Dear People in Libya

[DeletedUser]

The quintessential Marxist view. 'Religion is the opium of the masses'.

And one of the points on which I disagree with Marx. What is the first cause? What was it that created the Big Bang? Any scientific hypothesis which presumes to explain where the universe came from is not a scientific hypothesis at all, because it cannot be disproven. We need something which suspends the laws of causality. That thing is God.

You need to read up on things more before you start discussing them. It makes you look pretty stupid.

 

[DeletedUser]

Religion of all types were made to control the masses; they were made to scare people into doing the right thing.

Probably. Religions were also a turning point in our civilisation, since it provided a formal hierarchy with which to build communities. Religion was probably incredibly essential in the development of our species.

 

[DeletedUser]

You need to read up on things more before you start discussing them. It makes you look pretty stupid.

You need to get into the habit of explaining yourself when you reply. Otherwise, it makes you look as if you're blustering without a leg to stand on.

 

[DeletedUser]

What created god?

God suspends causality, remember?

 

[DeletedUser]

You need to get into the habit of explaining yourself when you reply. Otherwise, it makes you look as if you're blustering without a leg to stand on.

The big bang doesn't try to explain where the universe came from. It is a theory based on observable phenomena which happens to bring us to starting point of the universe.

You are presupposing that scientists come up with a questions and then look for ways to explain it. Which is false. They observe things and then come to a conclusion which surmises 'we observed x because of y, this ties in with this other observation y and also serendipitously explains a, b and c'.

Now on to the subject of Marx. The whole quote is 'Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the masses.' He isn't talking about religion in a theological or even philosophical sense, he is approaching the issue as a sociologist, opium was seen as a 'dream inducer' it is more a statement about the relationship between state religions legal systems and the people than about individuals deluding themselves. After all, he cared very little for the individual or interpersonal relationships.

 

[DeletedUser]

God suspends causality, remember?

Why can't the universe suspend causality? God complicates the issue of origin by adding another link in the chain, a link that cannot be observed, mathematically induced or otherwise deduced and which only has any existence because of some bronze age texts.

 

[DeletedUser96141]

here is something i recently received on facebook. Note that i dont agree with everything said, so get your own conclusions

[SPOIL]

This is probably a longer post than most we see on Facebook, but for the sake of civility and truth, I ask that you read it if you have enough time. The issue of the Embassy assassination, the offensive film and protests is far too important for me to continue ignoring the media lies and distortions.

Shocking and offensive pictures aside, I would like to take a moment and Address the issue of the US embassy bombing and outrage around North Africa and the Middle east in a more objective manner. Most people [in the USA] seem to believe that this is just some "Barbaric Muslim bloodcraze". This is really absolutely and utterly degrading. No matter how technologically backwards or dogmatic they are, the followers of Islam are our fellow human beings and share this pale blue dot with us.

Let me begin by quickly summarizing the nature of the film "Innocence of Muslims". The Film was directed by one "Sam Bacile ", I use quotes because this of course is not his true identity. Sam Bacile identifies as an Israeli Jew, but this is a farce. The man's true name is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, a Coptic Christian, NOT an Israeli Jew.

----
According to the Associated press:
"Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, 55, told The Associated Press in an interview outside Los Angeles that he was manager for the company that produced "Innocence of Muslims," which mocked Muslims and the prophet Muhammad and may have caused inflamed mobs that attacked U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. He provided the first details about a shadowy production group behind the film.

Nakoula denied he directed the film and said he knew the self-described filmmaker, Sam Bacile. But the cellphone number that AP contacted Tuesday to reach the filmmaker who identified himself as Sam Bacile traced to the same address near Los Angeles where AP found Nakoula. Federal court papers said Nakoula's aliases included Nicola Bacily, Erwin Salameh and others...

Nakoula denied he had posed as Bacile. During a conversation outside his home, he offered his driver's license to show his identity but kept his thumb over his middle name, Basseley. Records checks by the AP subsequently found it and other connections to the Bacile persona."
- http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ifWYKzUPaqJJsJ5aj-58K0JCL1Fg?docId=91c9d18979f24144ba8ea358237f046f
----

The story that "Sam Bacile" is an Israeli Jew, with "100 Jewish donors," has spread across the Middle East. It is not possible to withdraw such a story. This is EXACTLY the reaction that Basseley wanted. He has in the past also been found to produce a variety of other xenophobic and anti-islamic propaganda, and during the making of this film even the actors did not know what the film was about as they were misled and filmed many scenes which were never included.

The entire story of the creation of this film was /designed/ to provoke anger and outrage. But to what end? Why would this man think that he could accomplish anything with a D-rated piece of shit film?

Let's step back and evaluate the facts .

Since the 1980s, when the US funded Islamic freedom fighters in the middle east to resist Soviet influence, the US has consistently kept its creeping tentacles in the so-called "Muslim world" of the middle east and northern Africa. Hundreds of covert operations, financing of different opposing terrorist cells and the governments of those countries, bribery in weapons and food to prop up dictators and leaders who catered to the interests of American foreign policy, etc. This has been very apparent and is no secret, Even Al Qaeda [which is admittedly a very small group] was propped up by us in its infancy out of fear of communism.

following the Events of September 11th, 2001, eleven years ago, America Invaded Iraq, Then Afghanistan in a supposed "War on Terror". During this war on terror, estimates place between 150,000 and 200,000 civilian casualties -- that is, people who were not terrorists or attacking soldiers. It is now the situation that in regions of active combat in Afghanistan, almost everybody has lost friends and family to American bombs and bullets. These people, in turn, join groups to fight America. Not to take the fight to us for 72 virgins and martyrdom, but to repel the American invaders and defend their families and their towns and villages from a hostile occupying force [America].

Beyond Political interference in nations in the Muslim world, we also have another distinguishing impact. The state of Israel, which only exists because of the influence of the USA, and is for practical considerations an American proxy state. Since its inception, the UN has come to a consensus over 50 times to reprimand, punish, and sanction Israel for their actions, and many times moved to recognize Palestine. Every single time, America has used its security council veto power to override the will of the other nations and shield Israel from the fallout of their foreign policy, which includes occupation of Palestinian territories and the murder of the current occupants.

Why do I go into this brief history lesson? Because it is relevant and important. Anybody who genuinely believes that the outrage against the Us in the last days is solely due to an obscene, overrated pathetic excuse of a film is absolutely mad. The film was a trigger, it was the detonator that allowed an immediate justification to express the Anger and frustration with America that has been building in so many of these countries. People have been angry for a long time, but this gives the excuse. This gives the justification, and while there are many honest, sincerely peaceful Muslims in these countries, the notion that the violent Muslims are an insignificant tiny percentage of the population is a fiction today, and it is as much the fault of America as it is the locals'. [For actual statistics, please see:http://pastebin.com/HiPKF68s ]; not because modern Muslims are inherently violent by their religion, but because we have been systematically meddling in their affairs, defending those who kill their kin, and killing their kin for over a decade with impunity.

The film wasn't just offensive, it wasn't even just designed to offend. I do not think it is any coincidence that this film released so close to September 11th, nor do I feel that it was an unplanned burst of outrage that killed the American Ambassador in Libya. The attackers had RPGs, Armoured vehicles, machine guns, explosives, and a plan. This was something that was in planning for quite some time before. It was quick, it was well executed, and it was effective. There was also internal collaboration within the embassy, because the safehouse for those who made it out of the Embassy was also attacked hours later.

I propose this: That Bassely released this film in june, but it was not widely publicised to cause outrage until 9/11 intentionally, knowing that when it provoked outrage in the Muslim world, that Americans would still have fresh in their minds the memory of the September 11th attacks when violence broke out. I propose, that the embassy attacks were planned long in advance of the film's release, and that it was an executed assassination using the film as justification to mask the attack as a popular uprising.

I propose that both of these entities, independently, sought to create an environment of conflict between the Western world and Islam, and intentionally misled both spheres of civilization with misinformation. These are not barbaric bloodthirsty Muslims on the streets, these are people who see in the film a Jewish attack on Islam Defended by America, who has so long been interfering in their affairs and in their eyes, oppressing them. The Embassy killing was just the perfect topping, a strong insult to America which could provoke emotional outrage in the highly sensitive and proud Americans, the kind of outrage that would demand their leader send Warships near Libya, an act which would heighten tensions even more, in turn provoking more outrage.

Dear Muslims and Americans alike, you are both being manipulated, by Nakoula Basseley, By the American and local Arabic Media, and by insurgent groups in Muslim countries who want to see your countries at War with or in open defiance of America so that they can seize power. America, while I cannot condone its actions, nor will I try to, is a very powerful military power. A war against America is folly which will only serve to hurt whoever america fights in terms of bodies, and further expand the scope of America's interventionist foreign policy and deepen the International economic problems of the world. If you are a Muslim who believes Islam is the religion of peace, or an American who does not want to be responsible for further bloodshed and needless war, I ask that you help your peers, In America, North Africa, and the middle east to understand this. Please tell them what is really happening, dispel the lies and misinformation they have been fed. There is no need to be in conflict, and we ought not be moved so easily toward violence against each other. War is the most terrible game of all that men have invented, a game where the only winning move is not to play.

Sincerely, your humble Narrator and Friend, Quin.

[/SPOIL]

 

[DeletedUser]

Religion=Faith, Faith=Hope, Hope= Driving factor of all great things
No I'm not saying that all hope stems from religion... that would be absurd. What I am saying is that for many religion is what allows you to have faith and hope for a better world. I believe religion is an important factor in life whether you practice it or not. What I de believe though is that the radicals from all religious groups or cults are the problem... sometimes the people just need to sit back and smoke a freaking cig.
A movie made by a few American that flames Muslims does not give ANYONE any grounds to attack a completely innocent American and kill him. However on the otherside... because a few Muslims are radical and attack and terrorize Americans we have no grounds to judge ALL of the Muslim population. Both sides are at fault whether directly provoking the other with offensive movies or offensive posts or murders or invading nations.... and everyone who doesn't stand up and apologize is guilty... maybe not directly by doing so but by association.

2 cents,
ImSofaKing Awesome

Faith is idiocy. I fail to see how it is the 'x' in x=hope.
A better world?
[spoil]The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Quran (9:111) Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): THEY FIGHT IN HIS CAUSE AND SLAY AND ARE SLAIN: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Injil, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

"I shall terrorise the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose Allah and his apostle." (Qur'an 8:12)

"Paradise lies under the shade of swords" (Sahih Bukhari V4B5N73)

"Muhammad said, ‘You are commanded to carry out jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam' " (Qur'an 47:4)

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"[/spoil]

[spoil]Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)[/spoil]

The quintessential Marxist view. 'Religion is the opium of the masses'.

And one of the points on which I disagree with Marx. What is the first cause? What was it that created the Big Bang? Any scientific hypothesis which presumes to explain where the universe came from is not a scientific hypothesis at all, because it cannot be disproven. We need something which suspends the laws of causality. That thing is God.

Why cannot 'that thing' be the universe? If you are to accept the notion that God can just appear why not that the universe can just appear?
I don't know what was the first cause. There's your answer. Nobody knows. Science, on one hand, says 'I don't know, let's find out'. Religion says 'I don't know, it must be some magical dude in the sky or somethin'. Not knowing is not a justification to resort to such a brash unsupported theory in order to explain something instead of admitting that science has not touched on that path yet. Religion was made to fill in the gaps; unfortunately it merely replaced one mystery with another. I could answer the mystery easily. I could say that a leaf made the universe, or this d630 latitude made life, etc. something being able to explain something does not make that something correct. It needs to be supported. If you cannot support it with scientific evidence, it stays on the same level as the theory that a leaf made the universe. I could cook up billions more unsupported explanations for things I don't know the answer to, but unless I can support a single one it is statistically 1/(amount of explanations I could make), or over 99.999999999.....%, unlikely. Imagine me presenting trillions of sardines in front of you and saying 'One sardine is more intelligent than the others. If you do not pick the right one you're going to hell'.
I'm terrible at explaining but I hope that was clear enough to be understood.

 

[DeletedUser]

The big bang doesn't try to explain where the universe came from. It is a theory based on observable phenomena which happens to bring us to starting point of the universe.

You are presupposing that scientists come up with a questions and then look for ways to explain it. Which is false. They observe things and then come to a conclusion which surmises 'we observed x because of y, this ties in with this other observation y and also serendipitously explains a, b and c'.

Now on to the subject of Marx. The whole quote is 'Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the masses.' He isn't talking about religion in a theological or even philosophical sense, he is approaching the issue as a sociologist, opium was seen as a 'dream inducer' it is more a statement about the relationship between state religions legal systems and the people than about individuals deluding themselves. After all, he cared very little for the individual or interpersonal relationships.

I know that.

No. They present a hypothesis, and see what the hypothesis predicts will happen. They then test this, and if the results differ from the expected result, they (test again and) revise their hypothesis.

Read more around the quote. 'Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.' 'This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world' 'Man makes religion, religion does not make man.' All of which strongly imply that religion is merely fabricated, a false hope, not a divinely inspired way of life.

Why can't the universe suspend causality? God complicates the issue of origin by adding another link in the chain, a link that cannot be observed, mathematically induced or otherwise deduced and which only has any existence because of some bronze age texts.

Because that's unscientific. Nothing comes from nothing, according to the laws of reality as we know it. We cannot observe beyond the beginning of the Big Bang. We do not, cannot, know what was before the Big Bang, and hence before that we rely solely on faith.
Do not smugly assume that just because they happened to live in the Bronze Age, they were stupid. They were probably about as intelligent as we are now, and equally sceptical. Without a decent amount of evidence, they would not have believed in God.

 

[DeletedUser]

Faith is idiocy. I fail to see how it is the 'x' in x=hope.
A better world?
<snip>

'Science' was responsible for one of the greatest genocides in history. Would you like to tell me why Hitler killed off the Jews? An atheist state also killed (over its 80 year history) more people probably than religion has managed in the past 2000. Don't tell me that without religion, the world would be a better place.

Why cannot 'that thing' be the universe? If you are to accept the notion that God can just appear why not that the universe can just appear?
I don't know what was the first cause. There's your answer. Nobody knows. Science, on one hand, says 'I don't know, let's find out'. Religion says 'I don't know, it must be some magical dude in the sky or somethin'. Not knowing is not a justification to resort to such a brash unsupported theory in order to explain something instead of admitting that science has not touched on that path yet. Religion was made to fill in the gaps; unfortunately it merely replaced one mystery with another. I could answer the mystery easily. I could say that a leaf made the universe, or this d630 latitude made life, etc. something being able to explain something does not make that something correct. It needs to be supported. If you cannot support it with scientific evidence, it stays on the same level as the theory that a leaf made the universe. I could cook up billions more unsupported explanations for things I don't know the answer to, but unless I can support a single one it is statistically 1/(amount of explanations I could make), or over 99.999999999.....%, unlikely. Imagine me presenting trillions of sardines in front of you and saying 'One sardine is more intelligent than the others. If you do not pick the right one you're going to hell'.
I'm terrible at explaining but I hope that was clear enough to be understood.

See my previous reply. If science attempts to speculate on our ultimate origins, it is not science any more, it is a faith. We cannot observe before the start of the universe. And hence, we do need something that suspends causality. I hold faith that it was God. You may hold faith that it was anything else that you can think of. But do not pretend to be scientific when you do so.
The reason I believe in God specifically is a combination of Pascal's Wager and morality.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hitler beat the Jesus Drum, Bran.

 

[DeletedUser]

I know that.

No. They present a hypothesis, and see what the hypothesis predicts will happen. They then test this, and if the results differ from the expected result, they (test again and) revise their hypothesis.

Read more around the quote. 'Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.' 'This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world' 'Man makes religion, religion does not make man.' All of which strongly imply that religion is merely fabricated, a false hope, not a divinely inspired way of life.
Because that's unscientific. Nothing comes from nothing, according to the laws of reality as we know it. We cannot observe beyond the beginning of the Big Bang. We do not, cannot, know what was before the Big Bang, and hence before that we rely solely on faith.
Do not smugly assume that just because they happened to live in the Bronze Age, they were stupid. They were probably about as intelligent as we are now, and equally sceptical. Without a decent amount of evidence, they would not have believed in God.

The hypothesis comes from an observable phenomena, which they then test. All science originates with observation since they are the only things we know to be accurate.

There is no such thing as nothing. lrn2quantumthoery.

We do know what was before the big bang, quantum flux.

They were as curious as we were, and when they didn't have (for example) telescopes and basic geometry they asked question as to what the sun is any why is acted they way it does. When they couldn't find out due to limitations in technology the only remaining answer was God (or gods) and it was convenient, easy and settled their curiosity. They believed in God because there was sufficient evidence to, they had priests claiming divine contact, self fulfilling prophecy was thrown around and people believed. They didn't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, it was more comfortable and frankly safer to believe.

 

[DeletedUser]

If one has to join on September 11 to make a "Flame Muslims" post on a online multiplayer forum for entertainment or some sick form of pleasure, then I believe you have absolutely no right to say who the world has beaten because clearly you have been beaten for a long time.

I started this account in 2011, I originally started posting in these here forums in 2009.

This is far from a flame Muslims thread, it wasn't even my intent to make it into one. This thread was about the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi, naturally it has been molded into something else because that is what OT does. I can't exactly say what is now, but I can say it isn't a thread to flame Muslims. Look at the original post, I didn't even mention Islam or Muslims. Others have defended Muslims. If you can't take my overly simple jokes/attempts to troll then you should probably leave OT.

Also, this is OT, so it has absolutely nothing to do with Tribal Wars. Most people in OT don't play the game anymore.

FF is just trying to be high and snooty.

Yeah kind of.

 

[DeletedUser]

'Science' was responsible for one of the greatest genocides in history. Would you like to tell me why Hitler killed off the Jews? An atheist state also killed (over its 80 year history) more people probably than religion has managed in the past 2000. Don't tell me that without religion, the world would be a better place.
See my previous reply. If science attempts to speculate on our ultimate origins, it is not science any more, it is a faith. We cannot observe before the start of the universe. And hence, we do need something that suspends causality.I hold faith that it was God. You may hold faith that it was anything else that you can think of. But do not pretend to be scientific when you do so.
The reason I believe in God specifically is a combination of Pascal's Wager and morality.

Because he disliked Jews. What does that have to do with religion or God? Hitler was a Catholic, and if you push the 'oh ya but Stalin was an atheist' argument on me, atheism regards only a state of belief concerning the existence of God, nothing more. Atheism was not the inspiration, unlike how religion is for many other murderers.
Science was not responsible. Those who misused science were responsible.
Watch me; 'the world would be better without religion'. Much better. What have you detracted from that?
What is your evidence that we cannot see before the big bang? If science could 'speculate on our ultimate origins' without evidence, it would be faith, rather.
Why? What if the universe has existed infinitely? What if it was made from something other than God that has existed infinitely? And so on.
Faith is for idiots.
I would rather have logical morals determined from scientifically supported points than from a book written by cavemen.

 

[DeletedUser]

'Science' was responsible for one of the greatest genocides in history. Would you like to tell me why Hitler killed off the Jews? An atheist state also killed (over its 80 year history) more people probably than religion has managed in the past 2000. Don't tell me that without religion, the world would be a better place.

Which Atheist state are you thinking of there, I'm guessing Russia or China? Because Religion has killed millions in 2000 years and they are the only two atheist one's I could think of that would be able to beat that.

I thought Hitler saw Jews as an easy scapegoat because every Christian country had been persecuting them for centuries already and altough things were better for Jews then they still had it hard in most places.

 

[DeletedUser]

Because that's unscientific. Nothing comes from nothing, according to the laws of reality as we know it. We cannot observe beyond the beginning of the Big Bang. We do not, cannot, know what was before the Big Bang, and hence before that we rely solely on faith.
Do not smugly assume that just because they happened to live in the Bronze Age, they were stupid. They were probably about as intelligent as we are now, and equally sceptical. Without a decent amount of evidence, they would not have believed in God.

You said it yourself. 'As we know it'. We do not know any further, even when it is possible we could, therefore it is not certain.
Exactly. You're shooting yourself in the foot. We do not (I disagree on 'cannot') know what was before the big bang. Why must you assume what happened before, then? Why must you guess instead of saying 'I do not know and will lack the belief that anything happened before the big bang until scientific evidence is presented for any theories attempting to solve such mysteries'?
That depends on how you define intelligence, but I would agree on them being as skeptical. Back then, however, the mystery of the start of the universe and life lay completely untouched, so illogical as it may be, guessing there was a supernatural cause was much more excusable than it is now, with such vast knowledge at our fingertips to explain what before had only one explanation. Still, there were those who refused to believe without evidence; Protagorus, Arcesilaus, Democritus...

 

[DeletedUser]

The reason I believe in God specifically is a combination of Pascal's Wager and morality.

Lol pascals wager? You really are as stupid as I previously believed.

 

[DeletedUser]

The hypothesis comes from an observable phenomena, which they then test. All science originates with observation since they are the only things we know to be accurate.

There is no such thing as nothing. lrn2quantumthoery.

We do know what was before the big bang, quantum flux.

They were as curious as we were, and when they didn't have (for example) telescopes and basic geometry they asked question as to what the sun is any why is acted they way it does. When they couldn't find out due to limitations in technology the only remaining answer was God (or gods) and it was convenient, easy and settled their curiosity. They believed in God because there was sufficient evidence to, they had priests claiming divine contact, self fulfilling prophecy was thrown around and people believed. They didn't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, it was more comfortable and frankly safer to believe.

That makes anything which I said irrelevant because...

Idiot. Maybe you should take another look at your understanding of quantum theory.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That is all that I have to say about your display of stupidity right there.

And you conclude that because...

Because he disliked Jews. What does that have to do with religion or God? Hitler was a Catholic, and if you push the 'oh ya but Stalin was an atheist' argument on me, atheism regards only a state of belief concerning the existence of God, nothing more. Atheism was not the inspiration, unlike how religion is for many other murderers.
Science was not responsible. Those who misused science were responsible.
Watch me; 'the world would be better without religion'. Much better. What have you detracted from that?
What is your evidence that we cannot see before the big bang? If science could 'speculate on our ultimate origins' without evidence, it would be faith, rather.
Why? What if the universe has existed infinitely? What if it was made from something other than God that has existed infinitely? And so on.
Faith is for idiots.
I would rather have logical morals determined from scientifically supported points than from a book written by cavemen.

No, the Holocaust was due to eugenics. Look it up.
Stalin went out of his way to persecute Orthodox Christians, and the entire atmosphere which the atheism of the Soviet Union created was in no small part responsible for the resultant events.
No, they used science just fine. Pity that they based their conclusions on erroneous data.
Resorting to childishness here, mm? How... intellectual.

'Logical morals'? Give me an example of this, please? And I'm not even going to address your historical inaccuracies...

Which Atheist state are you thinking of there, I'm guessing Russia or China? Because Religion has killed millions in 2000 years and they are the only two atheist one's I could think of that would be able to beat that.

I thought Hitler saw Jews as an easy scapegoat because every Christian country had been persecuting them for centuries already and altough things were better for Jews then they still had it hard in most places.

Both, yes.

It was due to eugenics and the idea of untermensch that he persecuted Jews and Slavs, and black people.

You said it yourself. 'As we know it'. We do not know any further, even when it is possible we could, therefore it is not certain.
Exactly. You're shooting yourself in the foot. We do not (I disagree on 'cannot') know what was before the big bang. Why must you assume what happened before, then? Why must you guess instead of saying 'I do not know and will lack the belief that anything happened before the big bang until scientific evidence is presented for any theories attempting to solve such mysteries'?
That depends on how you define intelligence, but I would agree on them being as skeptical. Back then, however, the mystery of the start of the universe and life lay completely untouched, so illogical as it may be, guessing there was a supernatural cause was much more excusable than it is now, with such vast knowledge at our fingertips to explain what before had only one explanation. Still, there were those who refused to believe without evidence; Protagorus, Arcesilaus, Democritus...

Because nothing does come from nothing until we suspend causality. I cannot see any way in which the universe could have come about without divine intervention, hence, I believe in divine power. Incoherently, of course.

Just so, the early atheists. Nevertheless, my reasoning remains untouched: we cannot (with foreseeable technology, shall we say?) tell where we came from, and I cannot see any way without divine intervention.

Lol pascals wager? You really are as stupid as I previously believed.

You're doing that not explaining thing again, wackee. I've read the arguments against it. They suck.

 

[DeletedUser]

That makes anything which I said irrelevant because...

Idiot. Maybe you should take another look at your understanding of quantum theory.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That is all that I have to say about your display of stupidity right there.

And you conclude that because...

What does the quantum world have to say about nothing then? Name one place where there is 'nothing'.

Space is a vacuum, apparently nothing (by classical definitions). However, if there is 'nothing' between us and the sun, why are we not touching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0

 

[DeletedUser96141]

You proved nothing

'Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"'

I told you to get it from shiite sources. Thats sunni