world 37 history debate

DeletedUser

Guest
I think we lost Vietnam due to politicians pussy footing. The Vietcong could just cross into china were we couldn't follow and launch attacks from there, so for the most part of the war we would just get ambushed from the left all the time. It's a big boarder so setting up a wall or something like that just isn't possible, and commanding a battle where you are constantly open on one flank is impossible. Saddest part is that it took them so damn long to figure we can't win it if we dont fight china too, and even then they decided to keep trying. Casualty figures and things like that were exaggerated to the American public to make it look like we where winning and such.

I blame everything from the cold war, to our current war on Eisenhower
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Not Truman?

He sure as hell didn't help either but Eisenhower wanted the wars to end early just to use it to get elected president.

I mean really look at why we nuked japan. We target civilians intentionally, and made Hitlers bombing of London look token in comparison. We could have targeted harbors, or fleets of ships and just threaten to use it on civilians with the same effect. But my one rule in war is that you leave non-combatants out of the fighting and bombing, even if the other side doesn't. How can we claim to be the "good guys" in the war and yet we killed tons of civilians and gave fatal or life altering radiation sickness to even more.

In the European theater there was the USSR. I mean seriously, who the hell thought stalin wouldn't turn on us as soon as it war profitable? Call hitler bad, when it comes to genocide Stalin almost had him beat by numbers. There tactics in war made it very clear there were people higher up not caring about others for there own profits. In my book attrition is not a legitiamate tactic, and not one you ask your men to go threw, also if you look at there tactics you can see thats all they ever tried. I mean it's like everyone forgot that Hitler and Stalin were allies, and that Stalin sided with him knowing his intention for profit. Hitler backstabbed him so naturally Stalin allied with our nations, but Stalin never did anything to help us out. Didn't help in the sea against Japan, send supplies or anything like that, his intentions were crystal clear.

I agree with Patton, we should have turned on the USSR, and took them out when we had the chance cause sooner or later we would have to fight them. Also there is a HUGE amount of evidence that points to Patton being killed off with Eisenhower's consent, threw the OSS. Even after that failed we turned a blind eye to the USSR poisoning Patton while he was hospitalized.

This is why I believe in the right to bear arms, if that crap would have gotten worse rebellion is the only option.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Goddamn, strikeraider your posts are sometimes so asinine, they are unbelievable. I mean,

The Vietcong could just cross into china

For your information, the ground war was mainly fought in South Vietnam. South Vietnam dis not share a border with China! It bordered Cambodia, Laos and North Vietnam.

The people you call the "Vietcong" who's actual name was the NLF (National Liberation Front) did not win the war because your politicians pussyfooted around. They won because of their perseverance, discipline, belief in the justice of their cause, unbelievable sacrifices and the consistent support they enjoyed from the rural population of South Vietnam. All you have to do is read histories of the war to realize this. If I were you, I would pay particular attention to the differences in the fighting qualities of the NLF and what your people called the ARVIN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam), i.e. the army of the government of South Vietnam your allies. The ARVIN were cowardly, fought badly, were ill disciplined and had no commitment.

And as for you posts about the 2nd world war, I refer to the following statement,
Stalin never did anything to help us out

This statement is so unbelievably crass and ignorant, that it made me gag. The peoples of the USSR played the central role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. They paid an immense cost in doing so. The key turning point battles of World War II were all fought in the USSR, i.e. the battles of Moscow(1941), Stalingrad(1942), Kursk (1943) and in 1944 the destruction of Army Group Centre. It won't be an exagerration to say that if it hadn't been for the peoples of the USSR, we would be German slaves today and speaking, reading and writing German. Dude, you have to read.
 

DeletedUser71940

Guest
Not the Stalin I'd say, more like the spirit of the Soviet people. As soon as the Germans had attacked USSR, Stalin went into hiding for few days, according to the historians he was so shocked by the attack he did not wish to appear publicly, but yeah the west does owe Russia some kudos points for holding off Germans for so long, if they didn't it is highly likely all of the Europe would be under German Occupation, like the French.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Didn't help in the sea against Japan, send supplies or anything like that, his intentions were crystal clear.

I'm not sure you fully grasp the level of devastation Germany wreaked on the USSR from 1941-1943, or the pyscological impact that had.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
North Vietnam would have never gotten that damn road back had they not asked for a cease fire for negotiation then while just saying no to everything they fortified it. So ya politician ruined it cause that road was the near soul supplier of the Vietcong's resistance. I do agree that the southern Vietnamese resistance was a joke for the most part, and that's mainly because so few wanted democracy, I also think that we rigged that election. I think we should have just let the election go threw, and if they wanted communism, well that's what they want threw a democratic vote.

Also referring to china, ask any America pilot were those guys ran away too when they thought they were losing the fight. When ever we got back to the norther part, they always used china or Chinese controlled states on there boarders.

The U.S.S.R only lost so much because there general were picked for loyalty to stalin rather then there ability to command. Rush until your all dead or there dead is not a legitimate tactic, and only threw Hitler arrogance and indecisive actions did the soviet union not fall to germany. Keep in mind right before Hitler was about to clear out Moscow, he had all forces rerouted to Leningrad and Stalingrad. The Soviets winning the battle of Kursk was another mistake of hitlers because he didn't allow his general to attack for month while he sent more tiger tanks in, during that time the soviets turned perfect blitz terrain into a tanks worst nightmare, had hitler not stalled his general there fortifications there would have been none existent. It would have allowed for a main road to open up to the heart of the soviet union.

Stalingrad was a mistake that hitler made as well, he and stalin both made a mistake fighting for that damn town. However the Germany's had the upper hand and gave it away when they decided to engage in close warfare. His generals wanted to just surround the town and starve them out rather then fighting to take the town. Had the soviets been forced to fight in the open they would have been slaughtered whole sale. Not to mention the forces he could have saved and diverted to go and take Moscow. Not preparing for the war to go into the winter months was also a huge mistake on Hitlers part, and once again his general warned him about it.

Overall the soviets had they come up with better tactics then attrition would have had to lose a lot less men and women. There is no one to blame but themselves for allowing such jokes of leaders to command on the battlefield.

Also we didn't need the soviets to win that war, once hitler lost his navy that was endgame for him. We had several options that were all better then Normandy invasion, and I even think that operation was foolish. Odd enough it was done on the request of stalin and the french resistance for us to open another front in in Europe/ help reclaim France. Personally since the french were some of the first people we had to fight in ww2, I wouldn't have indulged there request at all.

Also as part of the German slave thing, do you think it would have been different had America not gotten into the fight? We literally had nothing to do there minus backing our allies. Do you think it was right for Stalin to keep the land promised to him by Hitler? Or that had the war ended and the french and British were the only one's involved would Stalin have stopped and not turned on them?

Oh ya and the USSR did take 2 islands from japan, but that was after they heard about us dropping the atomic bombs. That's some bravery. I stick to my stance that after the end of the European theater we should have engaged the USSR with the help of Germany, it would have saved lots of people from being massacred in Ukraine, among other regions and just people that didn't like or were suspected of not liking there government.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Also we didn't need the soviets to win that war, once hitler lost his navy that was endgame for him.

wrong. The USSR played a huge role in retaking central European countries (Poland, Czech countries, etc) back from Germany, and even took more of Germany than the US did if I remember correctly.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Not preparing for the war to go into the winter months was also a huge mistake on Hitlers part, and once again his general warned him about it.
agree. that was one of the least intelligent things he had ever done. his soldiers would have had a chance if they'd been equipped properly, as even the soviets weren't fully equipped (with rifles and ammunition).


I stick to my stance that after the end of the European theater we should have engaged the USSR with the help of Germany, it would have saved lots of people from being massacred in Ukraine, among other regions and just people that didn't like or were suspected of not liking there government.
yup... Stalin killed more than Hitler (and thats going by the numbers that we have some proof of, not even the estimates of the most that could have been killed). but somehow the rest of the world just stood by and watched. even when their own were being killed off (people on vacation, or people who moved to the USSR territory).
and the rest of the world had to know about what stalin was doing. but i guess they ignored it because they didn't want another world war...
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Check out this thread, I have been debating with some thick skulled guy that wont accept the facts >_>

http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=150595&page=7

it's a long read as I have provided a crap ton of info :icon_neutral:

wrong. The USSR played a huge role in retaking central European countries (Poland, Czech countries, etc) back from Germany, and even took more of Germany than the US did if I remember correctly.

That's only because Stalin convinced our higher up's to invade from Normandy and not threw Greece which would have cut off the soviet advance. We were force to stop on several occasions because of the soviets one example is Falaise Gap in the autumn of 1944, allowing hundreds of thousands of German troops to escape to fight again,. This led to the deaths of thousands of Americans during their winter counter-offensive that became known as the Battle of the Bulge. In order to placate Stalin, the 3rd Army was also ordered to a halt as it reached the German border and was prevented from seizing either Berlin or Prague, moves that could have prevented Soviet domination of Eastern Europe after the war.

We didn't need the USSR, the only reason why the USSR lost as many men as they did is because Stalin killed all his best generals and officers to replace them with pawns that were just loyal to him. He killed all his talent and because of that his people suffered fighting battles of attrition rather then having a real tactician in command. I don't think there was one battle the USSR was in that they didn't lose twice as much as there opposition even in Stalingrad which they clearly had the advantage in close quarters, but they never fought smarter rather then harder.

Only reason why Germany wasn't taken all by America and Britain is because we pussy footed with Stalin in hopes we would gain trade of there natural resources. Politicians are thick headed, and know nothing about how to access a threat, they just see $ signs. Personally I think we should have given France to Germany permanently and armed the Germans again to engage the USSR. France switched sides to whichever they thought would win or which ever was the most direct threat. Instead of fighting Germany after they took there capital they signed over to Germany, and fought us at the Kasba castle, only to switch sides again after it was obvious they were going to die against us. Instead of fighting us they could have just turned on there Germans there right away when they seen us coming, instead they tested there luck. I don't trust governments like that, at least the Germans pick a side and stick with it throughout there wars.
 
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