What Are Your Religous View

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DeletedUser

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I'm Christian. Why? Cause to me it's logic. Just look around you, only a fool would believe that it is evolution. If you know enough about the human body, and how we reproduce, then you'd know it is IMPOSSIBLE to all happen through chance.
In my opinion, you either believe:
1. We will be reincarnated
2. Go to heaven
3. Go to hell
4. We die and nothing happens.
Ask yourself. What if God was real? Where would you be? Heaven or hell? I'm sorry but I'm choosing the safe option, just incase ;)

I Would Rather Go To Hell The Real Lord Is There
 

DeletedUser

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i am not any one religon. I try to mix more of the beliefs from each religon. All of them are plausible i think. No one is really wrong but everyone is slightly right in my opinion. :) But i kinda agree with kdeb on this one. this thread might take a seriously bad turn if people aren't careful.
 
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DeletedUser62440

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kdeb you beat me to saying about the fool bit. This is why I said at the start that everyone has a right to their own opinion. They aren't a fool because they believe something. The truth is, I think that tiaco is wrong (because I believe there's a God) but that doesn't mean I need to call him a fool. What's agnostic?. I know what an aethiest (wrong spelling) is but not an agnostic
 

DeletedUser

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kdeb you beat me to saying about the fool bit. This is why I said at the start that everyone has a right to their own opinion. They aren't a fool because they believe something. The truth is, I think that tiaco is wrong (because I believe there's a God) but that doesn't mean I need to call him a fool. What's agnostic?. I know what an aethiest (wrong spelling) is but not an agnostic

an agnost is someone who doesn't know whether there is a god or not. while atheists are sure there is no god, agnosts think there is still a possibility.
 

DeletedUser

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And I'm an agnostic because I have no logical or scientific proof that there is or there is no god and hence when someone proves me right or wrong about this issue I'll remain agnostic.
 

donovanrules12345

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proven evolution many many times over
You really gotta update yourself on evolution. There has been hundreds of very recent (in the last 3 years) discoveries that have lead big holes in the theory of evolution.
Small things such as, a bat being more related to a cow than a cow being related to a horse. All to do with the DNA, etc.

I just find funny how someone says "it's logic" and then believes in something that hasn't been logically proved
Logic doesn't require proof bud.

1. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation:
2. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
3. reason or sound judgment

On a side note if you do study biology you'll understand evolution and reproduction
I'm currently doing my biology assignment on infertility :) Gunna get up to 4000 words. Booyeah :icon_cool:
 

donovanrules12345

Guest
Evidence for design?

The best evidence for design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. The process of discovery continues, since one of the fundamental properties of the universe, dark energy (or the cosmological constant), was discovered late in the last century. New studies continue to add to our knowledge about the universe and its extremely unlikely makeup.

The Big Bang

The Big Bang theory states that the universe arose from a singularity of virtually no size, which gave rise to the dimensions of space and time, in addition to all matter and energy. At the beginning of the Big Bang, the four fundamental forces began to separate from each other. Early in its history (10^-36 to 10^-32 seconds), the universe underwent a period of short, but dramatic, hyper-inflationary expansion. The cause of this inflation is unknown, but was required for life to be possible in the universe.

Excess quarks

Quarks and antiquarks combined to annihilate each other. Originally, it was expected that the ratio of quarks and antiquarks to be exactly equal to one, since neither would be expected to have been produced in preference to the other. If the ratio were exactly equal to one, the universe would have consisted solely of energy - not very conducive to the existence of life. However, recent research showed that the charge–parity violation could have resulted naturally given the three known masses of quark families.1 However, this just pushes fine tuning a level down to ask why quarks display the masses they have. Those masses must be fine tuned in order to achieve a universe that contains any matter at all.

Large, just right-sized universe

Even so, the universe is enormous compared to the size of our Solar System. Isn't the immense size of the universe evidence that humans are really insignificant, contradicting the idea that a God concerned with humanity created the universe? It turns out that the universe could not have been much smaller than it is in order for nuclear fusion to have occurred during the first 3 minutes after the Big Bang. Without this brief period of nucleosynthesis, the early universe would have consisted entirely of hydrogen.2 Likewise, the universe could not have been much larger than it is, or life would not have been possible. If the universe were just one part in 10^59 larger,3 the universe would have collapsed before life was possible. Since there are only 10^80 baryons in the universe, this means that an addition of just 10^21 baryons (about the mass of a grain of sand) would have made life impossible. The universe is exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.

Early evolution of the universe

Cosmologists assume that the universe could have evolved in any of a number of ways, and that the process is entirely random. Based upon this assumption, nearly all possible universes would consist solely of thermal radiation (no matter). Of the tiny subset of universes that would contain matter, a small subset would be similar to ours. A very small subset of those would have originated through inflationary conditions. Therefore, universes that are conducive to life "are almost always created by fluctuations into the[se] 'miraculous' states," according to atheist cosmologist Dr. L. Dyson.4

Just right laws of physics

The laws of physics must have values very close to those observed or the universe does not work "well enough" to support life. What happens when we vary the constants? The strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) has a value such that when the two hydrogen atoms fuse, 0.7% of the mass is converted into energy. If the value were 0.6% then a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. If the value were 0.8%, then fusion would happen so readily that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang. Other constants must be fine-tuned to an even more stringent degree. The cosmic microwave background varies by one part in 100,000. If this factor were slightly smaller, the universe would exist only as a collection of diffuse gas, since no stars or galaxies could ever form. If this factor were slightly larger, the universe would consist solely of large black holes. Likewise, the ratio of electrons to protons cannot vary by more than 1 part in 10^37 or else electromagnetic interactions would prevent chemical reactions. In addition, if the ratio of the electromagnetic force constant to the gravitational constant were greater by more than 1 part in 10^40, then electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing the formation of stars and galaxies. If the expansion rate of universe were 1 part in 10^55 less than what it is, then the universe would have already collapsed. The most recently discovered physical law, the cosmological constant or dark energy, is the closest to zero of all the physical constants. In fact, a change of only 1 part in 10^120 would completely negate the effect.

Universal probability bounds

"Unlikely things happen all the time." This is the mantra of the anti-design movement. However, there is an absolute physical limit for improbable events to happen in our universe. The universe contains only 10^80 baryons and has only been around for 13.7 billion years (10^18 sec). Since the smallest unit of time is Planck time (10^-45 sec),5 the lowest probability event that can ever happen in the history of the universe is:

10^80 x 10^18 x 10^45 =10^143

So, although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by chance, it would be virtually impossible that all of them would require such fine-tuning. Some physicists have indicated that any of a number of different physical laws would be compatible with our present universe. However, it is not just the current state of the universe that must be compatible with the physical laws. Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history.

God?

A common objection to the "God hypothesis" is the problem of how God came to be. If everything has a cause, why does God get an exception? The problem with such reasoning is that it assumes that time has always existed. In reality, time is a construct of this universe and began at the initiation of the Big Bang. A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang. The Bible makes these exact claims - that God has always existed and that God created time, along with the entire universe, being described as an expanding universe.Why can't the universe be uncaused? Of course, it is possible that the universe is uncaused. However, there is a tremendous amount of evidence that contradicts that idea. So, an atheist who claims to live by logic and evidence cannot arbitrarily assign eternity to a universe that is clearly temporal.

Conclusion

No, God has not left His name etched onto the surface of planets. However, there is abundant evidence that the universe was designed by super intelligent Agent, who purposed that the universe should exist and be capable of supporting advanced life. The design of the universe is just one line of evidence that God created the universe. The design of the earth and solar system is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth. In addition, human beings are remarkably different from every other animal on earth, suggesting a departure from naturalistic processes.



Although both Christianity and naturalism are logically consistent within their own spheres, they come to radically different conclusions.
Both worldviews are reasonably balanced, although naturalism must resort to extremely complex hypotheses to explain the origin of the universe and the origin of life.

The explanatory power and scope of Christianity and naturalism tend to lie in different areas. Naturalism's strength lies in its explanation of the history of the earth and how living organisms function on a physical basis. It has failed to adequately explain the origin of the universe, the origin of life on earth, and the development of human consciousness, altruism and morality. Christianity fails to explain the details involved in much of how the physical world works (although it was never intended to do so). However, much of this information was unavailable to naturalism until the last 50 years. Christianity does address the big questions of origins (the origin of the universe, the origin of life on earth, and the development of human consciousness, altruism and morality), which naturalism inadequately addresses.

As demonstrated above, Christianity provides some surprisingly accurate explanations of our physical world, even though it was written thousands of years before actual proof of those claims could be experimentally verified. In addition, it is historically accurate, and its prophecies go far beyond what would be expected by chance.

Scientific naturalism has always claimed to provide explanations that are verifiable and can be falsified experimentally. However, there has been a recent change in the explanations of those espousing the naturalism-only worldview. As atheists attempt to answer the "big questions," explanations have become more metaphysical and complicated in nature. Explanations such as the multiverse are probably not even falsifiable.

One of naturalism's big failures is in its ability to provide application to real life issues for human beings. Explanations of human romantic love and need for interpersonal relationships, our need to create beautiful works of art and music, and our desire to help others (altruism) seem to defy naturalistic explanation. Attempts to fit these realities into the Darwinian evolutionary box have failed miserably. Even the evil side of our natures seems extreme from an evolutionary standpoint. Christianity provides a far superior explanation for why we behave the way we do.

The largest problem for naturalism is a failure to provide for the existential needs of human beings. People have a need for meaning, a purpose for living, and a hope for the future. Naturalism provides for none of this. In fact, naturalism destroys the idea that humans have a purpose, and leaves individuals only with the prospect of aging, suffering and eventual death and non-existence. In addition, naturalism says that there is no hope for the human species, since we will be eventually destroyed by an asteroid collision, a nearby supernova event, global warming, or solar expansion. Even if we manage to escape from our solar system to another, the eventual collision of our galaxy with the much larger Andromeda galaxy will cause chaos throughout most of the galaxy.
After this time, we can expect that the accelerating expansion of the universe will eventually rip apart the entire universe into its elementary particles as the universe suffers permanent heat death - the end of all life. So much for the "hope" from naturalism. The human need for a spiritual connection causes even most naturalists to go into meditation, study Buddhism, etc. to attempt to fulfill this need.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
First part was a very interesting read.
It is true that we have a very specific universe. (although no proof of a very specific planet or a very specific religion)
It is not only an extra strength for religions it also the basics for quantummechanics. that there are billions and billions of universes, all with different startvalues.

one question though (mainly because english isn't my first language I have some problems fully understanding this text.): right sized universe, we have an expanding universe, so does the right size only matters at the very beginning or also later on.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Evidence for design?

The best evidence for design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. The process of discovery continues, since one of the fundamental properties of the universe, dark energy (or the cosmological constant), was discovered late in the last century. New studies continue to add to our knowledge about the universe and its extremely unlikely makeup.

Yes it does. Being extremely unlikely makeup is just how it is. If you want to say it was god and if that does make you happy that's fine for me. To me it was just an explosion.

The Big Bang

The Big Bang theory states that the universe arose from a singularity of virtually no size, which gave rise to the dimensions of space and time, in addition to all matter and energy. At the beginning of the Big Bang, the four fundamental forces began to separate from each other. Early in its history (10^-36 to 10^-32 seconds), the universe underwent a period of short, but dramatic, hyper-inflationary expansion. The cause of this inflation is unknown, but was required for life to be possible in the universe.

Yes that's it, and there are loads of evidence for the Big Bang Theory otherwise it wouldn't be generally accepted by the Scientific Community as it is today.

Excess quarks

Quarks and antiquarks combined to annihilate each other. Originally, it was expected that the ratio of quarks and antiquarks to be exactly equal to one, since neither would be expected to have been produced in preference to the other. If the ratio were exactly equal to one, the universe would have consisted solely of energy - not very conducive to the existence of life. However, recent research showed that the charge–parity violation could have resulted naturally given the three known masses of quark families.1 However, this just pushes fine tuning a level down to ask why quarks display the masses they have. Those masses must be fine tuned in order to achieve a universe that contains any matter at all.

So since there isn't a scientific reason yet on why quarks ratio aren't equal to antiquarks you claim that "God did it" ?

The reason why there is what there is it's mainly because of asymmetries otherwise if all elementary particles were symmetric then there would be no universe or anything since they would annihilate each other.

This disparity you're talking about is named as Baryogenesis and it's mostly related with baryons and antibaryons. That's one of the history holes you can't explain yet.

Large, just right-sized universe

Even so, the universe is enormous compared to the size of our Solar System. Isn't the immense size of the universe evidence that humans are really insignificant, contradicting the idea that a God concerned with humanity created the universe? It turns out that the universe could not have been much smaller than it is in order for nuclear fusion to have occurred during the first 3 minutes after the Big Bang. Without this brief period of nucleosynthesis, the early universe would have consisted entirely of hydrogen.2 Likewise, the universe could not have been much larger than it is, or life would not have been possible. If the universe were just one part in 10^59 larger,3 the universe would have collapsed before life was possible. Since there are only 10^80 baryons in the universe, this means that an addition of just 10^21 baryons (about the mass of a grain of sand) would have made life impossible. The universe is exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.

So basically since there is yet no explanation lets claim that "God did it". Yes because a few years ago Big Bang wasn't accepted by the Church, now what happens to come is that the Pope claimed that the Big Bang was God job. Once Galileu said that the Earth was the one moving around the Sun, the Church said it didn't, hundreds of years later they accepted it. My point is what Religion can't understand they claim to be God, Science keeps investigating, while Church habits tell them to say everything happens is God. I say that there is a logic and scientific explanation for everything, however I don't claim that we know everything, I say that there is still a lot to know and what we don't know we look forward and try to understand, while the Church close their eyes to new developments and say everything is God job.

Early evolution of the universe

Cosmologists assume that the universe could have evolved in any of a number of ways, and that the process is entirely random. Based upon this assumption, nearly all possible universes would consist solely of thermal radiation (no matter). Of the tiny subset of universes that would contain matter, a small subset would be similar to ours. A very small subset of those would have originated through inflationary conditions. Therefore, universes that are conducive to life "are almost always created by fluctuations into the[se] 'miraculous' states," according to atheist cosmologist Dr. L. Dyson.4

Just right laws of physics

The laws of physics must have values very close to those observed or the universe does not work "well enough" to support life. What happens when we vary the constants? The strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) has a value such that when the two hydrogen atoms fuse, 0.7% of the mass is converted into energy. If the value were 0.6% then a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. If the value were 0.8%, then fusion would happen so readily that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang. Other constants must be fine-tuned to an even more stringent degree. The cosmic microwave background varies by one part in 100,000. If this factor were slightly smaller, the universe would exist only as a collection of diffuse gas, since no stars or galaxies could ever form. If this factor were slightly larger, the universe would consist solely of large black holes. Likewise, the ratio of electrons to protons cannot vary by more than 1 part in 10^37 or else electromagnetic interactions would prevent chemical reactions. In addition, if the ratio of the electromagnetic force constant to the gravitational constant were greater by more than 1 part in 10^40, then electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing the formation of stars and galaxies. If the expansion rate of universe were 1 part in 10^55 less than what it is, then the universe would have already collapsed. The most recently discovered physical law, the cosmological constant or dark energy, is the closest to zero of all the physical constants. In fact, a change of only 1 part in 10^120 would completely negate the effect.

Universal probability bounds

"Unlikely things happen all the time." This is the mantra of the anti-design movement. However, there is an absolute physical limit for improbable events to happen in our universe. The universe contains only 10^80 baryons and has only been around for 13.7 billion years (10^18 sec). Since the smallest unit of time is Planck time (10^-45 sec),5 the lowest probability event that can ever happen in the history of the universe is:

10^80 x 10^18 x 10^45 =10^143

So, although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by chance, it would be virtually impossible that all of them would require such fine-tuning. Some physicists have indicated that any of a number of different physical laws would be compatible with our present universe. However, it is not just the current state of the universe that must be compatible with the physical laws. Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history.

Those are all the "loop-holes" that science hasn't explained yet. What about everything science explained?!

Observational evidence:

The earliest and most direct kinds of observational evidence are the Hubble-type expansion seen in the redshifts of galaxies, the detailed measurements of the cosmic microwave background, and the abundance of light elements (see Big Bang nucleosynthesis)[Google it if you don't know what it is]. These are sometimes called the three pillars of the big bang theory. Many other lines of evidence now support the picture, notably various properties of the large-scale structure of the cosmos which are predicted to occur due to gravitational growth of structure in the standard Big Bang theory.

Hubble's law and the expansion of space.

Observations of distant galaxies and quasars show that these objects are redshifted—the light emitted from them has been shifted to longer wavelengths. This can be seen by taking a frequency spectrum of an object and matching the spectroscopic pattern of emission lines or absorption lines corresponding to atoms of the chemical elements interacting with the light. These redshifts are uniformly isotropic, distributed evenly among the observed objects in all directions. If the redshift is interpreted as a Doppler shift, the recessional velocity of the object can be calculated. For some galaxies, it is possible to estimate distances via the cosmic distance ladder. When the recessional velocities are plotted against these distances, a linear relationship known as Hubble's law is observed:

v = H_0 D \,

where

v is the recessional velocity of the galaxy or other distant object
D is the comoving proper distance to the object and
H0 is Hubble's constant, measured to be 70.1 ± 1.3 km/s/Mpc by the WMAP probe.

Hubble's law has two possible explanations. Either we are at the center of an explosion of galaxies—which is untenable given the Copernican Principle—or the universe is uniformly expanding everywhere. This universal expansion was predicted from general relativity by Alexander Friedman in 1922 and Georges Lemaître in 1927, well before Hubble made his 1929 analysis and observations, and it remains the cornerstone of the Big Bang theory as developed by Friedmann, Lemaître, Robertson and Walker.

The theory requires the relation v = HD to hold at all times, where D is the proper distance, v = dD⁄dt, and v, H, and D all vary as the universe expands (hence we write H0 to denote the present-day Hubble "constant"). For distances much smaller than the size of the observable universe, the Hubble redshift can be thought of as the Doppler shift corresponding to the recession velocity v. However, the redshift is not a true Doppler shift, but rather the result of the expansion of the universe between the time the light was emitted and the time that it was detected.

That space is undergoing metric expansion is shown by direct observational evidence of the Cosmological Principle and the Copernican Principle, which together with Hubble's law have no other explanation. Astronomical redshifts are extremely isotropic and homogeneous, supporting the Cosmological Principle that the universe looks the same in all directions, along with much other evidence. If the redshifts were the result of an explosion from a center distant from us, they would not be so similar in different directions.

Measurements of the effects of the cosmic microwave background radiation on the dynamics of distant astrophysical systems in 2000 proved the Copernican Principle, that the Earth is not in a central position, on a cosmological scale.[notes 5] Radiation from the Big Bang was demonstrably warmer at earlier times throughout the universe. Uniform cooling of the cosmic microwave background over billions of years is explainable only if the universe is experiencing a metric expansion, and excludes the possibility that we are near the unique center of an explosion.


Cosmic microwave background radiation

During the first few days of the universe, the universe was in full thermal equilibrium, with photons being continually emitted and absorbed, giving the radiation a blackbody spectrum. As the universe expanded, it cooled to a temperature at which photons could no longer be created or destroyed. The temperature was still high enough for electrons and nuclei to remain unbound, however, and photons were constantly "reflected" from these free electrons through a process called Thomson scattering. Because of this repeated scattering, the early universe was opaque to light.

When the temperature fell to a few thousand Kelvin, electrons and nuclei began to combine to form atoms, a process known as recombination. Since photons scatter infrequently from neutral atoms, radiation decoupled from matter when nearly all the electrons had recombined, at the epoch of last scattering, 379,000 years after the Big Bang. These photons make up the CMB that is observed today, and the observed pattern of fluctuations in the CMB is a direct picture of the universe at this early epoch. The energy of photons was subsequently redshifted by the expansion of the universe, which preserved the blackbody spectrum but caused its temperature to fall, meaning that the photons now fall into the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The radiation is thought to be observable at every point in the universe, and comes from all directions with (almost) the same intensity.

In 1964, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson accidentally discovered the cosmic background radiation while conducting diagnostic observations using a new microwave receiver owned by Bell Laboratories. Their discovery provided substantial confirmation of the general CMB predictions—the radiation was found to be isotropic and consistent with a blackbody spectrum of about 3 K—and it pitched the balance of opinion in favor of the Big Bang hypothesis. Penzias and Wilson were awarded a Nobel Prize for their discovery.

In 1989, NASA launched the Cosmic Background Explorer satellite (COBE), and the initial findings, released in 1990, were consistent with the Big Bang's predictions regarding the CMB. COBE found a residual temperature of 2.726 K and in 1992 detected for the first time the fluctuations (anisotropies) in the CMB, at a level of about one part in 105. John C. Mather and George Smoot were awarded Nobels for their leadership in this work. During the following decade, CMB anisotropies were further investigated by a large number of ground-based and balloon experiments. In 2000–2001, several experiments, most notably BOOMERanG, found the universe to be almost spatially flat by measuring the typical angular size (the size on the sky) of the anisotropies. (See shape of the universe.)

In early 2003, the first results of the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy satellite (WMAP) were released, yielding what were at the time the most accurate values for some of the cosmological parameters. This satellite also disproved several specific cosmic inflation models, but the results were consistent with the inflation theory in general, it confirms too that a sea of cosmic neutrinos permeates the universe, a clear evidence that the first stars took more than a half-billion years to create a cosmic fog. Another satellite like it, scheduled for launch in April 2009, the Planck Surveyor, will provide even more accurate measurements of the CMB anisotropies. Many other ground- and balloon-based experiments are also currently running; see Cosmic microwave background experiments.

The background radiation is exceptionally smooth, which presented a problem in that conventional expansion would mean that photons coming from opposite directions in the sky were coming from regions that had never been in contact with each other. The leading explanation for this far reaching equilibrium is that the universe had a brief period of rapid exponential expansion, called inflation. This would have the effect of driving apart regions that had been in equilibrium, so that all the observable universe was from the same equilibrated region.


Abundance of primordial elements

Using the Big Bang model it is possible to calculate the concentration of helium-4, helium-3, deuterium and lithium-7 in the universe as ratios to the amount of ordinary hydrogen, H. All the abundances depend on a single parameter, the ratio of photons to baryons, which itself can be calculated independently from the detailed structure of CMB fluctuations. The ratios predicted (by mass, not by number) are about 0.25 for 4He/H, about 10−3 for ²H/H, about 10−4 for ³He/H and about 10−9 for 7Li/H.

The measured abundances all agree at least roughly with those predicted from a single value of the baryon-to-photon ratio. The agreement is excellent for deuterium, close but formally discrepant for 4He, and a factor of two off for 7Li; in the latter two cases there are substantial systematic uncertainties. Nonetheless, the general consistency with abundances predicted by BBN is strong evidence for the Big Bang, as the theory is the only known explanation for the relative abundances of light elements, and it is virtually impossible to "tune" the Big Bang to produce much more or less than 20–30% helium. Indeed there is no obvious reason outside of the Big Bang that, for example, the young universe (i.e., before star formation, as determined by studying matter supposedly free of stellar nucleosynthesis products) should have more helium than deuterium or more deuterium than ³He, and in constant ratios, too.

Galactic evolution and distribution

Detailed observations of the morphology and distribution of galaxies and quasars provide strong evidence for the Big Bang. A combination of observations and theory suggest that the first quasars and galaxies formed about a billion years after the Big Bang, and since then larger structures have been forming, such as galaxy clusters and superclusters. Populations of stars have been aging and evolving, so that distant galaxies (which are observed as they were in the early universe) appear very different from nearby galaxies (observed in a more recent state). Moreover, galaxies that formed relatively recently appear markedly different from galaxies formed at similar distances but shortly after the Big Bang. These observations are strong arguments against the steady-state model. Observations of star formation, galaxy and quasar distributions and larger structures agree well with Big Bang simulations of the formation of structure in the universe and are helping to complete details of the theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence


Now to your "God" argument.

God?

A common objection to the "God hypothesis" is the problem of how God came to be. If everything has a cause, why does God get an exception? The problem with such reasoning is that it assumes that time has always existed. In reality, time is a construct of this universe and began at the initiation of the Big Bang. A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang. The Bible makes these exact claims - that God has always existed and that God created time, along with the entire universe, being described as an expanding universe.Why can't the universe be uncaused? Of course, it is possible that the universe is uncaused. However, there is a tremendous amount of evidence that contradicts that idea. So, an atheist who claims to live by logic and evidence cannot arbitrarily assign eternity to a universe that is clearly temporal.

Yes indeed if you think that way. If you think of a line. You have the first and the last point. What is before the first point. Nothing exactly. Same analogy can be used for the universe. See the universe as a line and you can use the argument you did, where time and space were created with the big bang. However think of the Universe as a circle and you'll see a cycle where there is no beginning and no end where there were always space and time.

Yes I do believe the universe is uncaused. On a side note assuming that there is a cause will lead you to the problem of induction. And for further note that leaves you in a very tight position mainly logical. First you're supposing the existence of a "God" when you have no proof. And by proof I mean something that you can see, touch, test. Then you're generalizing for every happening that what did happen had a cause and that "God" was the cause. So basically we enter on the philosophical problem called "Existence of God". Basically what happens?

In favor of the existence of God people claim that there was a "first cause". Other arguments are also "University Complexity" and let me tell you complexity is all over the world and I seriously don't understand why it should be related to God. The "mind-body problem" where God defenders claim to be better understood by believing in God.

Just some deductive arguments against God existence, something that in favor arguments don't have and by this I mean deduction.


- The Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit is a counter-argument to the argument from design. The argument from design claims that a complex or ordered structure must be designed. However, a god that is responsible for the creation of a universe would be at least as complicated as the universe that it creates. Therefore, it too must require a designer. And its designer would require a designer also, ad infinitum. The argument for the existence of god is then a logical fallacy with or without the use of special pleading. The Ultimate 747 gambit points out that God does not provide an origin of complexity, it simply assumes that complexity always existed. It also states that design fails to account for complexity, which natural selection can explain.

- The omnipotence paradox suggests that the concept of an omnipotent entity is logically contradictory, from considering a question like: "Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?" or "If God is all powerful, could God create a being more powerful than itself?".

- Another argument suggests that there is a contradiction between God being omniscient and omnipotent, basically asking "how can an all-knowing being change its mind?" See the article on omniscience for details.

- The problem of hell is that some consider the existence of Hell in several religions to be morally indefensible, or inconsistent with God's omnibenevolence or omnipresence. [To be honest this argument isn't that strong since you must assume there is hell and to me there is no hell or heaven.]

- The argument from free will contests the existence of an omniscient god who has free will - or has allotted the same freedom to his creations - by arguing that the two properties are contradictory. According to the argument, if God already knows the future, then humanity is destined to corroborate with his knowledge of the future and not have true free will to deviate from it. Therefore our free will contradicts an omniscient god. Another argument attacks the existence of an omniscient god who has free will directly in arguing that the will of God himself would be bound to follow whatever God foreknows himself doing in eternity future.

- The Transcendental argument for the non-existence of God contests the existence of an intelligent creator by suggesting that such a being would make logic and morality contingent, which is incompatible with the presuppositionalist assertion that they are necessary, and contradicts the efficacy of science. A more general line of argument based on this argument seeks to generalize this argument to all necessary features of the universe and all god-concepts.

- The counter-argument against the Cosmological argument ("chicken or the egg") takes its assumption that things cannot exist without creators and applies it to God, setting up an infinite regress. This attacks the premise that the universe is the second cause (after God, who is claimed to be the first cause).

- Theological noncognitivism, as used in literature, usually seeks to disprove the god-concept by showing that it is unverifiable by scientific tests. [Which I've stated earlier in this post]

Not a deductive but inductive argument which I believe also to be good is:

The "no reason" argument tries to show that an omnipotent and omniscient being would not have any reason to act in any way, specifically by creating the universe, because it would have no needs, wants, or desires since these very concepts are subjectively human. As the universe exists, there is a contradiction, and therefore, an omnipotent god cannot exist.

Empirical Reasons:

Empirical arguments

Empirical arguments depend on empirical data in order to prove their conclusions.

* The argument from inconsistent revelations contests the existence of the deity called God as described in scriptures — such as the Jewish Tanakh, the Christian Bible, or the Muslim Qur'an — by identifying apparent contradictions between different scriptures, within a single scripture, or between scripture and known facts. To be effective this argument requires the other side to hold that its scriptural record is inerrant, or to conflate the record itself with the God it describes.

* The problem of evil contests the existence of a god who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent by arguing that such a god should not permit the existence of evil or suffering. The theist responses are called theodicies.

* The argument from poor design contests the idea that God created life on the basis that life-forms, including humans, seem to exhibit poor design.

* The argument from nonbelief contests the existence of an omnipotent God who wants humans to believe in him by arguing that such a god would do a better job of gathering believers.

* The argument from parsimony contends that since natural (non-supernatural) theories adequately explain the development of religion and belief in gods,[23] the actual existence of such supernatural agents is superfluous and may be dismissed unless otherwise proven to be required to explain the phenomenon.

* It is argued that belief in God does not help make accurate predictions of future events in the real world, so Occam's Razor may be applied to eliminate this unnecessary hypothesis.

* The analogy of Russell's teapot argues that the burden of proof for the existence of God lies with the theist rather than the atheist.


Conclusion

No, God has not left His name etched onto the surface of planets. However, there is abundant evidence that the universe was designed by super intelligent Agent, who purposed that the universe should exist and be capable of supporting advanced life. The design of the universe is just one line of evidence that God created the universe. The design of the earth and solar system is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth. In addition, human beings are remarkably different from every other animal on earth, suggesting a departure from naturalistic processes.

The design? Is that the evidence you have from God? The design of my new car is awesome, god did my car and it's awesome design that's why I believe in God.

Humans are being remarkably different from every other animal on earth. Natural Selection and Darwinian Evolution explain that.


Conclusion:

To me this discussion is futile and this post had one purpose, to show you that your beliefs have no logical or deductive explanation. I don't really care about this question because at the end of the day it's up to each one to decide if they do or do not believe in god. I prefer to stick with things that I can prove logically, test, touch, see, etc. Others prefer to believe in something they don't see, they never had a proof of, etc.

To me the deductive arguments against God Existence are more than enough to prove that God does not exist, I don't really ask myself "What's my purpose on Earth?", " What am I supposed to do?" etc...

And honestly I don't fear death, hell or anything. How was it before living? The same way to me it will be after dying.

Now related to the Big Bang, I strongly agree with this theory mainly because I've been studying science since I remember and it makes sense and is a theory that actually has enough proof. What hasn't been explained so far, will be explained. That's how it works, you have a problem you develop a theory and test it. If it verifies then you've solved your problem other than that you keep trying.

To me what Theism does is to attack Science non-discoveries the problem is that Theism is getting less and less to criticize and that has made several religion leaders to change their view towards Science.

On a side note I've changed my view from agnostic to Apatheism.

Now the disclaimer.


DISCLAIMER:

- I do not hold any grudge towards anyone.
- This is my personal view on this matter, respect it.
- If you don't like it, well I don't care.
- Don't ask questions before reading twice.
- If you want to criticize go ahead, you can criticize my personal opinion but it won't change, you can criticize facts but like I've learned "You can't argue facts"
- Definitions of all words I believe to be important will be posted below.
- Definitions of all terms used above will be posted below.
- Definitions of scientific words/terms will also be posted below.
- All websites will be posted below.
- Scientific Information posted has been tested and so is considered as scientific truth.
- Be open minded while reading my post.
- Being closed-minded won't help you at all, knowledge isn't about liking or not is about understanding other's opinions and to acknowledge them. You may not like what I'm saying but acknowledge my opinion and I'm sure you'll learn something.


Definitions:


Scientific:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Features.2C_issues_and_problems
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryogenesis


"God":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#Definition_of_God.27s_existence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#Arguments_for_the_existence_of_God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#Arguments_against_the_existence_of_God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic


Words definitions:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proof
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/empirical

That's all.
 

DeletedUser67942

Guest
I'm in a kind of period of uncertainty myself so I'll align with agnostic. I've never seen anything to give me proof that God does or does not exist, but there are reasons for why it could be either way.

In the end, it all comes down to faith. There's no need to get into arguments about it because you won't be able to make someone think one thing or nother, especially over some forum based on a game.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'm in a kind of period of uncertainty myself so I'll align with agnostic. I've never seen anything to give me proof that God does or does not exist, but there are reasons for why it could be either way.

In the end, it all comes down to faith. There's no need to get into arguments about it because you won't be able to make someone think one thing or nother, especially over some forum based on a game.

That's exactly what I pointed out in the end of my post. Whatever you say at the end of the day it all comes down to your personal opinion.
 

DeletedUser62440

Guest
Let's just say that I did not bother to read all that. And please no more copy/paste dono
 

DeletedUser

Guest
What have i created in this thread, and i have many conclusions, But i think there is many maybe millions of universes and out tiny little planet is just part of something alot bigger, compared to the size of just the milky way we are tiny, No1 knows where we are in the universe the top bottom is there really a top or a bottom, but in the end, the fort of god was an idea, an idea by man and it has not been proven that this thing exsists so therefore i am a agnost Sadist :)
 

donovanrules12345

Guest
Tiaco, what I don't understand is how you can tell people to be "open-minded" and yet you say you only think logically? Isn't that a narrow view in itself? People who believe in a greater existence, to beyond that of just plain logic and reason are DEFINITELY open-minded. So by saying that, aren't you being a hypocrite?
 

donovanrules12345

Guest
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. How could a Big Bang produce a rose, apple trees, fish, sunsets, the seasons, hummingbirds, polar bears—thousands of birds and animals, each with its own eyes, nose, and mouth? A child can see that there is "grand design" in creation.

Try this interesting experiment: Empty your garage of every piece of metal, wood, paint, rubber and plastic. Make sure there is nothing there. Nothing. Then wait for ten years and see if a Mercedes evolves. Try it. If it doesn’t appear, leave it for 20 years. If that doesn’t work, try it for 100 years. Then try leaving it for 10,000 years. Here’s what will produce the necessary blind faith to make the evolutionary process believable: leave it for 250 million years.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"New scientific revelations about supernovas, black holes, quarks,


A concession speech may be unlikely in 2005, but the progressive decline of one of the twentieth century’s most popular theories now seems inescapable. The Big Bang has lost its theoretical foundation, which was the Doppler interpretation of redshift (linking redshift to the stretching of light wavelengths as objects move away from us). It is now known that, while almost all observed galaxies are redshifted, the Doppler interpretation of this shift does not provide a reliable measure of velocity or (indirectly) of distance. Quasars and galaxies of different redshift stand in physical proximity to each other and are observed to be connected by filaments of matter. Quasars, whose high redshift would place them at the outer edges of the visible universe, are in fact physically and energetically linked to nearby low-redshift active galaxies.

The Big Bang was dismantled by direct observation—including a highly redshifted quasar in front of a nearby galaxy!

In the rise and fall of the Big Bang hypothesis no name looms with greater distinction than that of Halton Arp, the leading authority on peculiar galaxies. Over decades, Arp amassed meticulous observations challenging the standard use of redshift to prove an expanding universe. But astronomers ignored or dismissed Arp’s work, insisting that his conclusions were either erroneous or impossible. Arp lost his teaching position. Then he lost his telescope time and had to move to Germany to carry on his work at the Max Planck Institute.

For established science the greatest embarrassment could come from public realization that, for decades, astronomers suppressed the warning signs. The critical challenge was raised years ago, as early as the 1960’s, when Arp began publishing his findings. To his credit, Cornell astronomer Carl Sagan acknowledged the problem when he was writing Cosmos (published in 1980). But in the following years the politically influential looked the other way, and the word quietly went out to science editors at major newspaper and news magazines that Arp had been fully answered and no more time was needed on the question.

Here is an interesting historical fact. For many years it has been known that the map of the universe acquires a bizarre appearance when you let redshift determine distances. Suddenly galactic clusters stretch out in radial lines absurdly pointing at the earth. The effect is called “the fingers of God,” and the earth-directed “fingers” span billions of light-years.

While big bang theorists have cobbled together “explanations” for small-scale examples of the effect, the picture as a whole can only be illusory. The galaxies are not, in fact, stretched out on radial lines from the earth in the way suggested by the “map”, but the invalid Doppler interpretation of redshift does create that ludicrous picture. Rationalizations of this effect have been a disservice to science. Theorists should have stopped to notice the obvious.

The failure of the Big Bang hypothesis could be the tipping point in the collapse of modern cosmology, with reverberations affecting all of the theoretical sciences. No domain of scientific inquiry stands in isolation. It is now known that intense electric discharge (such as coronal mass ejections from the Sun) can generate a redshift having no connection to relative velocities. But cosmologists developed their ideas about redshift and the Big Bang under the assumption of an electrically inert universe. Their theoretical starting point invariably shaped their thinking about the birth of galaxies. And these ideas, in turn, conditioned scientific reasoning as to how a galaxy’s constituent stars came into existence. Concepts of star formation further constrained scientific reasoning about planetary origins and the evolution of life. From the core of intertwined assumptions, the chains of logic reached out to inspire—but also to shackle—human exploration.

In this environment, cosmologists and astronomers were free to present the expanding universe and the orthodox age and size of the universe as facts. Alongside these “facts” have come a host of mathematical fictions: from dark matter and dark energy to the ever popular “black hole”. Though much of today’s exercises in esoteric mathematics came after publication of Sagan’s Cosmos, America’s favorite astronomer in the 1980’s had registered a timely warning: “If Arp is right, the exotic mechanisms proposed to explain the energy source of the distant quasars--supernova chain reactions, super-massive black holes and the like--would be unnecessary. Quasars need not then be very distant”.

Over the past quarter century the pure mathematicians, with little or no interest in experimental science and only a passing regard for direct observation, have indulged in a carnival of speculation. But it is mind altering to realize that almost nothing revealed by our more powerful telescopes was anticipated by these theorists. We now observe a superabundance of fine filaments across vast reaches of space. In the electrically neutral cosmos claimed by gravity-based cosmology, these filaments find no credible cause. But in plasma experiments with electric discharge, they are predictable. Nobel laureate Hannes Alfvén, the father of plasma physics, showed that cosmologists are mistaken when they imagine that magnetic fields can be “frozen in” to a plasma. Electric currents are required to sustain cosmic magnetic fields. And now, everywhere we look we see magnetic fields at work: electricity is flowing across immense distances in space. At both the stellar and galactic scales, these currents interact with the magnetic fields they induce to create complex structure—strings of galaxies, galactic and stellar jets, and beautiful bipolar stellar nebulas—all with features never envisioned by gravitational theorists, yet corresponding in stunning detail to plasma discharge formations in the laboratory.

Will the year 2005 see a new beginning for cosmology? When you consider the sheer momentum of earlier theory, together with the potential costs in terms of reputations, public funding, and threatened jobs, it would be foolish to expect the “tipping point” to mean a wholesale abandonment of the Big Bang in one year. Discredited theories rarely meet either an instantaneous or a quiet death. But we can confidently predict a year of rapidly growing controversy, on an issue whose final outcome is indeed certain.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/041227prediction-bigbang.htm

What have i created in this thread, and i have many conclusions, But i think there is many maybe millions of universes and out tiny little planet is just part of something alot bigger, compared to the size of just the milky way we are tiny, No1 knows where we are in the universe the top bottom is there really a top or a bottom, but in the end, the fort of god was an idea, an idea by man and it has not been proven that this thing exsists so therefore i am a agnost Sadist :)

I don't understand what gives you the impression that it was "made up" by a man? You are drawing the conclusion that Christianity is a religion, but it is not. You see, ALL religions have the view that it is them reaching up towards a "god" or a greater being. But in Christianity, we have the view that it is God reaching out towards the people - through his son Jesus.
There are hundreds of thousands of biblical artifacts which have been found over the last century. Over 300'000 artifacts i believe? All pointing to the fact that there was a man named Jesus 2000 years ago. Thousands of testimonies over the years, and finally materialistic evidence to prove it.
So tell me, were those people from 2000 years ago just cavemen who didn't know what they were seeing? Would they make up all this crap for no reason? Just try reading the bible for a day - it is more complicated than a friggen chinese cracker! No man on Earth could possibly spend a lifetime writing such a book. Just try and read it for once.

I'll tell you how I became a Christian. First, it was faith. Believing in something that may not really exist. But then I used logic, I asked myself while looking outside "could this all really be made by chance?", the answer was NO WAY! The fact that I chose Christianity is because of what I just said above, Christianity is the only belief where God reaches down towards the people, not the other way around.
To claim that you have studied for a billion years aint gonna cut it. I know at least 20 biology, chemistry, and physics teachers who are Christians. And they know alot more about the facts of life than I do! What you have to realize is that most scientific "Discoveries" are based on theory. Heck, even electrons, protons, and neutrons are based on theory!

The final and most important reason I believe in God, is because of one simple fact. "Ask and you shall receive". No, I don't mean billions of dollars or hot babes, I mean the simple things. Where I have been in need, or cried out for help - God was there. Without him I wouldn't be here today. I've suffered many diseases, from meningococcal meningitis to pneumonia, to being in a coma, to other things - I should be dead! If it wasn't for God's hand, touching upon my life, then I'd be 6 feet under.
That's all I'm gunna say. Notice that I didn't pull out any bible verses to justify what I believe? So far I've only used science, and the laws of physics. I could rant on about this for years, but I'd rather not. You can choose your own belief, as God has given you the right to do so. Enjoy your day.
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser

Guest
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. How could a Big Bang produce a rose, apple trees, fish, sunsets, the seasons, hummingbirds, polar bears—thousands of birds and animals, each with its own eyes, nose, and mouth? A child can see that there is "grand design" in creation.

Try this interesting experiment: Empty your garage of every piece of metal, wood, paint, rubber and plastic. Make sure there is nothing there. Nothing. Then wait for ten years and see if a Mercedes evolves. Try it. If it doesn’t appear, leave it for 20 years. If that doesn’t work, try it for 100 years. Then try leaving it for 10,000 years. Here’s what will produce the necessary blind faith to make the evolutionary process believable: leave it for 250 million years.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"New scientific revelations about supernovas, black holes, quarks,


A concession speech may be unlikely in 2005, but the progressive decline of one of the twentieth century’s most popular theories now seems inescapable. The Big Bang has lost its theoretical foundation, which was the Doppler interpretation of redshift (linking redshift to the stretching of light wavelengths as objects move away from us). It is now known that, while almost all observed galaxies are redshifted, the Doppler interpretation of this shift does not provide a reliable measure of velocity or (indirectly) of distance. Quasars and galaxies of different redshift stand in physical proximity to each other and are observed to be connected by filaments of matter. Quasars, whose high redshift would place them at the outer edges of the visible universe, are in fact physically and energetically linked to nearby low-redshift active galaxies.

The Big Bang was dismantled by direct observation—including a highly redshifted quasar in front of a nearby galaxy!

In the rise and fall of the Big Bang hypothesis no name looms with greater distinction than that of Halton Arp, the leading authority on peculiar galaxies. Over decades, Arp amassed meticulous observations challenging the standard use of redshift to prove an expanding universe. But astronomers ignored or dismissed Arp’s work, insisting that his conclusions were either erroneous or impossible. Arp lost his teaching position. Then he lost his telescope time and had to move to Germany to carry on his work at the Max Planck Institute.

For established science the greatest embarrassment could come from public realization that, for decades, astronomers suppressed the warning signs. The critical challenge was raised years ago, as early as the 1960’s, when Arp began publishing his findings. To his credit, Cornell astronomer Carl Sagan acknowledged the problem when he was writing Cosmos (published in 1980). But in the following years the politically influential looked the other way, and the word quietly went out to science editors at major newspaper and news magazines that Arp had been fully answered and no more time was needed on the question.

Here is an interesting historical fact. For many years it has been known that the map of the universe acquires a bizarre appearance when you let redshift determine distances. Suddenly galactic clusters stretch out in radial lines absurdly pointing at the earth. The effect is called “the fingers of God,” and the earth-directed “fingers” span billions of light-years.

While big bang theorists have cobbled together “explanations” for small-scale examples of the effect, the picture as a whole can only be illusory. The galaxies are not, in fact, stretched out on radial lines from the earth in the way suggested by the “map”, but the invalid Doppler interpretation of redshift does create that ludicrous picture. Rationalizations of this effect have been a disservice to science. Theorists should have stopped to notice the obvious.

The failure of the Big Bang hypothesis could be the tipping point in the collapse of modern cosmology, with reverberations affecting all of the theoretical sciences. No domain of scientific inquiry stands in isolation. It is now known that intense electric discharge (such as coronal mass ejections from the Sun) can generate a redshift having no connection to relative velocities. But cosmologists developed their ideas about redshift and the Big Bang under the assumption of an electrically inert universe. Their theoretical starting point invariably shaped their thinking about the birth of galaxies. And these ideas, in turn, conditioned scientific reasoning as to how a galaxy’s constituent stars came into existence. Concepts of star formation further constrained scientific reasoning about planetary origins and the evolution of life. From the core of intertwined assumptions, the chains of logic reached out to inspire—but also to shackle—human exploration.

In this environment, cosmologists and astronomers were free to present the expanding universe and the orthodox age and size of the universe as facts. Alongside these “facts” have come a host of mathematical fictions: from dark matter and dark energy to the ever popular “black hole”. Though much of today’s exercises in esoteric mathematics came after publication of Sagan’s Cosmos, America’s favorite astronomer in the 1980’s had registered a timely warning: “If Arp is right, the exotic mechanisms proposed to explain the energy source of the distant quasars--supernova chain reactions, super-massive black holes and the like--would be unnecessary. Quasars need not then be very distant”.

Over the past quarter century the pure mathematicians, with little or no interest in experimental science and only a passing regard for direct observation, have indulged in a carnival of speculation. But it is mind altering to realize that almost nothing revealed by our more powerful telescopes was anticipated by these theorists. We now observe a superabundance of fine filaments across vast reaches of space. In the electrically neutral cosmos claimed by gravity-based cosmology, these filaments find no credible cause. But in plasma experiments with electric discharge, they are predictable. Nobel laureate Hannes Alfvén, the father of plasma physics, showed that cosmologists are mistaken when they imagine that magnetic fields can be “frozen in” to a plasma. Electric currents are required to sustain cosmic magnetic fields. And now, everywhere we look we see magnetic fields at work: electricity is flowing across immense distances in space. At both the stellar and galactic scales, these currents interact with the magnetic fields they induce to create complex structure—strings of galaxies, galactic and stellar jets, and beautiful bipolar stellar nebulas—all with features never envisioned by gravitational theorists, yet corresponding in stunning detail to plasma discharge formations in the laboratory.

Will the year 2005 see a new beginning for cosmology? When you consider the sheer momentum of earlier theory, together with the potential costs in terms of reputations, public funding, and threatened jobs, it would be foolish to expect the “tipping point” to mean a wholesale abandonment of the Big Bang in one year. Discredited theories rarely meet either an instantaneous or a quiet death. But we can confidently predict a year of rapidly growing controversy, on an issue whose final outcome is indeed certain.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/041227prediction-bigbang.htm



I don't understand what gives you the impression that it was "made up" by a man? You are drawing the conclusion that Christianity is a religion, but it is not. You see, ALL religions have the view that it is them reaching up towards a "god" or a greater being. But in Christianity, we have the view that it is God reaching out towards the people - through his son Jesus.
There are hundreds of thousands of biblical artifacts which have been found over the last century. Over 300'000 artifacts i believe? All pointing to the fact that there was a man named Jesus 2000 years ago. Thousands of testimonies over the years, and finally materialistic evidence to prove it.
So tell me, were those people from 2000 years ago just cavemen who didn't know what they were seeing? Would they make up all this crap for no reason? Just try reading the bible for a day - it is more complicated than a friggen chinese cracker! No man on Earth could possibly spend a lifetime writing such a book. Just try and read it for once.

I'll tell you how I became a Christian. First, it was faith. Believing in something that may not really exist. But then I used logic, I asked myself while looking outside "could this all really be made by chance?", the answer was NO WAY! The fact that I chose Christianity is because of what I just said above, Christianity is the only belief where God reaches down towards the people, not the other way around.
To claim that you have studied for a billion years aint gonna cut it. I know at least 20 biology, chemistry, and physics teachers who are Christians. And they know alot more about the facts of life than I do! What you have to realize is that most scientific "Discoveries" are based on theory. Heck, even electrons, protons, and neutrons are based on theory!

The final and most important reason I believe in God, is because of one simple fact. "Ask and you shall receive". No, I don't mean billions of dollars or hot babes, I mean the simple things. Where I have been in need, or cried out for help - God was there. Without him I wouldn't be here today. I've suffered many diseases, from meningococcal meningitis to pneumonia, to being in a coma, to other things - I should be dead! If it wasn't for God's hand, touching upon my life, then I'd be 6 feet under.
That's all I'm gunna say. Notice that I didn't pull out any bible verses to justify what I believe? So far I've only used science, and the laws of physics. I could rant on about this for years, but I'd rather not. You can choose your own belief, as God has given you the right to do so. Enjoy your day.


I Agree on so many parts of that, but you tell me, if Jesus is really gods son then god must be a man, and apparently god created man now if god created his self then it would be awkward, i believe there is Satan, but i also believe, if there is a god he turned his back on our tiny world along time ago we was kicked out of the garden of Eden to say we can't be the only intelligent life in the universe and whose to stay we aren't the experiment of some higher life form, But as you say this can't all be a coincidence, But if it isn't where is god and where is heaven, because if there really was/is a god then wouldn't he have created other planets with life forms on and wouldn't they go to heaven, now you imagine that many life forms going to heaven, And yes maybe there was a man called Jesus 2009 years ago but hell how many people was called Jesus 2009 and nine years ago its like saying in 1000 years there was a famous guy called johnny, its impossible to tell if there was a Jesus no matter how many artefacts there is, But in the end no one and i mean no one can tell if there is a god or not, But if god really is all loving then he would love Satan his opposite, now if the bible is right Satan is an angel but if Satan is an angel and he created hell then where is hell, And yes Gammlen it does sound kinky, Meow P:
 

donovanrules12345

Guest
I Agree on so many parts of that, but you tell me, if Jesus is really gods son then god must be a man, and apparently god created man now if god created his self then it would be awkward, i believe there is Satan, but i also believe, if there is a god he turned his back on our tiny world along time ago we was kicked out of the garden of Eden to say we can't be the only intelligent life in the universe and whose to stay we aren't the experiment of some higher life form, But as you say this can't all be a coincidence, But if it isn't where is god and where is heaven, because if there really was/is a god then wouldn't he have created other planets with life forms on and wouldn't they go to heaven, now you imagine that many life forms going to heaven, And yes maybe there was a man called Jesus 2009 years ago but hell how many people was called Jesus 2009 and nine years ago its like saying in 1000 years there was a famous guy called johnny, its impossible to tell if there was a Jesus no matter how many artefacts there is, But in the end no one and i mean no one can tell if there is a god or not, But if god really is all loving then he would love Satan his opposite, now if the bible is right Satan is an angel but if Satan is an angel and he created hell then where is hell, And yes Gammlen it does sound kinky, Meow P:
Actually, you should go read just first part of the bible. Just so you can know more about it, it's not like I'm trying to convert you or anything.
But this is basically the story (I'm cutting out ALOT):
God created the Earth and the universe in 6 days, and on the 7th he rested. He then decided to create a man named Adam - as an image of himself. (btw, no one knows what God looks like). But then he decided to make a women named Eve. Adam and Eve both lived in the Garden of Eden - created by God. Notice that this paradise was on Earth. God told Adam not to eat from a specific tree, that was the ONLY rule God has made at the time. But, eventually Adam went and ate from the tree, so they were both kicked out of Eden. So then God created pain, suffering and all the wrong crap you see going on in the world today - because Adam had sinned.

Please, I stress that you just go and read the first chapter of the bible, it's very interesting to read. And if you get bored go and read the back of the bible - Revelations. It talks about the end of the world, really scary to read!

Also, the bible talks about no other life form. And so far, no life other life form has been discovered. So text written over 2000 years ago still proves through to even today!

Anywayz. Satan AT FIRST, an angel in heaven. He was the leader of the choir. He then became jealous of God and thought that he was stronger, so he and a third of all the angels in heaven, tried to overthrow God. But God being all powerful, threw out satan and all the traitors. God created hell as a place for satan - NOT FOR THE PEOPLE OF EARTH. Satan, who will be punished for eternity in hell - tries to get us as people to sin, so that he can get more and more people to join him in hell. But the simple fact is, if you follow and obey God, then when the 2nd coming of Jesus comes, you will be sent to heaven. And trust me, heaven is awesome!

So yeah....I know what you just read sounds like a big story and all. But just give it a go. As a Christian I've read thousands of scientific theory's and stuff, you can at least read the bible a bit to read up about what I believe ;)
 
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DeletedUser60182

Guest
Try to think of any explosion that has produced order. Does a terrorist bomb create harmony? Big bangs cause chaos. How could a Big Bang produce a rose, apple trees, fish, sunsets, the seasons, hummingbirds, polar bears—thousands of birds and animals, each with its own eyes, nose, and mouth? A child can see that there is "grand design" in creation.


I'll just comment on this small bit, I'm not going to waste my time reading a lot of copy/pasted 'big-up-god' text. Now, you sound like a smart guy so you probably know this yourself. In a very dumbed down explanation, the reason it creates roses, apple trees, fish etc. is purely because there was a certain %age probability that your examples would be created. Big bang -> energy/matter -> sub-atomic particles -> elements. From there, your different elements react in certain ways with each other, primarily due to the actions of electrons. With the right conditions essentially the apple is produced due to the interactions between every single element atom within it. The different properties of shape, and texture etc.

you see where I'm going with this?

Anyway, the only point I'll bring up here now is that too many people assume that we're pretty much at the end of the line in our discovery of everything around us. So much more evidence I do believe will come out that may not prove the in-existence of god, but will provide some sort of reason as to why they dont have a faith.
 
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