The Scavenging Guide - The Future of Early Game Farming

Discussion in 'General' started by Scavenging Guide, Dec 9, 2017.

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  1. Scavenging Guide

    Scavenging Guide blocked

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    Disclaimer:
    I would just like to say that I'm Steve/Sustephen123. I have produced guides describing how OP/unfair events are and how to take advantage of them. If this post gets deleted due to my past, I'll leave it on the Tribalwars.us externals for people to learn from. I am currently not playing on any .net worlds nor will I do so until Tribalwars grants me the chance to return.

    So... Let's start this off by explaining scavenging by using a 100 Spear example from my beta account to test the new feature:
    (Take into account this was done on a speed 2 beta world, so the numbers will be halved on a speed 1)
    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/dfff270f37767558c962f9b975302afc

    As you can see here, scavenging is scalable depending on the features you've unlocked.

    The first grants 10% of maximum haulable income
    The second grants 25% of maximum haulable income
    The third grants 50% of maximum haulable income
    The fourth grants 75% of maximum haulable income.

    Here's an example with 200 spears:

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/284503ef14b6d3164fb987c1acb59003

    As you can see here, the resource values remain constant with regard to %, but scale (Not linear) with regard to time.

    Here's an example of light cavalry looting 5,040 resources (Same as image #2 in terms of loot)
    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/b7c98d2472171d8f8054fe52da86cd50

    This means that speed of troop has absolutely no effect here, deeming the best cost per loot haul troops the most valuable (Spear fighter)

    Let's sidetrack a little bit here:

    What does early game require most from the individual?
    In specific order
    1: Activity
    2: Premium
    3: Farming

    The most common issue with farming is the dreaded 1/80 microfarm loots or even for noobs sending 20sp/sw to get maybe 15/800 resources at the start of the world.

    Now, it seems that innogames has taken it upon themselves to add an extra 'farming feature' (Sadly it doesn't count toward plunders/total looted)

    What I'm here to show you that scavenging will either need to be nerfed due to the current state of the game, or people like me or other 'veterans' will take advantage of this and have enough res/troops to decimate every noob before as soon as they exit their generously granted 5 day beginner protection.


    Let's explain how early game works again - My early game guide was removed by innogames several months ago

    The world starts by offering 25,000 Wood/Clay/Iron in the Premium Exchange in EACH continent

    -Any decent player with a fair amount of luck with have easily bought 5,000 of each resource in their continent before the resources have run out.
    -Instead of rushing the typical lc rush, the meta will be changed towards upgrading your scavenging abilities (I honestly believe sp/lc mix will be best way) and you will easily be able to upgrade to level 3 scavenging by day 1.

    -By day 1, if you're a significant premium user (2000+ premium available for use) you'll EASILY have the resources to build the maximum of about 150 spears (depending on barracks level) on day 1, in addition to researching your lc, increasing your pits, blah blah blah.

    So... what can we see on a level 3 scavenging with 150 spearmen?
    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/d27207611f216604056c10e5e2387561

    On a speed 1 world, this should take about 3:20:34 so you will receive 8 of these runs per day, with no fear of spikes, minimal hauls, or literally any statistical discrepancy.
    If you budget only 75 spears while farming with 75, you'll see your run time distances actually go down significantly, allowing you to do 12 runs in a day.

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/2dc4dbea2860d0fbf0037fbf570bafe5

    The big thing though, is to statistically budget your level 2,3,4 (Level 1 isn't work it) scavenging abilities to minimize resource income.

    Here's a 24 hour excel sheet example (Done for speed 2) with 150 spear men:
    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/c9506086d972dde73bba2eb4fee63be4

    Took some time, but it's worth it to show you the results of mixing up your runs by not solely focusing on putting everything into the possible theoretical scavenging run.

    On a speed 2 world, you can actually easily have 300 spearmen by the end of day one if you have that level 5+ barracks, but for the sake of everything, we'll pretend it's speed one and divide these results by 2.

    By following this method, you'll have looted a guaranteed 18k+ (assumption of maximum efficiency), and this is not counting what you'd have looted via LC from normal farming, or with your spears/swordsmen from farming the filled 500/500/400 new villages before you had upgraded your scavenging to level 3.

    This is just part 1, will be adding part 2 which will explain scavenging level 4, talk about how newer players can benefit, show cost-benefit analysis of spear investment, and go into further explanation that this will give premium-scaling players an unfair advantage.
     
  2. Scavenging Guide

    Scavenging Guide blocked

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    Part 2:

    Scavenging Level 4 (costs 10,000/12,000/10,000) & Scavenging Scaling:

    At around possibly 600 spears, I'd say you can probably routinely/daily unlock the ability to get scavenging level 4, so I'll use the example of 600 spears here.

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/fc1d0f384e08c7c0810c727b73c62b23

    Here's what you'd see.

    Recall:
    At 150 spears the times for 2,3,4 were:
    1:03:15
    1:40:17
    2:15:26

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/b8f62dc64ca87abeb33f4f0a29ac8fd3

    What you can see here is the problem with diminishing returns. Although you have an investment of 4x 600 spears, you see a return not even 2x that total amount.

    What you want to do in this case is to diversify the portfolio by equally allocating your troops to a ratio system by putting equally distributed amounts in each level rather than putting them all in 1 basket.

    Here's what happens when you put 200 in each:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/9c3c52eb187c8e86d641f6ca10e82f6c

    That would be about 85K looted per day with just 600 spears on a 2 speed world, or roughly about 42.2k looted per day on a speed 1, probably day 3 of a speed 1 if you push 24.7 spears + premium + level 7 or so barracks.

    This would take literally 0 of your LC, contribute nothing to your looted per day total, and would be a great wood sink when you're 24/7 producing lc.

    To average a statistical distribution of 42.2k resources per day (14k each res), you'd need resource pits of level 21 EACH (616*24=14784). The cost-benefit ratio of building these spears makes building resource pits insignificant early game, unless you have resources to spare with both lc and spears running 24/7.

    As you go up the curve, you'll see much more diminishing gains, here's an example of 1800 spears just to make an example.

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/3f5387a3ede5a4efb17ec623979f2629

    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/01043c4ff9940938577d435d9edf2c77

    New Player Benefit:

    New players can also benefit quite well from the scavenging event. Since the scalable rewards continue to scale very well up until around 100 spearmen, this can push new players to building more defensive units without any worry for losing troops attacking players or spiked barbs. This may create more hugging/less fighting, but can be a way to nurture new players and cause an opportunity cost for the vets.

    What's the opportunity cost here you may ask?

    The opportunity cost lies upon the predator who may be attacking the new player. The attacker may ask him/herself... Do I want to attack this guy, lose some troops and possibly get a daily reward of ~800 of each resource per day, or would I RATHER invest my time, resources, troops, efficiency into focusing my spears or axes - (Even though they loot 10 per attack, only Total AMT looted has an effect on scavenging times).

    This will give noobs a longer time to play, maybe a full 10 days instead of 5 days, before they receive scouting attacks, or incoming to attack their precious loot. This will allow noobs to build troops and have more defenses to protect themselves before attackers make their approach

    My opinion: Yes this helps noobs, but it will comparatively help very active players who know how to manage scavenging in a much greater fashion.

    Cost-Benefit Analysis:

    What does a spearman cost: 50/30/10 --> 90 resources

    What does a spearman loot: 25 resources
    A spearman loots 3.6 of its cost, making it the best cost-benefit asset of any unit in tribalwars.

    When it comes to early game, efficiency, cost-benefit focus, and farming are unrivaled by anything else in TW besides the use of premium points.

    For this, we'll use an example of 50 spears as that's a modest goal everyone hopes to attain in the first day of a world.

    Around this time, you'll probably have around level 2 scavenging as level 3 may be a little pricey (I think it's like 1k each resource) and the scaling at this level isn't too significant to warrant huge problems.

    [​IMG]


    Here, a spearman can loot 25% of it's full loot potential, and brings a return of 313 resources every 36:24. This produces a value of 3.5 spearmen, and a total of 12.4k resources per day.
    These 50 spearmen alone (On a speed 2 world) would bring you a return of 137.6 spearmen in ONE DAY ALONE
    [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/1c1ae894fed90e583701ca9c972ef96a

    These benefits are way too good for their input and I personally believe that something should be done to lower the advantages brought to the game.

    I came in writing this to explain how OP scavenging is and how much it will help veterans but I've developed somewhat of a newer idea on the subject.

    Reflection: This new ingame feature does the following:

    1: Allows premium users to insanely grow the first few days, gain a significant advantage, but then drops off that advantage by lowering the scaling for those who went all-in and sort of slowly evens out the playing field

    2: It allows players to develop a great spear system by pushing players to accumulate 200,300,400,500 spears, but then also leads them to invest the resources into other things like light cavalry/pits because the scaling gains slowly but surely decrease as you add more troops to each attack

    3: Will shift the focus on early-game farming to the use of scavenging, which hopefully deters players from attacking noobs and brings more people to the game because they'll get to learn and enjoy more before being slaughtered like a Thanksgiving turkey.

    4: The cost-benefit with a 0% Risk-index is too advantageous in a strategy game like Tribalwars. The numbers need to be adjusted and accounted for.

    5: This new ingame interaction will be very fun on the first few weeks that it's released in the world. It will be replaced by farming after players pass about 1/2 of their max farm space, but it will always be wise to continuously use about 200 spears on each scavenging option to gain loot which rivals that of farming gains.

    6: The scavenging option may provide an interesting take on No-Haul/Limited haul worlds if introduced, as it will deem players un-lootable but will also add an edge to the really stupid early game tactic of maximizing resource pits with putting no resources into troops.


    Hope you've read all of it and I hope you've enjoyed this in-depth guide on the concept of scavenging. This was made because US32 is being released soon and I wanted something to teach my tribemates as I'm now leading tribes to bring more of a learning/cooperation aspect to the game, to help teach players what they should do.

    Maybe I'll be unbanned here soon if I'm lucky, but until then you can catch me under the username Report on the Tribalwars.us server or under the skype username sustephen123

    If you have any questions or feedback, please skype me as I love to learn, teach, and enjoy speaking with others about the game and my math involved with these guides
     
  3. Schizophrenic

    Schizophrenic Non-stop Poster

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    Reflection: This new ingame feature does the following:

    1: Allows premium users to insanely grow the first few days, gain a significant advantage, but then drops off that advantage by lowering the scaling for those who went all-in and sort of slowly evens out the playing field

    2: It allows players to develop a great spear system by pushing players to accumulate 200,300,400,500 spears, but then also leads them to invest the resources into other things like light cavalry/pits because the scaling gains slowly but surely decrease as you add more troops to each attack

    3: Will shift the focus on early-game farming to the use of scavenging, which hopefully deters players from attacking noobs and brings more people to the game because they'll get to learn and enjoy more before being slaughtered like a Thanksgiving turkey.

    4: The cost-benefit with a 0% Risk-index is too advantageous in a strategy game like Tribalwars. The numbers need to be adjusted and accounted for.

    5: This new ingame interaction will be very fun on the first few weeks that it's released in the world. It will be replaced by farming after players pass about 1/2 of their max farm space, but it will always be wise to continuously use about 200 spears on each scavenging option to gain loot which rivals that of farming gains.

    6: The scavenging option may provide an interesting take on No-Haul/Limited haul worlds if introduced, as it will deem players un-lootable but will also add an edge to the really stupid early game tactic of maximizing resource pits with putting no resources into troops.


    Hope you've read all of it and I hope you've enjoyed this in-depth guide on the concept of scavenging. This was made because US32 is being released soon and I wanted something to teach my tribemates as I'm now leading tribes to bring more of a learning/cooperation aspect to the game, to help teach players what they should do.

    Maybe I'll be unbanned here soon if I'm lucky, but until then you can catch me under the username Report on the Tribalwars.us server or under the skype username sustephen123


    Im not going to try and debunk all of it but i cant agree, the premium exchange too was meant to even the playing fields, but it got abused people found ways to make the market update quicker than others by altering code, to the extent sniping the market was harder than any other train.

    I might be wrong but we are looking at adding something to a game that will just benefit the few, adding one more thing to learn about for the beginners which are the players we lose immediately, they will enter a world knowing only what the quest tells them, where some players have bought res and have as you put it 'insanely grow', as you can see on worlds the slow starter rarely wins.

    I cannot see this being the solution to a problem of a declining player base due to 'the elite' finding ways to exploit the game making it impossible for the 'noob' to survive past start up, thus never fully immersing themselves in the social aspect in the game. It is that social bond between players that enables retention and i feel that is the selling point of the game that is never marketed, what makes tw so special is the vibrant community we have here.

    I see the solution being revolved around slight tweaks to even the fairness of the world:

    Premades:
    Obviously this is number 1 enemy to the 'noob' the tribes with experienced players the ones that have farmed pp and have more of it than a millionaire could afford, the people who can noble before their beginner protection is over. My solution to this would be start a world, where you can choose no direction and can relocate in no specific direction.
    Or have a system where players are almost seeded into K's like the groupings they do for the football world cup.

    Seeding per K:
    1 world winner
    2 mid game players
    4 beginners

    Secondly the quests are not enough they barely show you the basic's why not use @Marshyyy awesome tutorial vids, to actually show them how to play. That way when they get nobled they dont feel like a blind kid being pistol whipped.

    Thirdly i get that TW has had to become a game revolving around micro transactions, but seriously would it kill them to only allow a player to buy a certain amount of res a day in relation to what is in the market i.e 10%
     
  4. My favourite part is when he switches accounts half way through :D
     
  5. twenty-five

    twenty-five Contributing Poster

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    Code:
    1: (((0.1 * capacity) ^ 2 * 100) ^ 0.45 + 1800) * 0.6830201284
    2: (((0.25 * capacity) ^ 2 * 100) ^ 0.45 + 1800) * 0.6830201284
    3: (((0.5 * capacity) ^ 2 * 100) ^ 0.45 + 1800) * 0.6830201284
    4: (((0.75 * capacity) ^ 2 * 100) ^ 0.45 + 1800) * 0.6830201284
    General pattern is:
    Code:
    (((loot_factor * capacity) ^ 2 * 100) ^ duration_exponent + duration_initial_seconds) * duration_factor
    
    In case the constants vary, the factors can be found on your page by viewing source and finding "ScavengeScreen" and then reading the JS object there. https://jsonformatter.curiousconcept.com/ may help for making it more readable.

    Time formula for uk35 at least, some of the constants could vary across worlds I guess. It's easy enough to find the formula in the JS source of the page too if you really want.
     
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  6. McCree

    McCree Active Member

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    So basically tldr: get 600 spears and put 200 each in lvl2,3,4 ?
    Scavenging lvl4 seems so expensive though :eek:
     
  7. Old Hobby

    Old Hobby Active Member

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    Firstly, lets be real, it's near impossible to implement a feature that benefits noobs more than 'veterans'. Obviously there are a few ways ie morale or being unable to attack a noob if you are experienced etc. But in general the reality is that any feature you put in the game, even when beneficial to the new player, will almost always benefit the experienced player more.

    Back on topic though -
    No. You need to be splitting more efficiently than that. I don't know any coding or anything so I can't even find the source code to sift through, but apparently you can do that if you know how, to be able to find the factors relevant to the world. Based on the above mentioned figures for UK35 though, you can actually get excel to tell you what the splits are. If anyone can get the factors for 98 and post them that would be great.

    For now though, you can download my excel sheet here, which is based on something made by @JSluggy.

    How it works:
    1. First, open the document on excel (I am unsure if it will work on google sheets)
    2. The only thing you actually have to fill in is your troop counts, where I've highlighted green.
      • Once you hit LC I'd recommend only using spears and the 60 swords you end up with if you did the quests for scavenging. As mentioned earlier on this thread, sp/lc is probably your best bet. I'm not even bothering with axes for now.
      • You will see next to each unit under 'send per spear' how many of each unit to send per spear the calculation will give. (So if calculation says send 10 spears, you'd need to send 25 axes to fill that quota
    3. Go to tools -> Excel Add-ins -> check the box for solver.
    4. Then again, tools -> solver. This opens a dialogue box.
    5. Set Objective: click K6, and select 'max'.
    6. By changing variable cells: this depends on which levels you have unlocked. If only up to level 3, select cells G2 - I2. If Lvl 2, G2 - H2, and G2 - J2 if lvl 4.
    7. Subject to the constraints: Click add. In cell reference, click K2. In constraint click L2. The sign in the middle must be '='. Click ok.
    8. Click solve. Give it a second, then when the dialogue box comes up, click 'Keep solver solution', and click ok. I'd advise also first clicking to save the scenario. This way it's quick to re-run. You will now see in the box for Qty of spears how many spears or the equivalent of how many spears if you're using other units as well, to send per level. This will maximise your loot per hour.

    The way to use this best is when you wake up, or any time you have no scavenging runs out, or if your troop counts have changed significantly at all. When any of the above is true, re-enter your new troop counts in (obviously excluding any you are keeping at home or using to farm normally), then run the solver again. Then as soon as a scavenge returns, resend those troops and anything else that's trained in that time. This way you keep your troops working all the time, and your recruits will constantly be cycled in as well. Doing this will maximise your loot per hour, and is clearly more efficient than just sending 200/200/200. (For 600 sp 209/205/185 is actually most efficient with only the first 3 lvls).

    Also worth noting, don't use your pally to scavenge (except right when you start out). His res bonus is greater than his contributions to loot per hour.

    As I said, if anyone has the correct factors for 98, please post them. And if anyone spots any errors in the sheet or anything also please do say!

    Edit: Thanks @JSluggy for providing the correct figures for 98. I have re-uploaded the spreadsheet, so now it's accurate for 98 :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  8. cobratix

    cobratix New Member

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    Must share this fine little thing which i found out , boosts for increased haul % also applies to scavenging .
     
  9. Rypsterbull

    Rypsterbull Contributing Poster

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    Tanks for the spreadsheat, it's helpfull, but one small detail.
    The time factor for LVL 4 is still in the original format, Twenty-five posted, I think you forgot to edit that one, so if you want to calc for lvl 4 also the results will be false I guess.
     
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  10. JSluggy

    JSluggy Still Going Strong

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    I never checked through Hobby's spreadsheet in detail, I'll let him know thanks for the catch ryp.
     
  11. Anonimys

    Anonimys Active Member

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    As a returning playing who hasn't had much experience with scavenging, I have to say - THANK YOU!
    This was very useful and I finally have an actual use for Excel's Solver, besides work.
     
  12. mmingo

    mmingo Active Member

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    how do i found the factor for each world?
     
  13. Eazy-E

    Eazy-E Non-stop Poster

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    Someone should make a script out of it (your troops and recommandation of dividing in terms of what you have)
     
  14. Saint Laurent

    Saint Laurent Well-Known Member

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  15. mn94

    mn94 New Member

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    This is a great post which helped me a lot to understand the connection between loot capacity and time.

    I would be highly interested into a mathematical way to calculate the best diversification a,b,c,d for an investment x (=loot capacity) in order to get the highest performance (=revenue/day).

    Here's what I've tried so far: https://www.geogebra.org/graphing/wywahj88
    t(x) are functions that calculate scavenge time y for an investment x
    v(x) are functions that calculate the performance y for an investment x (performance being resources farmed in a day)
    d(x) are functions that diversify an investment x to scavenge levels (using constants) and calculate performance y of this diversification

    t1(x) is for scavenge level 1, t2(x) for level 2 and so on...

    Constants in time formula were calculated on CH46 world using the recipe stated above. The dots in the graph were only for verification of the time functions.

    What I'm missing here, is a way to calculate the diversification constants that are used in d(x) functions for a max performance. Otherwise I'm left by trial and error.
     
  16. cheesasaurus

    cheesasaurus Still Going Strong

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    You want to maximize the combined loot per time.

    Let A(a) be the loot/time of putting a capacity into lackadaisical looters.
    Let B(b) be the loot/time of putting b capacity into humble haulers.
    Let C(c) be the loot/time of putting c capacity into clever collectors.
    Let D(d) be the loot/time of putting d capacity into great gatherers.

    Let F(a,b,c,d) be the combined loot/time.
    F(a,b,c,d) = A(a) + B(b) + C(c) + D(d)

    There's one constraint: allot the available capacity to a + b + c + d.
    G(a,b,c,d) = a + b + c + d

    You could use the method of Lagrange multipliers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  17. Shinko to Kuma

    Shinko to Kuma Non-stop Poster

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    I posted one I made a few days ago on the scripts subforum, after it got approved.
     
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