[THE TV] Decision on Hammerin'

Gicusan

Guest
1 villa was lost by Parmenion to be soon lost by Decide to MF. Parm has a very small cluster and could not afford to stack in time when a short ranged attack occurred. A birdie just told me that the Decide player that holds it at the moment just defended 5-7 nukes at 3-5 lvl wall in there.
 

tangotemptress

Guest
1 villa was lost by Parmenion to be soon lost by Decide to MF. Parm has a very small cluster and could not afford to stack in time when a short ranged attack occurred. A birdie just told me that the Decide player that holds it at the moment just defended 5-7 nukes at 3-5 lvl wall in there.

I think we know the same birdie :lol:

...but as for the lost village that CC was referring to... it was a THE member and it was lost to Hammer, but it was recapped by the THE member anyway, so all is good :)
 

cececole

Guest
Because I have declared war on DECIDE personally alongside THE. DECIDE failed to address a diplomatic issue that I brought to them resulting in a breach of my Rules of Engagement which is an act of war. And so as an individual I am joining THE in a war against DECIDE.



So, the other BD players attacking DECIDE and nobling villas.... Will we be receiving individual declarations from them one by one? Is there a certain threshold of number of attacks sent before they need to make their personal declaration? It must just be pure coincidence that they are attacking a select few of our players.

OR at some point will BD actually admit to be at war with DECIDE? How many members of BD attacking (co-incidently starting at about the same time as THE attacks) does it take until someone gets around to making it a declaration? But, wait--I bet you didn't know the others in BD were attacking? OR Maybe they just each have a personal grudge OR They are all independent spirits and free to shoot their nukes as the spirit moves them OR You will just accuse DECIDE of whining? (I'm betting you take the last option.) Hey, not whining, just asking.
 

Gicusan

Guest
So, the other BD players attacking DECIDE and nobling villas.... Will we be receiving individual declarations from them one by one? Is there a certain threshold of number of attacks sent before they need to make their personal declaration? It must just be pure coincidence that they are attacking a select few of our players.

OR at some point will BD actually admit to be at war with DECIDE? How many members of BD attacking (co-incidently starting at about the same time as THE attacks) does it take until someone gets around to making it a declaration? But, wait--I bet you didn't know the others in BD were attacking? OR Maybe they just each have a personal grudge OR They are all independent spirits and free to shoot their nukes as the spirit moves them OR You will just accuse DECIDE of whining? (I'm betting you take the last option.) Hey, not whining, just asking.

1. All the players involved from BD side are attacking Decide for 1-3 months. Nothing new. If they coordinate with someone else, that is no surprise and I doubt any decent player would refuse such an opportunity.

2. It is our place to declare war on you... or not. We consider this an expansion of the local players and we don't care to declare a war. Something like that means all tribe concentrates there. Not only we do not wish it as we have other fish to fry as well at the moment (like Draco and 888 and some others) but I certainly do not understand why do you wish for something like that. See about your wars and stop bothering with ours. If you do not like things, you are welcome to jump around, go fishing, poke your dog, drink a bottle of champagne and/or declare war yourself.
 

DeletedUser92

Guest
Cece,

One thing I've never understood - Tribes allow others to sit back and peck at them. If you feel Decide is at war with you, but hasn't declared it...Why wait for them to do so? Take the bull by the horns. I don't mean for this to be some kind of anti-BD remark, but if you feel like others think Decide is gonna be whining, and if you yourself feel like you're being wronged, stop sitting back and taking it.

Unless you like that kinda thing!
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Since GREEN disbanded i guess that means DECIDE only has one war to fight vs THE and of course yours truly but I aint exactly a tribe. Just a real pissed off guy with a vengeance a ridiculous amount of firepower.

Lets play. :icon_evil:

Its not the size of your firepower.

Its how you use it.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Cececole i've mentioned this to you before. Our players are free to expand as they see fit. They will coordinate with their neighbours if they feel like it and they shall simply progress in the direction they want (there are of course a couple rules to prevent two of our players bumping in to each other, but that's internal stuff). This is simply natural expansion in our view.

A war is when the entire tribe diverts resources to a given front, including prestacking villas, sending longrange O and possibly nobles and resources to help the guys on the frontlines expand quickly. If you feel that we are warring you and want to make a declaration, pls do. It won't change anything for BD. We don't consider Decide a priority, just food. If you guys could pose a viable threat to our players there we might consider declaring, but i haven't seen any reports to indicate that there is such a possibility even. Basically: if you want us to declare then start organising as a tribe on our players near you and do some damage :icon_wink: Right now THE is confirming everything our local players have said for a while now.

@faceminewrath: nice reasoning and posts :) Amidst the garbage it was good to read them. A couple points i'd like to react to:
This is all argument about GREEN's statements/actions, not DECIDE's, which is not my point. I can say for sure that DECIDE never had any intention of taking in much more than the small number of players from GREEN than they have.

If you are here to defend decide then imo you should also address the points raised. The arguments from both sides are tied together and they are reacting to eachother. I find it hypocrite to call out THE for making unsubstantiated claims but then merrily allow your allies to do just that. Both tribes should substantiate their claims or just drop them. THE already apologised i read, i'm waiting for DECIDE to do the same in order to recapture a shred of decency.

Now the following is a personal opinion but i'm thoroughly disgusted at DECIDE taking in the two GREEN dukes. Players leaving their tribe for a better one i don't mind. However, you simply do not disband the tribe you're leaving just because you don't think it's worth to be there any more. And as a duke you should never leave the tribe without prior warning and trying to ensure that the good members of the tribe have a heads up so they can also look for a new place.

Is it within the rules? Yup, no doubt about it.
However, by accepting the position of duke you are also accepting responsibility for the faith of the tribe and those within it. I've mentioned before that i like to stick to my agreements. This is the choice i make ingame. It's not mandatory, but it's simply a way for me to ensure that others can have fun as well. The choice those two dukes made and the choice decide made to take them in and thereby endorse their behaviour to me is about as low as it gets. I've seen [DN] posters point out that using spies is no problem and logical to them but that lying about it is what loses respect. I'm very curious to hear from [DN] posters if they find it normal for a tribe to take in two dukes who disband their tribe without discussing it with them and without ensuring a good warm home for the active/loyal players?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
So, the other BD players attacking DECIDE and nobling villas.... Will we be receiving individual declarations from them one by one? Is there a certain threshold of number of attacks sent before they need to make their personal declaration? It must just be pure coincidence that they are attacking a select few of our players.

OR at some point will BD actually admit to be at war with DECIDE? How many members of BD attacking (co-incidently starting at about the same time as THE attacks) does it take until someone gets around to making it a declaration? But, wait--I bet you didn't know the others in BD were attacking? OR Maybe they just each have a personal grudge OR They are all independent spirits and free to shoot their nukes as the spirit moves them OR You will just accuse DECIDE of whining? (I'm betting you take the last option.) Hey, not whining, just asking.

I've been moving in this direction for quite some time. THE can declare or sit on their arses...it won't change me at all.

My rules (of engagement) are much simpler when compared to Parmenion -- I will attack anyone with the exception of allies and my own tribe, at my discretion -- without warning.

Simply put, my existence is an act of war.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Frankly, its impossible to prove some things. How do I prove that certain players weren't spies? There's no paper trail because neither of us approached one another. So, there's no evidence to prove there were no THE spies in Green...But does that mean we had 'em?

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." I believe that's a Doctor House quote. Furthermore, while we are voicing a hypothetical situation, we believe via Occam's Razor that our theory of the situation works. Therefore, we present it as tentative fact, or at least one plausible case - just as a prosecution attorney would do.

More to the point, I'll answer Cece's commentary in the appropriate thread. Well, what parts of it I haven't already addressed.

Occam's razor says to take the simplest of the explanations available... so why do you insist on believing that there was an elaborate plot involving not one but two DECIDE plants in GREEN, who joined weeks before the war started, worked their way up into leadership positions without giving any hint of their real intent, and managed to disband the tribe?

Or alternatively, you could believe that GREEN were losing a war, possibly had internal issues, and so the Duke pressed the disband button?

You tell me which is simpler, which requires less leaps of faith to believe, and which is backed up by all the facts that are currently available. You say that the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, and I say in return - 'innocent until proven guilty'.

@faceminewrath: nice reasoning and posts :) Amidst the garbage it was good to read them. A couple points i'd like to react to:


If you are here to defend decide then imo you should also address the points raised. The arguments from both sides are tied together and they are reacting to eachother. I find it hypocrite to call out THE for making unsubstantiated claims but then merrily allow your allies to do just that. Both tribes should substantiate their claims or just drop them. THE already apologised i read, i'm waiting for DECIDE to do the same in order to recapture a shred of decency.

I don't find it hypocritical, as I'm not making those unsubstantiated claims. I'm not convinced that there were THE spies in GREEN, which is why I'm not arguing that point for DECIDE.

Now the following is a personal opinion but i'm thoroughly disgusted at DECIDE taking in the two GREEN dukes. Players leaving their tribe for a better one i don't mind. However, you simply do not disband the tribe you're leaving just because you don't think it's worth to be there any more. And as a duke you should never leave the tribe without prior warning and trying to ensure that the good members of the tribe have a heads up so they can also look for a new place.

Is it within the rules? Yup, no doubt about it.
However, by accepting the position of duke you are also accepting responsibility for the faith of the tribe and those within it. I've mentioned before that i like to stick to my agreements. This is the choice i make ingame. It's not mandatory, but it's simply a way for me to ensure that others can have fun as well. The choice those two dukes made and the choice decide made to take them in and thereby endorse their behaviour to me is about as low as it gets. I've seen [DN] posters point out that using spies is no problem and logical to them but that lying about it is what loses respect. I'm very curious to hear from [DN] posters if they find it normal for a tribe to take in two dukes who disband their tribe without discussing it with them and without ensuring a good warm home for the active/loyal players?

I disagree with some of this. About it being low by the GREEN dukes to just up and leave, I don't dispute. About it being a bad idea for DECIDE to take them in, I do.

Do you think that the GREEN dukes would have agreed to disband the tribe if they would then just have been tribeless? I guess that part of the terms of disbandment would have been that rcarlson and gardezbien were invited to DECIDE, and if that was the condition on which DECIDE could remove or reduce the GREEN threat, to deal with the new or potential new ones, then from DECIDE's point of view then the decision is strategically very good. DECIDE's decision wasn't about endorsing their behaviour. As I said before, GREEN's leadership were given ample time to sort something for their members.
 

Gicusan

Guest
Only problem I see from Decide part and up to a limit for DN as well, is they accept to work with this kind of people and probably talked about the disbandment a lot. You sleep with the horses, you smell like the horses.
 

the pink panther

Guest
Side 1:
Tribes: THE BD
Players:

Side 2:
Tribes: Hammer DECIDE
Players:

Timeframe: Last week

Total conquers against opposite side:

Side 1: 117
Side 2: 2
Difference: 115

image.php


Points value of total conquers against opposite side:

Side 1: 1,107,770
Side 2: 21,334
Difference: 1,086,436

image.php


looking good boys and gals
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I don't find it hypocritical, as I'm not making those unsubstantiated claims. I'm not convinced that there were THE spies in GREEN, which is why I'm not arguing that point for DECIDE.

It is hypocritical because you have no problem pointing out the fault in THE's behaviour but you don't comment on your ally doing the same thing. I agree that allies shouldn't be to hard on each other on the PnP, after all you are working together. But in a discussion where both sides are throwing accusations around without backing them up it's relevant to either comment both sides or none at all.

THE/BD might be good allies, but we have commented on each others members and PnP behaviour on numerous occasions. It's a matter of honesty.

I disagree with some of this. About it being low by the GREEN dukes to just up and leave, I don't dispute. About it being a bad idea for DECIDE to take them in, I do.

Do you think that the GREEN dukes would have agreed to disband the tribe if they would then just have been tribeless? I guess that part of the terms of disbandment would have been that rcarlson and gardezbien were invited to DECIDE, and if that was the condition on which DECIDE could remove or reduce the GREEN threat, to deal with the new or potential new ones, then from DECIDE's point of view then the decision is strategically very good. DECIDE's decision wasn't about endorsing their behaviour. As I said before, GREEN's leadership were given ample time to sort something for their members.

No i don't think they would have. But no they didn't give their members ample warning nor the leadership from what we learn in the other thread. We've seen multiple GREEN members ask them for an explanation. So unless i hear a decent explanation backed up with proof i'm under the assumption that they disbanded GREEN out of one of two reasons:
1. part of a deal with DECIDE
2. because they're small minded players who care only for themselves and have a way to big ego

Note that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Now for decide to take them in they are basically saying they don't mind what they did. They haven't made them apologise for the action of disbanding the tribe when they left and not one of them spoke out against it (nor one of you btw). Given we already established that what gardezbien and rcarlson did is a low blow ... what picture does that paint of decide? That of opportunists who don't care how they get a victory or an advantage, as long as they get it.

I should also point out that they did this after accusing THE of being cowards because they were at war with GREEN. This is after we got information from the former dukes of GREEN that 90% of that tribe was inactive. Let's assume they exaggerated and it's closer to 50%... does it make a difference? They apparently need a strategic advantage so bad that they are willing and able to endorse such a low blow to be able to fight a tribe that's declared on two top 5 tribes at once (#5 and #4).
 

DeletedUser

Guest
1 villa was lost by Parmenion to be soon lost by Decide to MF. Parm has a very small cluster and could not afford to stack in time when a short ranged attack occurred. A birdie just told me that the Decide player that holds it at the moment just defended 5-7 nukes at 3-5 lvl wall in there.


HEY!!! Rather be spoken too, not about. :lol:

(And I don't mean the birdie bit.)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Ah hell, I really can't help myself, can I? You know, I originally came back to give JP some props for an amusing declaration, and found myself reading some of whats been posted lately, and I simply cannot hold my tongue any longer.

So here's the truth.

It all began before this world was even created. We had planned to create a premade and knew exactly where we would start. But we also foresaw enemy tribes possibly rising all around us, so we directed a group of elite, intelligent players to all join at certain times, to begin at certain points around the world. These were our sleeper cells. Their purpose: to infiltrate tribes around the world and to work their way into a trusted position, to influence those tribes in our favor.

Six months ago, I had an epiphany, I realized that the newly founded Green would be the kind of tribe that would rise to power, and would pose a threat to Decide. So when the tribe was instated, I ordered our two eastern agents, Gardez and rcarlson to join. You see, even back then, I knew Dancing Bear would go MIA in time for our war six months later, and through a series of manipulations, that not only would one of my agents reach a "trusted" position in the tribe, but that both would become actual Dukes! The plan? To wait until Decide would be attacked by THE and BD to suddenly drop Green, leaving it helpless in an effort to scramble back together!

It would have been a success if not for those THE guys, and their stupid dog!

But this is not over! Oh no, our agents are everywhere! So consider this ladies and gentlemen: my genius is such that I orchastrated this Green fiasco half a year ago, imagine what I could also have put into effect!

Tremble! Tremble before my awesomeness!!!

Bwahahahahahaha!!!

(Hint: I am being sarcastic, utilizing satire to demonstrate how ridiculous this accusation of THE and BD's is. For this to have been possible, Decide would have had to do exactly as I described above, which is downright ludicrous. For those interested in knowing the truth as I know it, read the spoil.)

[spoil]For those interested, Gardez contacted Decide with terms of surrender, claiming Green had gone largely inactive and had a lot of sat accounts, and that they did not feel confident that they could stand up to Decide's military for much longer. Decide did not trust her at first, but figured it would not likely be a ruse if the tribe was disbanded, so after some consideration (and asking my opinion, which is how I knew any of this to begin with), they agreed to take in the members Green's leadership said were active. They did not agree to any method of Green's disbanding, and knew nothing about it.

It was not Decide's responsibility to disband Green, it was Green's leadership, and as far as I can tell, they should not be held in ill account for disbanding, but rather, in their methods of doing so. It is the responsibility of the tribe to make executive decisions like that, as well as the right. The only thing they can be held accountable for is how it was done. I will say that if what I have seen is true, that Green did not properly inform its tribe in advance, then that is deplorable, but I have no way of knowing, and truly don't care.

Now, THE/BD can blame Decide for having those players in her, but to me, all of THE/BD's efforts to find blame anywhere they can with Decide simply looks desperate. But hey, that's just me. Now I know you are going to say, but Decide did it too! And yes, they did, but you guys are the top dog! Seriously, you gotta set an example here!

So you people of the PnP can choose to believe the conspiracy theory, or you can choose to believe that Decide and inactivity were the downfall of Green, that's your choice. Personally, I agree with Wrath, Occam's Razor denotes the latter, but whatever the case, this is the truth as I know it.

I have to give props to THE, as I wrote, you guys play this game the way it should be played. 80% skill, 20% dirt, and 100% conviction and tenacity. Your use of spies is nothing to be ashamed of (c'mon guys, you were caught fair and square, even Gicu can admit guilt when being caught about the using in game message crap), as I fully condone the use of them (and if the above story is to be believed, apparently I condone the use of sleeper cells as well! :lol:). But I will state now for the record that Decide still has what it takes to win, as long as they respond in kind.

Now, the question isn't whether I can stand up to the torrential reaction this post will have (hell, Dung Fu proved that :icon_biggrin:), its whether I can keep myself from giggling when I read what you guys will have to say, or if I can even be arsed to check it, which is more than likely going to be the case. So this may be your chance guys, respond to this and you may actually get a last word on Atraeus! Lol!

Nevertheless, my thanks to THE for giving me a reason to taste PnP's succulent propaganda one more time. Ahhh! Damn... I really enjoy this game waaaaaay too much!)[/spoil]
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
I lol'd a bit too, at this :)

For those interested, Gardez contacted Decide with terms of surrender, claiming Green had gone largely inactive and had a lot of sat accounts, and that they did not feel confident that they could stand up to Decide's military for much longer. Decide did not trust her at first, but figured it would not likely be a ruse if the tribe was disbanded, so after some consideration (and asking my opinion, which is how I knew any of this to begin with), they agreed to take in the members Green's leadership said were active. They did not agree to any method of Green's disbanding, and knew nothing about it.

So if they disbanded it would be ok and you would accept them in. Yet you did not agree to any method of GREEn disbanding? Weird.

Not sure if your golden tongue just got twisted in knots, or if you "screwed the pooch" :icon_wink:
 

DeletedUser92

Guest
Occam's razor says to take the simplest of the explanations available... so why do you insist on believing that there was an elaborate plot involving not one but two DECIDE plants in GREEN, who joined weeks before the war started, worked their way up into leadership positions without giving any hint of their real intent, and managed to disband the tribe?


I...Didn't say that? I said its possible, but I said the most likely thing is that this was a sell-out. Most likely, this was Gardez and RCarl saving their skins at the expense of others. Then again, I'm hearing that this isn't the first world on which Gardez was involved in some kind of problem; now, is it?
 
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