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  1. #1
    capibarbaroja's Avatar
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    Default The true Ram guide

    Short introduction; For almost one year I have been hardly working with decoding and coding the simulator algorithm, both for archer and non archer(classic) worlds (check my signature for more info).

    Though, when I was working with the rams vs wall formulas I ended stuck, even with what seemed as a great thread by Cheesasaurus.
    So, for all other people, being interested in getting the most out of your nukes(or defenses), or just knowing how some of the game mechanics works, here goes the true formulas:

    Rams - A clooser look on how they work


    Training time (in seconds) = 3200/[world speed] * 1.06^(-[workshop level])
    Bonus Wall
    You might know that rams lower the wall, but did you know that they also negate the bonus your wall give to your troops while fighting?

    At the beginning of the battle if your have level 20 wall, it will double the defense of your troops.(Giving a 2.07(207%) bonus)

    This bonus can be calculated with following formula(the enemy having 0 rams for the moment):

    Formula 1
    bonus = 1.037^[Wall]
    Note: Why 1.037? I have no idea :P

    But this bonus can be negligated if the attacker have rams.
    Actually what happens is that the [Wall] level will be "downgraded", and out of this level, the bonus, as in the formula above, will be calculated. But the level to which the wall is downgraded is not the downgraded level at the end of the simulation. We will call this level(to which the wall is downgraded) the bonus_wall level:

    Formula 2
    max = [Attacking_rams] * [Attacking points of 1 ram at level 1] * [Attackers_Religion]/(8 * 1.09^[Wall])
    Note: Why 1.09 and 8? No idea neither :P

    Note for Religion: If the troops have beliefe, the religion is 1, if not it is 0.5. If world doesn't support church, religion is 1.

    Note for attacking points of ram: Can either be 2(without ram paladin item) or 4(with ram paladin item)

    Formula 3
    bonus_wall = [Wall]-Round[max])
    So now we can write the Formula 1 yielding for Rams attacking too:

    Formula 4
    bonus = 1.037^[bonus_wall]
    Example:
    Attacker: 1000 axes, 100 Rams || Defender: 500 spears, level 15 Wall
    Both with beliefe.

    max = 100 * 2 * 1/(8 * 1,09^15) = 6.863451033
    bonus_wall = 15-7 = 8
    bonus = 1.037^8 = 1.33730372
    Now there is an important remark to do. The bonus_wall can not be smaller than the half of the wall level(or the forth in case of ram item). So;

    Formula 5
    min = Round(1/2(or 1/4) * [wall])
    and;
    If bonus_wall < min then bonus_wall = min)
    Example:
    Attacker: 1000 axes, 300 Rams, 1 Paladin|| Defender: 500 spears, level 19 Wall
    Both with beliefe. Paladin with ram item.

    max = 300 * 4 * 1/(8 * 1,09^19) = 29.17345048
    bonus_wall = 19-29 = -10
    min = Round(1/4*19) = 5
    bonus_wall < min , so --> bonus_wall = 5
    bonus = 1.037^5 = 1.19920597
    Wall downgrade

    Now, how many levels your wall is downgraded to in the end of the battle depends if the defender win or looses:

    If Attacker wins:

    Formula 6:
    downgraded_level = [wall] - Round(max * (2 - Ratio))
    Where Ratio = attacking_units dead/ attacking_units total for archer worlds and Ratio = (deffense points/ attack points)^1.5 for non archer worlds.

    If Defender wins:

    Formula 7:
    downgraded_level = [wall] - Round(max * Ratio)
    Where Ratio = defending_units dead/ defending_units total for archer worlds and Ratio = (attack points/ defense points)^1.5 for non archer worlds.

    Now, how to find out the minimum of rams to use, and why the number 213 rams is floting around will soon be explained too, when I continue writing the guide.

    As for now, I hope it was interesting;

    -capi
    Last edited by capibarbaroja : 2010,July 22nd at 17:44

  2. #2

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    This is an excellent guide. While I have been through Cheesasaurus's guide on several occasions, I could never get the formulas to give the correct results. This guide is much more structured and easily understandable. I don't understand how this thread can stay uncommented for an entire month.

    Just one thing that puzzles me, on both guides. Why do you write the construction time as:

    Training time (in seconds) = 4800/[world speed] * 2/3 * 1.06^(-[workshop level])
    As you didn't write it as: Training time (in seconds) = 3200/[world speed] * 1.06^(-[workshop level])

    I assume there is some meaning behind the values 4800 and 2/3. Where exactly do have those from?

  3. #3
    guyverone's Avatar
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    Default

    I wonder if this is calculated with the new ram item or the old one, because the new one has the ram damage the walls in the first phase of the attack >.> That would effect how much damage is taken I think because I remember someone telling me that the infantry/calvary hit first and then the rams but i don't know i r noob.

  4. #4
    Niko.'s Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hIghQue View Post
    [...] I don't understand how this thread can stay uncommented for an entire month. [...]
    I just wanna second that ^^^ .
    ... and, that I cannot wait next part of this guide (but @capi knows this actually ).

  5. #5

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    I find it a nice bit of info into how the rams work however it is far from giving any true answers into how many rams are needed in game.
    Thats the main problem with anything to do with guides on siege troops more so with rams than cats but both have so many answers that can be correct.

  6. #6

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    Still waiting on the second part Capi.

  7. #7
    capibarbaroja's Avatar
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    Default

    More than five year have passed, but just dropped back out of curiosity. Looks like Tribalwars has been upgraded, and potentially the battle system changed, so wondering if this would still be if any interest, but anyways, the minimum amount of rams to send can easily be derived as follows:
    Without the paladin item the max damage you can do to the bonus_wall is lowering it by 10 levels(due to the minimum cap set as 20/2). Hence you would want the amount of rams that would reduce the wall level as exactly as possible by 10 levels only. Reverse Formula 2:
    [Attacking_rams] = max /( [Attacking points of 1 ram at level 1] * [Attackers_Religion]) * (8 * 1.09^[Wall])
    Plug in 2 for [Attacking points of 1 ram at level 1], 1 for [Attackers_Religion](or 0.5 if you are in a world with religion and you don't have a church), 10 for max and 20 for wall to get:
    10 /(2 * 1) * (8 * 1.09^20) = 224.1764
    So if you wanted to make sure to get those 10 levels down you would send 225 rams, but if getting it 9.9921 is good enough you would send 224. So not too sure where the 213 came from, perhaps that was for world with technologies?

    Of course if your main goal is to lower the wall level at the end of the battle it might not be a bad idea to send more rams, but considering that the village you are attacking might be heavily defended, and that your main goal(specially at later stages in the game) is just to kill as many defenders as possible, you might want to rather use your limited population on units with more attack points(after all, a ram is 2 units of attack for 5 units of population...). Remember that by killing as many enemy troops as possible, (or having as few die if you win), you also heavily affect the downgrade wall level after the battle.

    Final note, if your enemy has a lower wall level you would obviously need fewer rams, here is the quick calculation:
    Wall level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rams 0 5 6 12 13 21 22 32 35 48 52 68 74 94 102 128 139 170 186 225

    Again, this assumes belief(or no church world) and no paladin item.

    Hope this might still be useful to someone!

    -capi

  8. #8

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    Nah the ram part of the battle system hasn't changed

    213 instead of 225 because of rounding:

    9.5/(2*1)*(8*Math.pow(1.09,20))
    212.96760917557532

    Lowering it 9.5 levels is lowering it 10 in the eyes of the game.

    It is 213 for lowering the wall bonus for sure, testing in the simulator will confirm this:

    1000 axe has same attack as 20000 rams... so the below have same infantry attack, only difference is rams:







    So 20213 rams don't lower the wall bonus pre-battle any more than 213. If more than 213 rams had an effect pre-battle, losses for the defender would be higher for the second sim.

    [14:19:29] gargareth: idk forum is always full of intelligent people thinking things through properly, it'll be fine

  9. #9

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    Here is a pretty good link for people who want visual results without looking at formulas. The wall level reduction talked about above that comes into effect before the battle is independent of attacker and defender troops and only depends on attacker's ram numbers. It can at most lower half of the wall levels rounded down. e.g. 20>10, 19>10, 11>6, 10>5. The link also shows tables for catapults and rams damage to walls. https://forum.tribalwars.us/showthre...and-Ram-Charts

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