what sthe most fastest and efficent way to start building?

zarddeath200

Guest
At 300 pts having 140 lc as you say you must have built naff all of anything else, I'm sitting at 313 with a stable and two warehouse levels to go before I can research them.....:icon_eek:

Apart from the odd level of wall I've spent nothing on any buildings that weren't focussed towards getting my stable to lc level asap, with my farming targets here small and spread out lc is the obvious choice to speed up resource collection
I am an average player, I just hit 245 points on the world matt is talking about, and have LC research queued.
It is not that difficult at all, if you farm
 

mattcurr

Guest
How is population relevant at that point in the game? Farm levels are extremely fast and cheap. By the time you're getting to the point where you care about population you'll have had LC for a good while even if you took your time in getting them, so for the purposes of this discussion population space can effectively be ignored.
At this moment it isn't but servy taking out the population skews the equation more in my favor not yours :icon_eek:



The whole point here is that if one person had all spears and another person had all LC such that both of them had the same income from farming (meaning they both utilized them to at their maximum efficiency) the person who used spears would have paid 9% more resources. Another way to look at it is that if each player had the same number of resources to spend the income rate of the player using LC would be 9% greater.
But the farming power is not equal, if used to their fullest, your equation is incorrect there is a reason the unit's dont make sense on yours and in mine they do. Hint for math in life if the units don't work then you screwed up... Units at least in the maths I take are the most important thing

It seems that you're trying to argue that it's worth the sunk costs to have a higher income, which is a statement that isn't universally true. I have just shown you that, if fully utilized, LC are better farmers than spears. I fully admit this. What I am saying is that the difference is quite small, and that the costs of rushing to LC too quickly only improves your income marginally and as such there are better ways to utilize your resources. True, if you're just going to have those resources sitting around doing nothing then yes, it would be advantageous to "invest" them, so to speak, in improving your income through LC, but there are other things to "invest" in besides LC, and that is where your logic fails.
No what I am saying is that once you pay back for the unit, ie 6 farming runs your equations are thrown out the window, it is then about production value.

So do you not now see how the comparison doesn't apply? You focus on building LC, and as such you raise your stable level. Going out of your way to up the stable level makes the comparison void. If someone doesn't focus on LC and instead focuses on infantry they may very well upgrade the barracks a earlier than you.
Okay to equal farming power production of production of 1 lc vs 4 sp, you need a level 18 farm. I think that is enough said about that theory of yours :icon_eek:

Saying that LC are better because you use a build that is designed to augment a large LC production is obvious, just as spears will be better for a person who's build is designed to augment spear production. The question is whether LC with a LC build is better or worse than spears with a spear build. Note that this past paragraph can be applied generally to most any concept.
You cant build spears in numbers to compete with lc that is my point servy you will be overtaken and rather quickly.

Again, you're taking the limits of all of the equations in situations where it is not applicable. I'm only advocating for a difference for a finite (and relatively small) period of time, so making a comparison over extremely large periods of time (which is what you'd need to do to validate ignoring fixed costs) does not apply. Your statement is only valid if I were to make the assertion that spears are universally better than LC as farmers, which I have explicitly stated I've disagreed with (although there are certain situations in which it applies, such as for players who don't farm very actively, but that's not the prime topic of debate.). I have proved for you, in my own logic, that in the long term LC are better farms from a cost/benefit point of view, you don't need to tell me that.
But its my motion that in order to keep spears as effective as lc you need the same activity level, and thus in the long run, ie 5 days tops it is more effective to get lc.


Note how I said possibly getting a trade or two, meaning not something to rely on but something that happens on occasion and that you have the option of getting lucky, so to speak. Again, if you are looking at spear/axe farming on large and permanent scales, then you have some legs to stand on, but for short periods of time having a large difference in resource buildings balance it out some, and simply storing the excess iron will last you long enough, since 'long enough' isn't all that long.
Yes but I have not brought trades into this for a reason and that is it makes it more in favor on my side, I currently am running a level 9 market 24/7 with 2:1 ratio trades in fact "creating" res from nothing trading wood out for iron. Making my production not only easier but actually creating production.

You're making the false assumption that the scouts need to be sent along with every single farming run. Scouts are a lot faster than spears, and while it's nice to be able to send scouts on all farming runs, it's not something that you need to do, especially early on. Now, once you get more into the swing of things and are doing more large scale farming then yes, you'll be sending scouts with every farming run, but that's simply because the cost of the scouts is so small. Early on, when the cost of the scouts is enough for you to actually care, you can manage with less of them.
:icon_eek: If you need so little why not 0...

There are situations where they are needed less (sometimes a lot less) and there are situations where they are still quite important, especially early on. The fact that you can keep track of such things yourself is true, and goes back to my previous point that you won't need as many scouts as you claim you need for this exact reason; you can sometimes figure everything out yourself.
Its not quite hard, in fact I would give people my excel worksheet if they asked for it its merely 2 tables. Instead of teaching to waste res and time why not improve their methods....
The primary importance of scouts early on is in finding new farms. More effectively utilizing existing farms is helpful, at some times more than others, but it is still secondary.
Again beginners protection there are no "new" farms in my scenario's I have lc and scouts before exiting bp
Now you seem to be understanding the basic premise, yes, but you're still one step short of fully realizing the point.

You don't have to be at one step or the other, in fact you are almost certainly aren't at either. Most players are going to be somewhere in the middle. What the numbers show is that you need to be really, really high up on the activity scale for LC to be advantageous, and even then not by a large margin. If you are even slightly less than perfectly active in your farming then that difference starts to shrink. To be concrete, take your example but have a person that sends the troops out after 1 hour 10 minutes instead of exactly after one hour. Such a person would lose enough of the difference for spears and LC to have approximately the same efficiency. You need to think of it as a sliding scale.
This is a very specific incident that you did not even allude to in your initial post...
 

Muldie325

Guest
No what I am saying is that once you pay back for the unit, ie 6 farming runs your equations are thrown out the window, it is then about production value.
It is a production value before that too, and just because you've paid off your LC doesn't mean its going to be producing more. :/

Servys equations are fine, they show production per minute per unit of cost which remains unchanged.
 
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servy

Guest
At this moment it isn't but servy taking out the population skews the equation more in my favor not yours :icon_eek:
Yes, that is correct. I don't ignore points that don't support my inclusion; instead I look at all of the relevant points and combine them to find the proper end result rather than just taking the points that support the result that I would like to get. It's not exactly a good thing that this seems to be a foreign concept to you.

But the farming power is not equal, if used to their fullest, your equation is incorrect there is a reason the unit's dont make sense on yours and in mine they do. Hint for math in life if the units don't work then you screwed up... Units at least in the maths I take are the most important thing
What are you talking about here? You claim that mine is incorrect and that your is right without any support at all. Baseless claims mean nothing.

No what I am saying is that once you pay back for the unit, ie 6 farming runs your equations are thrown out the window, it is then about production value.
I know what you're saying. I'm saying that you're wrong. Having a higher production rate isn't universally better if there is a higher cost associated with having that higher production rate since you can simply have a greater number of what produces a lower production rate if it has a lower cost, thus cost matters.

Let's give a slightly simpler example to show that your point is invalid.

Bob is offering to pay you $1 a day for the rest of your life if you give him $500 right now. There is no limit on the number of times you can accept this offer.

Chris is offering to pay you $5 a day for the rest of your life if you give him $3,000 right now. There is no limit on the number of times you can accept this offer.

Assume that you have $3,000 that you are looking to invest.

By your logic you should ignore the costs and only look at the income rates that each offer gives you, and so you would accept Chris' offer.

By using my cost/benefit analysis logic I would invest all of my money into accepting 6 of Bob's offers, thus earning an extra dollar a day for the exact same amount of money spent.

Okay to equal farming power production of production of 1 lc vs 4 sp, you need a level 18 farm. I think that is enough said about that theory of yours :icon_eek:
What are you on about. Your statement seems to have nothing to do with what you've quoted, and I fail to see what a level 18 farm has to do with any of this...

You cant build spears in numbers to compete with lc that is my point servy you will be overtaken and rather quickly.
You can't read my [entire] post before replying, so you can't compete with me. I'd rather not repeat the post you're quoting so I'll just leave this one for now.

But its my motion that in order to keep spears as effective as lc you need the same activity level,
And yet I've shown how spears are more effective with a lower activity level and not less effective, so your motion (Did you mean notion?) seems to be incorrect.
and thus in the long run, ie 5 days tops it is more effective to get lc.
For someone who's quite active, I could accept that. I wouldn't say tops, as there are some exceptions that come to mind even for someone more active, and there's the fact that someone less active may want to push it out even further still, but not by all that much more.

Yes but I have not brought trades into this for a reason and that is it makes it more in favor on my side, I currently am running a level 9 market 24/7 with 2:1 ratio trades in fact "creating" res from nothing trading wood out for iron. Making my production not only easier but actually creating production.
And in a day or two when other people catch up and start building LC the opposite situation arises where everyone is starved for iron. If you wait a bit on LC production then you're going to have a stash of iron at this point, either for your own use or to trade at high ratios.

:icon_eek: If you need so little why not 0...
Because the benefits of scouts are not directly related to the number of scouts that you have. I can't believe I even need to be saying this. Having just a very small handful of scouts is practically vital for building up an effective farming practice, but you really don't need that many to do it. There are two beginner mistakes when it comes to scouts; the worst is delaying overly long in getting them, and the other is producing way more than you need, especially early on. Having enough scouts for 2-3 runs makes feeling for new farms cheap, quick, reasonably safe, and quite effective. Having none makes feeling for new farms fairly unsafe and as a consequence more expensive and slower. Having an excess of scouts simply adds very little from where you are in the first case.

Its not quite hard, in fact I would give people my excel worksheet if they asked for it its merely 2 tables. Instead of teaching to waste res and time why not improve their methods....
Again, you're not reading my post before replying. This even deserves another *facepalm*.
Again beginners protection there are no "new" farms in my scenario's I have lc and scouts before exiting bp
You're the one trying to tell me that you don't need to research scouts, and yet you're saying you have them (which of course is no surprise). I fail to see the relevance of this.

This is a very specific incident that you did not even allude to in your initial post...
So then post it if you want. There are an infinite number of possible instances, many of which could support either argument. Trying to sound cool or mysterious by alluding to something like this without saying anything about what it is just makes you look like you've got nothing and can't admit it.
 

mattcurr

Guest
Yes, that is correct. I don't ignore points that don't support my inclusion; instead I look at all of the relevant points and combine them to find the proper end result rather than just taking the points that support the result that I would like to get. It's not exactly a good thing that this seems to be a foreign concept to you.
Yeah but you used it as a basis for my equation being wrong, which sure at the bp stage it is wrong but overall it is correct. Lc are more effective your equation has spears as more effective, how can it possibly be correct?


I know what you're saying. I'm saying that you're wrong. Having a higher production rate isn't universally better if there is a higher cost associated with having that higher production rate since you can simply have a greater number of what produces a lower production rate if it has a lower cost, thus cost matters.

Let's give a slightly simpler example to show that your point is invalid.

Bob is offering to pay you $1 a day for the rest of your life if you give him $500 right now. There is no limit on the number of times you can accept this offer.

Chris is offering to pay you $5 a day for the rest of your life if you give him $3,000 right now. There is no limit on the number of times you can accept this offer.

Assume that you have $3,000 that you are looking to invest.

By your logic you should ignore the costs and only look at the income rates that each offer gives you, and so you would accept Chris' offer.

By using my cost/benefit analysis logic I would invest all of my money into accepting 6 of Bob's offers, thus earning an extra dollar a day for the exact same amount of money spent.
This situation is too linear to encompass the reasoning that lc is better than spears for farming, which is what you are begining to argue to follow this logic you would never need lc because spears can keep up with them in terms of farming which is a false statement. We all know that with 1000 lc I can support a village's ques 100% how many spears do you think you need to do that? Thats the real measurement.

What are you on about. Your statement seems to have nothing to do with what you've quoted, and I fail to see what a level 18 farm has to do with any of this...
Yeah I meant to say barracks, you need a level 18 barracks to produce spears in the numbers necessary to keep up with a level 3 creating lc.

And yet I've shown how spears are more effective with a lower activity level and not less effective, so your motion (Did you mean notion?) seems to be incorrect.
Yeah in the one situation of a person who has a lower activity level coupled with them being on and off, but is that hardly the norm that it would make more sense than someone who plays 2 hours strait or 3 hours strait. Where they would again get more runs in with the lc than they would the spears?

And in a day or two when other people catch up and start building LC the opposite situation arises where everyone is starved for iron. If you wait a bit on LC production then you're going to have a stash of iron at this point, either for your own use or to trade at high ratios.
Can't say I have ever run into that. Except much further down the line when resources no longer matter

Because the benefits of scouts are not directly related to the number of scouts that you have. I can't believe I even need to be saying this. Having just a very small handful of scouts is practically vital for building up an effective farming practice, but you really don't need that many to do it. There are two beginner mistakes when it comes to scouts; the worst is delaying overly long in getting them, and the other is producing way more than you need, especially early on. Having enough scouts for 2-3 runs makes feeling for new farms cheap, quick, reasonably safe, and quite effective. Having none makes feeling for new farms fairly unsafe and as a consequence more expensive and slower. Having an excess of scouts simply adds very little from where you are in the first case.
The only instance I have though out this said you dont need to get scouts is in bp again you are not looking for new farms, because there are none...

You're the one trying to tell me that you don't need to research scouts, and yet you're saying you have them (which of course is no surprise). I fail to see the relevance of this.
No what I said was there are instances where you go for lc first because you are still in beginners protection and dont need scouts as you can see in my first response to the idea you placed out.

So then post it if you want. There are an infinite number of possible instances, many of which could support either argument. Trying to sound cool or mysterious by alluding to something like this without saying anything about what it is just makes you look like you've got nothing and can't admit it.
No what I am saying is that you had not mentioned that situation until your most recent post I was speaking in the second person, what does it have to do with me. And you were expecting me to have assumed this rare situation as the norm.
 
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kiwikid

Guest
The major flaw with your argument is the assumption that all of the troops are gone for the same amount of time, and they aren't. Different troops are returning at different times since all of the villages aren't an equal distance away.
Option 1. You log on, you have 75-100% of your farming troops sitting in your village ready to deploy again

Option 2. You log on, all your troops are still out from the last deployment

Which one would you pick?

You also see people spiking villages with spears as well, which will decimate your attacking LC.
a) How well are your spears going to cope?

b) All my examples have been, as stated from a new player playing early, I usually get a pally to do the rounds with lc to clear any remnants

See the difference is I see and understand your guys arguments, but I know what works for me, you don't seem to get that

I am an average player, I just hit 245 points on the world matt is talking about, and have LC research queued.
It is not that difficult at all, if you farm
No farming has nothing to do with it, you don't generate points by farming you generate by building your village. My comments were simply a reflection of obviously differing building styles and possible different world settings.....
 

Muldie325

Guest
Yeah but you used it as a basis for my equation being wrong, which sure at the bp stage it is wrong but overall it is correct. Lc are more effective your equation has spears as more effective, how can it possibly be correct?



This situation is too linear to encompass the reasoning that lc is better than spears for farming, which is what you are begining to argue to follow this logic you would never need lc because spears can keep up with them in terms of farming which is a false statement. We all know that with 1000 lc I can support a village's ques 100% how many spears do you think you need to do that? Thats the real measurement.
Firstly his equation shows LC as 9% mroe effective so you're wrong there.

5800 spears ish. Of course the production time would take longer, but what about in the beginning like when deciding whether or not to build lc.. where this actually applies. You wont have enough income to keep queues full 24/7 yet so build time is somewhat irrelevant.
 

pkiwarrior

Guest
Its threads like these that make my head hurt.

Now I've never seen any of you do start-up (except muldie) but when you've got a player like matt who is consitently top 20, 10 maybe 5(?) then the way I see it is that you can argue about if spears or LC are more efficient all day long if you want but obviously his method is working for him.

Then again, I've never really cared enough to do calculations like this for myself... I guess thats why I probably won't ever be a top starter :icon_redface:
 

servy

Guest
Yeah but you used it as a basis for my equation being wrong, which sure at the bp stage it is wrong but overall it is correct. Lc are more effective your equation has spears as more effective, how can it possibly be correct?
Really...how many times am I going to have to tell you to actually read my posts:
(edited to omit context)
spears: 0.01543
LC: 0.01684

Comparing the numbers shows LC as being 9.1% more effective at farming than spears with both at a maximum potential.
This situation is too linear to encompass the reasoning that lc is better than spears for farming, which is what you are begining to argue to follow this logic you would never need lc because spears can keep up with them in terms of farming which is a false statement. We all know that with 1000 lc I can support a village's ques 100% how many spears do you think you need to do that? Thats the real measurement.
Well, since you've asked, 5760 spears will have the same resource income assuming they are both utilized equally. Less spears will suffice if you assume a lower utilization.

You will have spent 475,000 in resources on the LC and 518,400 in resources on the spears. (Note that it's approximately 9% more for spears than LC.)
Yeah I meant to say barracks, you need a level 18 barracks to produce spears in the numbers necessary to keep up with a level 3 creating lc.
And yet since this is so early on and on such a small scale that level of production isn't needed since you aren't going to be supporting it with your resource income at that point.

Yeah in the one situation of a person who has a lower activity level coupled with them being on and off, but is that hardly the norm that it would make more sense than someone who plays 2 hours strait or 3 hours strait.
That situation is the norm though. It's less common for players to be farming for 2 or 3 hours straight and not at all the rest of the day.
Where they would again get more runs in with the lc than they would the spears?
They may get more runs in, but they wouldn't get 1.8x more runs in which is what they would need to do in order to meet the assertion in my equation.

The only instance I have though out this said you dont need to get scouts is in bp again you are not looking for new farms, because there are none...


No what I said was there are instances where you go for lc first because you are still in beginners protection and dont need scouts as you can see in my first response to the idea you placed out.
Given that I don't LC rush I won't have a stable as early as you will because, yes, scouts aren't worth that much in BP. Usually I'll try to time it to have scouts 1.5-ish days before the end of BP

No what I am saying is that you had not mentioned that situation until your most recent post I was speaking in the second person, what does it have to do with me. And you were expecting me to have assumed this rare situation as the norm.
Still can't figure out what you're trying to say here.
 

servy

Guest
Option 1. You log on, you have 75-100% of your farming troops sitting in your village ready to deploy again

Option 2. You log on, all your troops are still out from the last deployment

Which one would you pick?
That's what I'm trying to say; it won't be a decision between those two.
a) How well are your spears going to cope?
With a few axes, better than LC will.
 

kiwikid

Guest
That's what I'm trying to say; it won't be a decision between those two
See, we are getting somewhere :icon_biggrin: I'm not arguing with all the other positives and negatives that have been rattled through here, I 'm saying in my case, the way I play that is the choice

With a few axes, better than LC will.
Absolutely true :) but not the point, early on I ain't building axes I'm building farming troops because

a) I need resources as much as possible as soon as possible

b) I'm on the rim, sure a top player may turn up here but 99.9% of them are players that don't know squat. True

Also, and this is something I haven't mentioned but is specific to my case, cos I moved from another village to control my 'space' fom the offset I have a pally with the Lance so the off of my lc is somewhat better than normal....... :icon_rolleyes:
 

pyker42

Guest
Now I've never seen any of you do start-up (except muldie) but when you've got a player like matt who is consitently top 20, 10 maybe 5(?) then the way I see it is that you can argue about if spears or LC are more efficient all day long if you want but obviously his method is working for him.
I will readily admit that I've never been in the top 100 before, let alone top 20. But, on three worlds I've built accounts from the ground up to the 700k+ range, and only ever been rimmed once, from my very first village in this game. Obviously, my methods work for me as well.

Then again, I've never really cared enough to do calculations like this for myself... I guess thats why I probably won't ever be a top starter :icon_redface:
qft

I play this game for fun, not to be consistently ranked high in every world I play. I really don't care how high my ranking is. Just as long as I'm enjoying the game. :lol:
 

zarddeath200

Guest
I will readily admit that I've never been in the top 100 before, let alone top 20. But, on three worlds I've built accounts from the ground up to the 700k+ range, and only ever been rimmed once, from my very first village in this game. Obviously, my methods work for me as well.



qft

I play this game for fun, not to be consistently ranked high in every world I play. I really don't care how high my ranking is. Just as long as I'm enjoying the game. :lol:
I don't really do calcs myself, and I am currently ahead of nauz+coplayer in a certain unnamed world, though I think it might just be the coplayer...
 

servy

Guest
See, we are getting somewhere :icon_biggrin: I'm not arguing with all the other positives and negatives that have been rattled through here, I 'm saying in my case, the way I play that is the choice
Which isn't relevant to any of the rest of us, so there is no need to post it.

Absolutely true :) but not the point, early on I ain't building axes I'm building farming troops because

a) I need resources as much as possible as soon as possible

b) I'm on the rim, sure a top player may turn up here but 99.9% of them are players that don't know squat. True

Also, and this is something I haven't mentioned but is specific to my case, cos I moved from another village to control my 'space' fom the offset I have a pally with the Lance so the off of my lc is somewhat better than normal....... :icon_rolleyes:
Again, this is very specific to just you and so doesn't apply to the context of the conversation.
 

mattcurr

Guest
Really...how many times am I going to have to tell you to actually read my posts:
(edited to omit context)



Well, since you've asked, 5760 spears will have the same resource income assuming they are both utilized equally. Less spears will suffice if you assume a lower utilization.

You will have spent 475,000 in resources on the LC and 518,400 in resources on the spears. (Note that it's approximately 9% more for spears than LC.)
And yet since this is so early on and on such a small scale that level of production isn't needed since you aren't going to be supporting it with your resource income at that point.

That situation is the norm though. It's less common for players to be farming for 2 or 3 hours straight and not at all the rest of the day. They may get more runs in, but they wouldn't get 1.8x more runs in which is what they would need to do in order to meet the assertion in my equation.


Given that I don't LC rush I won't have a stable as early as you will because, yes, scouts aren't worth that much in BP. Usually I'll try to time it to have scouts 1.5-ish days before the end of BP


Still can't figure out what you're trying to say here.
I would agree that in this very limited and specific term spears can be nearly as effective, but the fact that it is only nearly as effective, and that later on the lc will become more valuable, I would never in good conscious tell someone to avoid them, since they will pay off and then pay in larger dividends eventually.
 

servy

Guest
I wouldn't tell someone to avoid them entirely, no. Really it's more that I'm opposed to the very popularized concept of LC rushing with this dogma that LC are so superior at farming that it's worth getting to them as soon as possible. That is simply not true. As I have shown, they are better at farming, yes, but not by a very large margin even under the best of circumstances. You should use LC for your primary farming units once you are already in the position that getting to LC is of a negligible cost, but not before then.
 

Irishmetal

Guest
One thing that's not been completely integrated into the argument is the actual problem of spears and axe building in the same place.

Never mind clearing your noble target.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but (as long as you play it decently) isn't it better to get LC farming as well as possible so you can start churning axes for the violence to come?
 

zarddeath200

Guest
Option 1. You log on, you have 75-100% of your farming troops sitting in your village ready to deploy again

Option 2. You log on, all your troops are still out from the last deployment

Which one would you pick?



a) How well are your spears going to cope?

b) All my examples have been, as stated from a new player playing early, I usually get a pally to do the rounds with lc to clear any remnants

See the difference is I see and understand your guys arguments, but I know what works for me, you don't seem to get that



No farming has nothing to do with it, you don't generate points by farming you generate by building your village. My comments were simply a reflection of obviously differing building styles and possible different world settings.....
at the last part:
To build buildings, you need resources. To get resources, you can do one of two things: build up your pits or farm. Farming, even from day one gives double or more the production that pits do. That lets you build buildings faster, which lets you gain points faster. It also lets you farm faster, and grow faster indirectly.
 

zarddeath200

Guest
INTENTIONAL DOUBLE

One thing that's not been completely integrated into the argument is the actual problem of spears and axe building in the same place.

Never mind clearing your noble target.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but (as long as you play it decently) isn't it better to get LC farming as well as possible so you can start churning axes for the violence to come?
I woudl say that is a very good point.