldn't have otherwise built, you finally reach the point where scavenging produces 1.5 res/hr more than farming with those 600 spears. At 90 resources per spear, it would take 36,000 level 3 scavenging hours for the investment to fully be recouped.

Scavenging is just not very useful for the early phase of the game. It takes a great many troops before scavenging can generate better income than farming. And to realize that potential, you have to commit those troops to very long tasks. Scavenging is, instead, most ideally suited to stages of the game where players have many villages, many troops, and particularly large turtled players who can devote a substantial number of spears to scavenging while still having enough available to stack against attackers.

And this is the ultimate reason why scavenging really and truly sucks. Because it was a feature that was supposed to be beneficial to newer players, players who were comparatively smaller, and players who were less active. But in fact, scavenging increases the leverage of larger players can exert over smaller players, later starting players, while making it more advantageous for larger players to avoid fighting it out with each other. Scavenging makes it easier for larger players to maximize resource income with relatively little activity, while smaller players would have to exert obsessive activity levels to maximize their income, because farming will be more productive for them. It greatly benefits pp abusers, who only want to click the easy button as they artificially inflate themselves very quickly so they can just ride the momentum of their mass for the duration of the world. And as a result, it is a major contributor to the game devolving into fast, small worlds of less and less interest. Players who start a world later will end up at a more extreme disadvantage than used to be the case, and end up more likely to quit early and never return.
 
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Tha Rule

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May I chime in here for a sec? Okay now who cares!! Scavenging has its perks, You all have to have troops to survive, Right?? so who cares what troops your making use all types for Scavenging. You can set how long you need them out for so they are back for what ever else you need to send them out for. Scavenging is free resources with zero troop loss. Farming you can lose troops granted if your diligent the troop loss wont matter to the resources you gain. So in short you get Free resources from both and one with minimal troop loss. Who doesn't want free resources?? Only a fool would say they don't. Now not point fingers saying that Stormy a fool, But if the shoe fits.....
 

Deleted User - 11549951

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Ok I am not blocked anymore xD
Of course there is an advantage to the game in scavenging. Emphasis on: You can do the same in the long term without scavenging.
Its like watchtowers. They are an easy move for an experienced player in defending. no more sniping fakes xD

I think the whole point of the discussion was that Scavenging may be detrimental to the game.
 

AuroraMoon

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scavenging is for defensive players
farming is for offensive players

both are dependent on player choices and the efforts/time they put in
scavenging = low risk, guaranteed return
farming = higher risk. variable return

both can out perform each other if pitted against each other based on how a person decides to play
 

Deleted User - 11549951

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You must look into the setting differences from 6 years ago compared to now.

there is very little opportunity for farming compared to how it used to be.
I dont really care so much for innogames profitability nor do i care for winning this game.
The majority of people who still play this are egotistical assh*oles. Let me not name anyone so i dont get blocked again lololololol

I am very lucky to have found a few which arent!

Scavenging is one of the reasons its so easy to upscale in TW today.
Its much easier to increase your number of villages in this petty and back stabing version of Tribal Wars i see today than in the one we played up to 2013.

Now, you go and do what you wish as the consumer of this game - You spend time and possibly money.
Either way, innogames will be happy to profit off your ass like any pimp in Hoe Street.
 
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Jaghatai Khan

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Scavenging isn't just for defensive players, everyone looking to make the most possible resources in a world that has scavenging should be farming and scavenging. You best ratio of those two depends on who is around you, your troop counts, and everything else mentioned in here. The best reason you have given for why scavenging sucks is that it was supposed to help new players and is another feature for experienced people to take advantage of to grow even faster than others. That part is true, but it's hardly the worst culprit in driving off new players. Some lovely scripts from Shinko To Kuma make scavenging so easy there is no excuse not to do it pretty well.
 

Deleted User - 11549951

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Given no one has responded to the topic i assume this can be closed down.
Its not a matter of how helpful scavenging is for you as it is a matter of the impacts of scavenging to the game. The consequences if you will.

If you simply speak of how useful scavenging can be to win a world; i just proved you the same can be done with no farming or scavenging.

The entire point seems to have gone over your heads as people get accustomed to change, be it for the best or for the worst.
Being i was not submitted nor did i consent to this change, ( just got back to playing TW and i'm on my way out as soon as people are no longer asking me to stay playing; as if it was up to me i would've quit as soon as quarantine ended ),
it is much more obvious what has happened to the game to me than a regular for the past 8 years.

This is being advertised as a series of Tribal Wars and rightly so. This isn't Tribal Wars anymore!

Perhaps Tribal Diplomacy or even Innogames' Piggy-bank xD
 
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Jaghatai Khan

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Given no one has responded to the topic i assume this can be closed down.
Its not a matter of how helpful scavenging is for you as it is a matter of the impacts of scavenging to the game. The consequences if you will.

If you simply speak of how useful scavenging can be to win a world; i just proved you the same can be done with no farming or scavenging.

The entire point seems to have gone over your heads as people get accustomed to change, be it for the best or for the worst.
Being i was not submitted nor did i consent to this change, ( just got back to playing TW and i'm on my way out as soon as people are no longer asking me to stay playing; as if it was up to me i would've quit as soon as quarantine ended ),
it is much more obvious what has happened to the game to me than a regular for the past 8 years.

This is being advertised as a series of Tribal Wars and rightly so. This isn't Tribal Wars anymore!

Perhaps Tribal Diplomacy or even Innogames' Piggy-bank xD

Diplomacy is half of war. No disagreements on this game being made to make Inno money though, but that's 2020 baby. We wouldn't do anything today if it wasn't for profit.
 

Deleted User - 11549951

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Spending my time on this game isnt providing me any profit xD
Im guessing the other players of this game can relate.

Point being this game has been over commercialized.
We shall see what the future of TW will be.
 

Deleted User - 848888788

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Given the decreased player population and how we have less barbs then before then i don't see how scavenging is not needed.

It absolutely is needed, i would also say that it adds another element of strategy.

Balancing out farming/scavenging and how to get best out of the system.
 
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