the dreaded religion topic

DeletedUser

Guest
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."

~Epicurus


thoughts?

or perhaps this video i made will provide a more accessible catalyst for discussion.

and just to put this in context, im personally a deist.

my bet on how long this topic lasts before flaming occurs: 2 pages.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
All I will say is look at the American news. An armed gunman walked into a church in Illinois I believe it was over the weekend, and shot the preacher while delivering the sermon.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."

~Epicurus

My incredibly quick 2 cents; so don't blame me for the lack of anything approaching depth of thought :icon_razz:

The logic is fallible: not acting to prevent evil does not make you evil/malevolent yourself. And most religions answer these in a variety of ways anyway. My personal answer: since evil can only be done by beings with a knowledge of the difference between good and evil (aka. a dingo that eats a child is not evil, merely following it's nature)(or, perhaps, with a capability to know the difference, anyway), and if God is for freedom of choice and decision, then God cannot step in to stop evil without compromising free will.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
yeah thats pretty much the golden ticket in terms of answering the question - simply saying "free will" basically nullifies the argument lol.

its an interesting thing to contemplate though -

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke
 

DeletedUser

Guest
yeah thats pretty much the golden ticket in terms of answering the question - simply saying "free will" basically nullifies the argument lol.

its an interesting thing to contemplate though -

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke

True, but the difference lies in the fact that he's talking about 'men', rather than 'God'. It's a truism, anyway - if you assume to the world to have opposite forces of 'good' and 'evil' striving for dominance, then if 'good' does nothing, 'evil' obviously wins. He's presumably looking at it from less of an absolutist perspective, and the real world is too complex to reduce to such facile concepts, but the idea essentially holds.

In any case... without the presence of free will, concepts such as 'good' and 'evil' cease to be at all meaningful :)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Yay a religion thread!

God can still be omnipotent and we can still see evil in our world. God in his love towards humans gave us the opportunity to be free. We're free to make our own choices, to do good deeds and bad ones.

And as another philosophy to think about is balance. Good cannot exist without evil and vice versa so don't expect the world to change anytime soon
 

DeletedUser

Guest
personally, i am an athesit. when i feel like being obnoxious, im a pastafarian. now, with this in mind, i make the following statements. the reason i do not believe in a 'god' type figure is very simple (other than the science that pretty well disproves everything about 'god')

the world we live in is such a horrible place. how can any deity sit and do nothing about those who would kill or subjugate anyone based solely in their difference is belief structures? just look at what has happened to humans as a whole in the last 100 years. you've got genocide around every corner, almost of all it because of religious beliefs. screw that. if your god supports such things, then who needs em?
 

chivalrous knight

Guest
Hmmm..i remember hearing a story about a Good Knight set out for a quest to kill an evil Dragon...He succeed in it, but the evil dragon blood spill out and taint the Knight's soul as well..

Hence, the Knight become an incarnation of evil himseld for killing the dragon..

That means true evil is to turn us into becoming like IT, even though we thought we can kill evil, but in the end, we become evil by killing..

So, God's wish is to preserve the kindness of mankind and humanity...knowing that the evil may put harm on us, but the teaching of god is to learn and know of Evil by not becoming an Evil by killing Evil.

Vengence and killing is only to further promote the influence of evil...Being a God of Goodness, is to teach us the true meaning of Goodness, but not to become our puppet master to act on us:)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'd like to compare that good and evil theory with Jedi and Sith...for any star wars fans out there, if you read the novels you will always see the Jedi constantly fighting with themselves if they should kill their enemies in order to defend peace...

Most of the time they're reluctant because they know that by killing their enemies they're on the path to the "dark side"

A simple example, look at Anakin in episode 3...he didn't become evil because he wanted to. He was simply looking for a power to help those he loved and in the process lost that objective and turned evil.

Ah star wars...it can be related to anything :p

Another example for you gamers...look at Arthras from Warcraft III (same thing)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
personally, i am an athesit. when i feel like being obnoxious, im a pastafarian. now, with this in mind, i make the following statements. the reason i do not believe in a 'god' type figure is very simple (other than the science that pretty well disproves everything about 'god')

the world we live in is such a horrible place. how can any deity sit and do nothing about those who would kill or subjugate anyone based solely in their difference is belief structures? just look at what has happened to humans as a whole in the last 100 years. you've got genocide around every corner, almost of all it because of religious beliefs. screw that. if your god supports such things, then who needs em?
belief in god is based on faith, which by definition can have no proof, which therefore means science is redundant in proving it right or wrong. something which has no proof by definition cannot be proven to be true or false.

and in terms of all the bad things that happen in this world, im going to grab that golden ticket again and simply say 'free will'.
 

chivalrous knight

Guest
Yes.. I agree with that as well.

When there are misfortunes happen to us, we always look for a Higher Power to help us, to eradicate all that is Evil, and usually we never thought whether the Higher Power that "Help" us is for Good or Evil.

True God or Gods (base on individual religion) of Goodness guide and give us insight that live our life in peace and fruitful... and when our lust or sins get over us, the compassion of God/s chose to lead us back or help us to seek redemption rather than "Punish" us instantly.

I will take the example from The Legend of King Arthur Instead, The Goddess in the Arthurian Legend chose to intervene by introducing "Excalibur" to the chosen one in the hand of Arthur, the aim is to unify the people of the British Isles and build a Camelot that will stand against all Evil and injustice. But when there is forces good, there exist forces of Evil....an evil that come out from the blood of Arthur himself due to his past sins, the Evil in the form of Modred.

Modred march with a massive armies to destroy Camelot, most King under siege will simply chose to retaliate by gathering his own troops to meet his foes. But by doing so, no matter what is the outcome , Evil always win, for Arthur himself is not purify from his sins.

Hence, the aid from Arthur's God or Goddess( there are debates whether Arthur is christian, follower of Druid or other lost religion) was a guidance to his own soul, Arthur's quest for the Holy Grail is not merely to find an ultimate artifact for eternity , it is instead to seek redemption and forgiveness within his own soul , Arthur found his Holy Grail within his own soul by forgiving the treachery of his queen and Lancelot. He had clear his doubts and his mind before marching to meet his foes and his fate.

Arthur defeat Modred, by killing his own fresh and blood as well, thus killing the evil of himself. But he chose to lay in peace instead of continue his own reign, for if he continue to rule with Excalibur, hatred will exist among Modred's followers , more killing will happen and there will always be doubts over Arthur's action (a manipulation from Evil to tarnish Arthur's Good name).

Hence, the King request Sir Percival to return the might of Excalibur to his Goddess, The Lady of the Lake, as the will to wield such weapon for Good is no ordinary task. Both King Arthur and Sir Percival resist the temptation of Greed by returning Excalibur to the hand of the Lady. Thus, here is a victory for the Religion of Good.

The victory of Good is NOT to cleanse all Evil in the land, but to preserve whatever goodness that exist from the heart of mankind, The King Arthur preserve his own code of Moral, of kindness, fair , honourable, just and bear responsible to the power he possess. And for that, his legend of greatness is able to long last until today, perhaps as a teaching from god.

I must first stated that i don't come from the British Isles or the western continents. But for the Legend of King Arthur to reach me from thus far only show that there is indeed victory for the Religion Of Goodness, to give example to generation far away of the meanings of Goodness :)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
i personally am in the middle, you can believe in god and say that he created us and everything else, or you can look at it scientificly and say that everything can be explained which disporves god but 90% of your scientific proof is in theory and even if its true it has a lot of coincedences(spelling) that can't really be explained
 

DeletedUser

Guest
i personally am in the middle, you can believe in god and say that he created us and everything else, or you can look at it scientificly and say that everything can be explained which disporves god but 90% of your scientific proof is in theory and even if its true it has a lot of coincedences(spelling) that can't really be explained

can be explained but not proven..
 

chivalrous knight

Guest
Hmmm... I cannot speak for everyone, but i can still remember the moment when the car hit me from behind about 8 years ago, the first thought in my mind was to seek redemption from my Gods, the time may only flow in few seconds, but at that instant lots of past deeds in the week before ran through my mind, and i realise i had made some mistakes like disrespectful to my parents and friends, which i actually seek forgiveness from my gods and plead to my gods to allow me an opportunity to make redemption of all my past mistakes and sins.

Everytime when an "Evil" thought or "Anger" ran through my mind from now on, i will keep on reminding myself of the promises i had made and the blessing of the prolonged lifespan of all these years.

The gratitude towards my gods had keep me at peace all these years, and everytime when misfortunes or ill fates happen to me again, there is always the reminder that i actually prolonged my lifespan and all those extra years had open my eyes to a lot of things and gain me extra wonderful experiences. Now, i finally understand what it mean by a sight of the sunrise mean an extra gain for us each day and the view of sunset will mean i had sail through another turbulent day unharm.
 

pyronixcore

Guest
True, but the difference lies in the fact that he's talking about 'men', rather than 'God'. It's a truism, anyway - if you assume to the world to have opposite forces of 'good' and 'evil' striving for dominance, then if 'good' does nothing, 'evil' obviously wins. He's presumably looking at it from less of an absolutist perspective, and the real world is too complex to reduce to such facile concepts, but the idea essentially holds.

In any case... without the presence of free will, concepts such as 'good' and 'evil' cease to be at all meaningful :)

But, the Bible itself states "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created" - I believe that would be somewhere in Genesis 1:27.

The point is, man is just like god. Man is gods shadow, his progeny, ultimately, his children.

We were given free will. Therefore god has free will. Man was not created equal, however. Some people are born into lives of servitude, some into royalty. Some are born with genetic deficiencies, resulting in a life of pain.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"

It defeats free will to restrict those who cause harm. But in gods image, when man causes harm, he is acting on gods will.

Then he is not omnipotent.

Man is not omnipotent, either.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Many humans are just the same.

Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

I would like to point out here that the modern bible is very different from version that existed prior to the early 1900's.

But I also found this:

"Two major deceptions arose in the 1800's. The first deception or lie was the unproved theory of evolution. This lie has grown into a religion that has absolutely no proven facts, but is taught in most public schools. This lie teaches that the first few chapters of Genesis is just a legend and are not really true. If the first few chapters of Genesis are not really true, than why read on and trust the rest of the Bible? Satan has deceived millions upon millions with this clever lie." (LINK)

Evil, and the concept of evil, are both fairly relative. An act of evil to one person could be an act of caring for another.

Let's look at an easy and well established question.

"If a man steals, is he a bad man?"

The answer is yes.

"If a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children, is he a bad man?"

Good question. If I were highly religious, I'd hit people like me with a quote from the Corinthians (2:17). Paul wrote that many would "corrupt the word of God" (He also warned us in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ".)

I think I'm losing my direction here, so next section!

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."

God is supposed to be all powerful. Revelation 22:18-19 "God loves all his children and does not leave them without guidance."

If god gave us guidance, then why are there so many innocent people suffering from disease, from pollution or other factors?

This to me raises another question.

Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?

1. Yes they do
1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
2. (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
3. (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No they don't
1. (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

(Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20)

Why would god allow the innocent to suffer for sins outside of their own control? Are not all men children of god?

These are simple questions. And I could spin them to make any point I wanted. The point I'm making right now, is that the subject is too broad. People have their own ideas of god, some are fundamentalists, some are non believers, and everybody wants to hear what they LIKE to hear.

It makes an argument of god virtually impossible to win.

I myself believe in Celtic/Pagan gods, but I don't rule out the possibilities of a single god (monotheism) or the ideas of family pantheons, etc.

Mark 3:28-29
“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—


I think I read too much.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
i've actually never heard of celtic/pagan gods, off to google i go
 

13967

Guest
The bigger questions are "Is there only one god? If so which is the real one? What if those who believed in him were wiped out/converted to another god that doesn't actually exist...?
 

chivalrous knight

Guest
I remember reading in many novels stating that, God or Gods cannot be destroy or abandoning his/her believers.

It is the God/ Gods' followers that may be abandoning/forget of their god/goddess...If the followers of a god/goddess cease to believe or remember their own god/goddess, the god/goddess will be forgotten until someday , there exist a calling for them once again.

Pagan Gods are a term given by the Roman for all non believers of the christian catholic... Pagan Gods include Gods of the Greek , Persia or scandanavian Deities.

A druid i believe, is the follower of Nature, they believe mostly the power of earth and plant. (Only base on my understanding)

The Greeks used to believe Gods like Zeus, Athena, Ares etc, but since the people cease to believe in them, so these Gods are consider forgotten (since no one remember the methods of calling them again)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Pagan Gods are a term given by the Roman for all non believers of the christian catholic... Pagan Gods include Gods of the Greek , Persia or scandanavian Deities.

technically it refers to any non-Abrahamic faiths, not just non-christian.

A druid i believe, is the follower of Nature, they believe mostly the power of earth and plant. (Only base on my understanding)

Druids were the priest/judge caste of the celtic society, and the celtic society had their own set of deities, many of which embodied different natural elements.
 
Top