DeletedUser
Guest
your name looks like you threw your cat at the keyboard
your name looks like you threw your cat at the keyboard
DeletedUser
Guest
That is actually the best remark made in this topic thusfar mate :icon_wink:
Only one that put a smile on my face too.
DeletedUser
Guest
Really this is getting quite pathetic now. Wisdom is not going to convince BA and BA is not going to convince Wisdom. Basically yelling at each other over the littlist things is not going to get any of you anywhere. You'll have a better time convincing a tree to get up and move. So step back and take a deep breath. Lets see some reason based arguments, backed up with evidence if possible. And not just bits and pieces of random mails with no context. .Writing in all caps and in bold doesnt make what you say true either. String your evidence together to make a cohesive and rational argument. If you disagree, write a well reasoned rebuttal that address that points made. This is how you properly debate, not with this yelling, flaming and name calling. You generally all look very foolish at the very least and you are back at where you started or perhaps even worse.
DeletedUser
Guest
No insults to trees please!
DeletedUser
Guest
Originally Posted by swan9564
You'll have a better time convincing a tree to get up andmoveleave.
Fixed.
netjakdim
Guest
I completly agree on this statement both sides are kind of hard headed but having talked somewhat with each side they both feel their are in the right and seem to both be able to back up their sides to a degree.
Swan sir as an ex-leader, who I imagine still has lots of pull within his tribe I might suggest this argument has become more about convincing you and a few of the other leaders out there as to who is the party in the right.
I do not envy you or any of the other leaders not one bit sir. This has become a most intriguing situation for the rest of us to follow.
DeletedUser
Guest
Yeah, I understand the main point is to convince those watching on the outside. However, I also was arguing that the way they are arguing may be doing them more harm than good. I for have no respect for people that have to result to yelling and name calling while presenting barely any evidence that could be argued to have been taken out of context. However if they were presenting a case in a clear, coherent and rational manner, along with reasonal rebuttals to counter the points of others, they'd have a better chance of convincing the the public. But as of late that hasnt really happened and has degraded into a mess with sides arguing over, in my opinion, the most pointless things. I know in at least my case, that has affected my opinions on certain people.
DeletedUser
Guest
Well maybe if you read the postings here you can see that the [BA] has over and over again proven threw facts its point of view where wisdom has not yet done this. They have said alot with little to back there words.
netjakdim
Guest
This is one reason I know I personally have alot of growth before I even need to worry about screwing up 13th Politics and let Sir M and the others keep the course going.
I have actually recieved one mail from 3 different people each of whom had a totally different view of what the mail said as well as what I originally saw in the mail. So that makes 4 completly different views of the exact same message. Sometimes even the simplest words can be twisted to fit any meaning sir. Take the Bible for instance, 1 book and about 50 different religions sprouting from that 1 book each of which can not seem to agree exactly how it should be interpretated.
As a leader I would hope you as you say would send rebuttles to accusations made against your tribe.
Now here we go people are going to call me a WisdomHater/BAbuttkisser but I have seen mails posted from BA stating their case however on here I see Wisdom council members coming out and simply stating the mails are a load of garb. It would be a little more effective if Inty and Sumo would come out and point out their mails as well others would see a different side. They however seem more tightly played and had to be pestered for lack of a better word to talk to me but I see how they explain their sides and they make just as much sense to defend themselves as BA does in pointing out their side. They just seem a little more reluctant to actually post thier laundry out in the open forums. To this I give Wisdom council much credit for believing the majority of us are smart enough to see through deceptions. However I speak from experience as one of the moronic masses. "We are mostly SIMPLETONS and really only want to follow in this game that is why we join tribes to let others lead." Honestly you give the majority of us WAY to much CREDIT.
DeletedUser
Guest
Spectors, I have browsed through all these postings. Personally, I find your evidence a little lacking. From a rational point of view, I didnt see much of threat from Wisdom in the mails that are posted, rather than pointing out the potential danger from two Superpowers competing for potentially the same territory with no relations. History has shown that this competition for resources and territory can often lead to war between the competing powers. And from what I see, Inty may be trying to avoid that same scenario so he can focus elsewhere. What would be more damning is actual wisdom mails and/or forum posts showing Wisdom plotting to war BA. As for other evidence, from what I read it may be taken out of context out of larger conversations. So I find your case flawed and at the best a weak circumstantial case. This whole thread is about destroying wisdom's reputation and presenting a case to do that, so you, the prosecutors, have the burden of proof here.
Wisdom's role in this thread has largely been to rebut points made about them. They are the defense. And for us, the jury, poking holes in your case is all they need to do to put reasonable doubt into the equation, though I admittedly would like to see some evidence to back their rebuttals and counterpoints ,which would also make their case stronger. They have chosen not to for whatever reason.
However my points still stand, there has been a lot of name calling here and a lot of accusations being made with in my eyes flimsy evidence at best. To me, doing this repeatedly nonstop hurts the side engaging in it, as does a lot of the petty back and forth. This goes for both sides.
Net, I do understand Wisdom's as well as others unwillingness to post their evidence here on the forums. A lot of info comes in from confidential sources that they are reluctant to reveal. I had been put in similar situations here and choose to let the other side post their BS than reveal info that could be easily traced backed to secret sources.
Wisdom's role in this thread has largely been to rebut points made about them. They are the defense. And for us, the jury, poking holes in your case is all they need to do to put reasonable doubt into the equation, though I admittedly would like to see some evidence to back their rebuttals and counterpoints ,which would also make their case stronger. They have chosen not to for whatever reason.
However my points still stand, there has been a lot of name calling here and a lot of accusations being made with in my eyes flimsy evidence at best. To me, doing this repeatedly nonstop hurts the side engaging in it, as does a lot of the petty back and forth. This goes for both sides.
Net, I do understand Wisdom's as well as others unwillingness to post their evidence here on the forums. A lot of info comes in from confidential sources that they are reluctant to reveal. I had been put in similar situations here and choose to let the other side post their BS than reveal info that could be easily traced backed to secret sources.
DeletedUser
Guest
And here I thought that this whole argument started because "[BA] betrayed Wisdom for no reason" (this was one of the reason given when Wisdom declared war on HORDES, first post).
It eventually turned into us demonstrating that we broke the NAP because we felt we couldn't trust Wisdom and posted mails about it. There was then several attempts to redirect the conversation, mostly initiated by Integritous ([BA] tried to tell Wisdom what to do, [BA] convinced SABRE to declare war on Wisdom, [BA] recruited refugee from Wisdom's war, etc).
Please explain how being accused of betrayal and of plotting against Wisdom mean that they don't need to show any evidence. The effect on Wisdom's reputation here is merely a side effect from our point of view since it seems that most of what they accused us doing, they in fact did themselves.
It eventually turned into us demonstrating that we broke the NAP because we felt we couldn't trust Wisdom and posted mails about it. There was then several attempts to redirect the conversation, mostly initiated by Integritous ([BA] tried to tell Wisdom what to do, [BA] convinced SABRE to declare war on Wisdom, [BA] recruited refugee from Wisdom's war, etc).
Please explain how being accused of betrayal and of plotting against Wisdom mean that they don't need to show any evidence. The effect on Wisdom's reputation here is merely a side effect from our point of view since it seems that most of what they accused us doing, they in fact did themselves.
SmaXa
Guest
It is a sad day for World 17 when void420's opinion is slowly becoming diluted by [BA]-proism.
Yes, Wisdom has screwed up a little, so what? Do not pretend for one second [BA] is completely justified in it's ways, however it does them. [BA] has done it's fair share of backstabbing. In actual fact, [BA] has broken promises more recently than Wisdom. No amount of convoluted proof is going to completely tarnish the respectable image of Wisdom.
Same goes for you, Wise guys, Even if [BA] persuaded SABRE to attack (which i would not be surprised at, given recent events) you, don't think for even one second of yelling at them for it, because it is a certainty you have diplomatically ruined other tribes as well, the most recent example being HORDES, and also i'd be surprised if Eturgen declared simply of they're own will. I personally was on the end of one of your bargains, some time ago.
Yes, Wisdom has screwed up a little, so what? Do not pretend for one second [BA] is completely justified in it's ways, however it does them. [BA] has done it's fair share of backstabbing. In actual fact, [BA] has broken promises more recently than Wisdom. No amount of convoluted proof is going to completely tarnish the respectable image of Wisdom.
Same goes for you, Wise guys, Even if [BA] persuaded SABRE to attack (which i would not be surprised at, given recent events) you, don't think for even one second of yelling at them for it, because it is a certainty you have diplomatically ruined other tribes as well, the most recent example being HORDES, and also i'd be surprised if Eturgen declared simply of they're own will. I personally was on the end of one of your bargains, some time ago.
kitex1
Guest
Wisdom never stuffed up smaxa, we just played BA's feeble attempts to gain control of the south...
SmaXa
Guest
You can try and convince anyone you want that Wisdom is perfect, but be smart about it, and try and convince someone who WASN'T the reason/subject of one of Wisdom's mistakes.
kitex1
Guest
Never said wisdom was perfect buddy!
DeletedUser
Guest
I just love how every anti-[BA] poster in this thread make sweeping statements with nothing to back them up :lol:
Seriously, this is becoming ridiculous. There are 'neutral' posters (mainly Wisdom affiliates) coming in here and agreeing with everything said against [BA], without so much as an ingame mail to prove a point or show evidence. It is almost as if quality has been thrown out the window and people expect that the the sheer quantity of anti [BA] posts will make us lose our number one spot :lol:
kitex1
Guest
Maybe Ba Should start sticking to their own backyard rather then trying to fiddle behind the scenes in ours eg SABRE Then there wouldn't be such a problem then would there?
DeletedUser
Guest
Perhaps you would need to stop your unbacked BS, or shall I also start posting utterly pathetic assumptions without any evidence like Wisdom do?
FYI, all we did here was to counter and disprove Wisdom statements by providing the necessary twstats and internal game mails (which we can also forward in-game), and though players from your side may find it "weak", it is actually stronger with many IGMs and twstats than any of your BS. You have never backed any single statement up to this point, just posted BS after BS, hoping that the sheer amount of BS can back itself.
Very mature. Just because you're sure that your paranoid assumptions are correct and if [BA] doesn't like a backstabbing, unloyal, ever-changing diplomacy like Wisdom has, then we are surely an evil puppet-master trying to pull strings everywhere, it won't be true. In fact we can prove by many mails that it was Wisdom trying to pull strings around 13th, 100I, xD, SABRE and [BA] during the southern issues as Wisdom decided to police the whole south, including us, and was changing the rules and threaten or 'advise' many of the sides on a daily basis while all the remaining tribes were working hard (over many days, led by Sir Marticus) to somehow fix the situation and meet the expectations of all parties.
I'm sure that it was also [BA] which was conspiring against BH for almost a year, not Wisdom, right? It is [BA] which is still sending propaganda mails to the individuals of Wisdom, not the other way around, right? It was [BA] which constructed whole statements from MOJO (Shinra) and BH (various leaders) to convince Wisdom to side with them against these said tribes, not the other way around, right? It is [BA] which can alter and change it's full diplomacy in less than a month, betraying several allies for various reasons (but it is always the former allies who should take all responsibilities) and side with former "most hated enemies" as it fits them the most, right?
Be a mature and face with the fact that your leader is manipulative, narcistic and absolutely untrustworthy, and you've lost our friendship due to these reasons, not due to imaginary issues or secret master plans. If your leader would be sumo (hypothetically, as he never wanted to lead your family) and Wisdom would have some ethical standards in it's diplomacy, and could have considered us an equal partner for a single minute, not just another big puppet to use for your goals, we could have preserved a good relation. Now you've already lost your creditibility as a diplomatical partner, lost sumos from the aristocracy and there are multiple Wisdom members asking for possible invites or sharing his/her discontent towards your latest actions. I'll maybe just let them all join in, along with the suriviving .xD, HORDE and SABRE members and let [BA] to indeed make it's best to make you crumbled; just to let you realize the difference between pathetic assumptions and hard facts.
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kitex1
Guest
What hard facts?
Still havnt seen any from you in the entire thread.
Still havnt seen any from you in the entire thread.
DeletedUser
Guest
vs
I still consider this statement like a diamond and the perfect example of your creditibility. Please confirm me, kitex, that even twstats proving our only recruit has never been at war with you, the maps, proving you have never had any presence on his K, and the twstats page confirming that we have never recruited anyone else in the whole region are all just pure BS, and none of them can be actually considered as so-called hard facts - while the statement above is true to the last bit. Swan, please also confirm that we were just showing a bit of twstats and therefore it is a weak argument, while, though Wisdom never shown anything to back any of their pathetic statements, they are having the benefit to be automatically right in your eyes without any backing.
Considering Inty's own words about you and your lack of standards (blaming you for the whole xD-100I incident on 100I's part, yes, in forwardable IGMs), I can somewhat understand though if you are having difficulties with differentiating assumptions and propaganda from backed statements.
