Argument Quality on This World

Ziker019

Guest
Stick around,

maybe if we get a better quality of poster to argue against those like myself may be tempted to post more on the politics of the current world

Sadly arguing against some of the current crop is how can I put it delicately ?

Like banging your head against a brick wall.

The politics of this world is diplomacy (imo). An example of that is R.L. They were facing multiple tribes at once (I dont remember how many, anyways, I can count that high XD). They really had no allies. That was their downfall (until Insane happily came along n asked em for a merge). R.L. went from Sane to Insane. Scenario 1 is solved. Now Scenario 2 hasnt found a solution yet (Insane vs Ascend).

Its just a shame that when one posts solid hard facts to prove ones point the poster your arguing against so often overlooks it.

Net result is the best debaters just dont bother. Some folk will believe the earth is flat no matter what you do
When one posts solid hard facts and is overlooked, that's when you threaten :p It's the same thing with merges. You threaten a weaker tribe than yours and threaten. That's really diplomacy.

Just keep on spittin out solid facts and make sure it get's through their thick skull. If for some reason their skull is too thick for a drill to just go right in, you make em fall hard to the ground and say, "How's that dirt taste in your face?!". But if you're arguin with an idiot, you'll lose.
 

Algor1thm

Guest
Just keep on spittin out solid facts and make sure it get's through their thick skull. If for some reason their skull is too thick for a drill to just go right in, you make em fall hard to the ground and say, "How's that dirt taste in your face?!". But if you're arguin with an idiot, you'll lose.
You hit the nail on the head with saying "keep spitting out solid facts." However, when the opposing viewpoints get too intellectually inadequate, it is best to ignore it and let the "fad" blow over.

The whole "u mad bro?" thing was taken from W25. Just look up Jagerblue's posting there and you will find that he had his whole tribe doing it. It was immature, but it worked in bulk and the opposition could do nothing to retaliate. Not quite sure why it was thought it could work here.



blueeyedsandwalker, as I said, here are a few examples of good arguments:
  • http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=132015 - I chose this one because of the Ankaar v Internal Server Error argument that starts on the last post of page 1. One of the more interesting quality arguments I have seen. More famous on W29 were the Shlomzi v Willovain arguments, but as they started off well, after a couple posts, it came down to the two of them calling eachother stupid and using the ':icon_neutral:' face a lot.
  • http://forum.tribalwars.net/showpost.php?p=2411059&postcount=1 - Chose this post by Jagerblue. It was made in response to the flaming of the tribe Kinky on W24. It provides as much fact as possible to show how well Kinky was actually doing. Many people try to make this same argument, that their enemies are nobling inactives, but few go to the extent that Jagerblue did, making the point irrefutable.
  • http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=137817 - For the last one, I thought I would choose something a little more related to yourselves. This troop build discussion is one of the most popular I have seen, and, though I do not care much for the OP, I love the fact that so many of the posts in this thread are well tested and proven in simulation. The arguing in this thread is the best I have seen, and there are many unique builds that are claimed to be best that arguing is abundant.

These are only a few of many, but if you read through them, you will be able to see examples of bad arguments as I described them, and good ones.
 

elrojo

Guest
Yes, the quality of posters here may be poor, I doubt anyone would disagree, but exactly what type of poster are you??

I believe you are somewhere in between pseudo-intelligent poster and troll in which you wish to spice up the conversation by using your thesaurus. Since starting your post you have broken the posting rules twice by using, in the first instance, offensive language and, in the second instance, a sexual reference which was directed at a fellow poster. Please stick to the forum rules.

The amount of new posters (and some old ones) coming out of the woodwork lately, I'm sorry, but you just make yourself out to be another one of those aliases that we've had around here lately.

We all picked up on the fact that you said you "will not be posting here again", why the change of heart?
 

Algor1thm

Guest
Yes, the quality of posters here may be poor, I doubt anyone would disagree, but exactly what type of poster are you??

I believe you are somewhere in between pseudo-intelligent poster and troll in which you wish to spice up the conversation by using your thesaurus. Since starting your post you have broken the posting rules twice by using, in the first instance, offensive language and, in the second instance, a sexual reference which was directed at a fellow poster. Please stick to the forum rules.

The amount of new posters (and some old ones) coming out of the woodwork lately, I'm sorry, but you just make yourself out to be another one of those aliases that we've had around here lately.

We all picked up on the fact that you said you "will not be posting here again", why the change of heart?
To me, the posting "rules" are like guidelines. I don't ever follow them to the fullest extent, and those who expect that should just apply to be moderators. I wont stick to the forum rules; feel free to report me.

If I was one of those aliases, I know in a heartbeat that you would tell me I couldn't post here. I saw you do it before. Regardless if I am "just an alias" or not, I have the right to post just as much as anyone else.

Why am I not qualified to make a statement that relates in no way whatsoever to the ingame play of this world?

I have already explained why I am still posting. To many people on the first page. If you care to read it, you shall find out why.
 

BlaKRaveN

Guest
Haha lousy, yes, but they were funny and served a purpose in being a good PnP tool that was easy for everyone to understand, including those bad with English.

Perhaps you did not like them because in every single one you were somehow being anally raped :icon_razz:?
Ha, ha, just gave yourself away, didn't you? Just knew you had to be PSP or more likely Flowaz Powaz. Not too smart are we, eh?

Who WERE the morons you were referring to? Were they around the time of kev or more current
Take a wild guess:icon_razz: Way I see it, some of them just can't help themselves, LOL.

Anyways, examples you gave of good posting/argument are too general.

First, the debate about the best type of defence and offence build is the kind of discussion where ultimately you use facts to settle the issue (simulator comparing different types of builds and how well they do). So here arguments can be settled based on criteria that people all agree on or adhere to. Atleast they should if they are smart. Mind you, I'm not saying that facts are a matter of consensus or in other words, what makes a fact a fact is agreement between people. Just that in this case you mention, there are objective criteria that allow one to decide which type of offence or defence is best (build time, kill ratio and maybe others?)

Most of the time on the forums the 'debates' (if they can be called that) are PnP between tribes and players that dislike each other because of the politics of the world. The public forums are then used to make PnP and gain sympathy from others and score points against the other side. The forums are also relied on to make sure that the other side don't monopolize them and just put their point across.

Point is here 'facts' as you put it are much harder to identify. Often it comes down to to how you interpret them. Not only that but sometimes it comes down to your tribe and the other tribe, and issues of right or wrong, truth or falsehood, as we usually understand them, don't apply or tend to be ignored.

Also PnP is also often about reputations and perceptions. 'X' has a reputation as a awesome player and awesome PnPer, therefore whatever he/she posts tends to be accepted as the gospel, even though sometimes what they rely on is pure BS and the gullibility of the average reader of the forum. I am not just saying this because I have had experience with crap like this even with one or two of the people you admire so much (posts you quote):icon_razz: I would quote posts to show you what I mean but they would be from a long time ago and I'm kinda busy now, tbh.
 
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Algor1thm

Guest
Ha, ha, just gave yourself away, didn't you? Just knew you had to be PSP or more likely Flowaz Powaz. Not too smart are we, eh?
Not you too :/ I was saying that it was funny and creative. Just because I support one type of PnP that kev did does not mean that I was in his tribe. I support other types of effective PnP on this world, including your "Flowaz Powaz," another type of PnP that is simple yet effective.

Take a wild guess:icon_razz: Way I see it, some of them just can't help themselves, LOL.
I was hoping that out of all the respectable posters I thought would be able to understand my post, you would be the one.

First, the debate about the best type of defence and offence build is the kind of discussion where ultimately you use facts to settle the issue (simulator comparing different types of builds and how well they do). So here arguments can be settled based on criteria that people all agree on or adhere to. Atleast they should if they are smart.
I agree when you say facts are needed to support the argument here, but saying that they are needed to "settle the issue" is where I find you wrong. Offensive/defensive builds are an issue/discussion that will never be settled. There are just too many different builds of defense that would do well against one type of offense and yet do horrible against another.

Point is here 'facts' as you put it are much harder to identify. Often it is how you interpret them. Not only that but sometimes it comes down to your tribe and the other tribe, and issues of right or wrong, truth or falsehood, as we usually understand them, don't apply or tend to be ignored.
Facts are facts, and are not identified by how they are interpreted. They can be skewed, but that is part of the game, and just because one side skews them for themselves does not mean it is wrong. Just point it out that it is fair to skew your facts if the others are skewed. I saw Merrick do this to ASCEND and it worked beautifully. They could not generate an acceptable comeback against it.

To post skewed facts, it is usually a war in terms of who can post their facts more effectively. Waiting until your post will start a new page in a topic is an effective way to sway the public opinion, as I have found.

Also PnP is also often about reputations and perceptions. 'X' has a reputation as a awesome player and awesome PnPer, therefore whatever he/she posts tends to be accepted as the gospel, even though sometimes what they rely on is pure BS and the gullibility of the average reader of the forum. I am not just saying this because I have had experience with crap like this even from one or two of the people you admire so much (posts you quote):icon_razz:
Yes, but even those with a large reputation have built it up somehow, and as hard as it is to be built up, it is way easier to be torn down, requiring a lot of patience. Tending to not get into arguments with big repped players helps, as long as you wait for one slip-up on their part that is obvious to the public. That way you are the one to call them out on it.
 
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AmishGangsta

Guest
You started off well arguing the points with fact-based statements, however it was only a matter of time before you lowered yourself to the level of the opposing posters.

blueyedsandwalker, I would be happy to link you to a few arguments that I consider to be good arguments. There will be flaws in them, yes, but for the most part they are acceptable.
My point was that I had played other worlds. I never claimed to be a good poster. I think most people know I'm a troll :lol:
 

Algor1thm

Guest
My point was that I had played other worlds. I never claimed to be a good poster. I think most people know I'm a troll :lol:
Ugh, the point of the whole "worlds" part was to say that nobody had attempted future worlds. Obviously I dont believe that every person here is on their first world.

I never said you were a good poster, I just gave you a compliment; that's the last time I'll do that if you let it get to your head like that.
 

Webinc

Active Member
Insanes policies on posting on the externals is to be as restrained as possible, TW is often a war of information and appearance and a tribe whose members can reveal as litle about it as possible has the advantage of being an unknown quantity.

I like to think we live by the saying:

One Knife in the dark is worth a thousand Swords at Dawn.
 

Spyro13

Guest
Insanes policies on posting on the externals is to be as restrained as possible, TW is often a war of information and appearance and a tribe whose members can reveal as litle about it as possible has the advantage of being an unknown quantity.

I like to think we live by the saying:

One Knife in the dark is worth a thousand Swords at Dawn.
Your just hiding Insanes crack in its "structure" guess only a handful know about that...
Il wait for your thousand swords to rise :icon_wink:
 

Merrick2

Guest
Your just hiding Insanes crack in its "structure" guess only a handful know about that...
Il wait for your thousand swords to rise :icon_wink:

I think is you who got some crack...

Webinc, aka Oddity515 is my tribe member on this game by what? 4-5 years I think. He knows very well my policy about posting on externals.

You guys love bragging about you´re so good, so shinny, so brave, so strong, so skillfull, and blablablah. Just the last looks like right at the moment, you´re a huge pile of blablablah.



Facts are facts, and are not identified by how they are interpreted. They can be skewed, but that is part of the game, and just because one side skews them for themselves does not mean it is wrong. Just point it out that it is fair to skew your facts if the others are skewed. I saw Merrick do this to ASCEND and it worked beautifully. They could not generate an acceptable comeback against it.
Erm... You saw that Merrick doing what??? I did it? What was that thing I can´t be sure really, but looks like you´re an ASCEND player as you "saw" that. Maybe you "saw" that by reading on externals? As the good PnP poster you think you are, do you think externals reflects the game reality?

Then back to my point of view, as externals DO NOT reflects the in-game reality (just to start, you guys posts we asked RL to join us, when was the opposite, but who cares to argue with trolls...) my policy is really to the whole tribe try stay the more away possible from this foruns. It´s annoying, it´s NOT fun and it´s a big waste of time.

Back to game, 1ns4n3 people, please let the trolls on their playground playing "barbies".
 

Algor1thm

Guest
Erm... You saw that Merrick doing what??? I did it? What was that thing I can´t be sure really, but looks like you´re an ASCEND player as you "saw" that. Maybe you "saw" that by reading on externals? As the good PnP poster you think you are, do you think externals reflects the game reality?
If you had read the previous posts and more in depth into that post you would have seen that I was referring to when you told ASCEND that if they posted skewed stats, you weren't going to tell them not to, but post skewed stats as well. I was giving you a compliment Merrick.

Again, if you had read the thread you can see numerous times that I do not play this world, and never have. I was drawn to this world by my friend in R.L. because of the unique setup of tribes (one owning each quadrant), and I wanted to see how it played out.

I do think the externals have a huge effect on the game. Things are exposed through the externals that raise and lower morale of the tribe. Morale is what keeps activity up, which is what keeps tribes going. The only way you can really beat the externals is by cutting off all access for your tribe members, so they cannot even read it. And let's face it, that will never happen.
 

AmishGangsta

Guest
Ugh, the point of the whole "worlds" part was to say that nobody had attempted future worlds. Obviously I dont believe that every person here is on their first world.
Now, I have noticed one thing throughout the duration of this period, and that is that few (if any) of you play on other worlds. There is a reason that so few of you guys don't play other worlds as well: you would get eaten alive with every argument you tried to make.
For someone who studies the forums like you say do, you should know that your main argument is not one that can be proved as, it's a generalization, and when you generalize it's hard to make an argument out of it. I've still not seen any facts that backup your claim that, players here don't play any future worlds?

You also should know that, if you goto a world you don't play (or even one you do play for that matter), and basically tell the whole world that they are somehow inferior to you or the other worlds you play, 10/10 times you are going to get flamed for it OR, most people are going to assume you have your head in your rear-end.

Fact is, your another odd poster, coming out onto the forums during a time period when 2-3 trolls have been creating accounts and spamming the forums.
If you want to improve the quality around here, you should lead by example, and not add to the long string of odd ball posts coming from players - apparently from other worlds, or from accounts that were created the day they posted.

You are making outlandish claims to bait others into posting. This thread, by definition, is trolling, and if people were to take your advice, you wouldn't have got any responses in this thread.
 

AmishGangsta

Guest
I tried to make a point earlier in the war thread that the fact that no one person can decide if a person's opinion matters or not, but it was met with the usual moronic reply of, "nobody cares what you think." Ironically, that was the type of response I was targetting with my post.
Talk about revisionist history here...

This is what you wrote:

Please speak for yourself when you say his word means nothing. I believe him.
This was the response:

Believe him about what?
He was wondering why you believed him as, everyone and their mother knows the guy was falsely parading around like an SA member. Therefore, which account he owned in SA was relevant to the discussion (at least if he wanted anyone to take him seriously), since that is the claim he made - in which most knew he was lying.

You then run off and create this thread. Like I said, if you want to improve the quality around here, maybe you should start by NOT adding to the collection of strange/odd ball posts.

If you had read the previous posts and more in depth into
To the other two, if you care to actually read the first part of that sentence
Duel pasta, you obviously did not read the second paragraph of my first post
Wow, are you broken record or what? I'm pretty sure most read your post. But your first post wasn't all that clear. Telling someone to re-read your post over and over again is not an argument, it's borderline condescending and down right annoying...
 
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Merrick2

Guest
@ Algor1thm:

Hmmm, don´t misjudge me... I had read all. But, in spite you make some concerns about who´s valid to post on this world foruns, I´m not really going to concern much with a nickname that´s not from a player on any world of TW.net
Maybe if people who wants to be serious start to use in-game nicks to their forum accounts, then more people would reason better what they´re saying. To me you´re still only someone hiding under an alias, no matter what you said against it, you have no proof of yourself on other world as you just don´t exists as a player on the whole server, not just W37.

So, really, I´m passing my view through your concerns as on any other alias of nobody or any other alias of a very well known someone. And really man, coming here to tell that this whole world posters are the worse? You don´t have something else more constructive to do? Really a lot of PnP here are crap annoying, but hell, they´re our posters.
I´m sure if you gets your own world to post you´ll get something more constructive to add on there, good luck!


About compliments on skewed stats, thanks but I don´t need any. I was only telling the other poster that he wasn´t going to rule what I post.

About "if you read..." - that´s one of the more commom things used by trolls. "You not read what I said right! C´mom man, you can do better! Go back and read!"
Not really a smart PnP if this is your discussion point, repetitive by itself and only shows up arrogancy (as the one posting such stuff thinks he´s damn important and every word he writes should be read with doubled attention).

About the externals impact in-game - Of course externals have impact in-game, I never said different. Also I never intended to deny my members to participate of it. They can of course, but I think is better they spend their online time having fun with their friends, and not harassing the enemies on externals, neither being pestered by enemies on externals.

My point is, yeah, externals have influence, much times over lies or misunderstood stuff, or by use of half quotes out of context. So really, to who really wants to play the war game, the battle field, move your little troops and attack someone, the external foruns can be a poison by leading people to mistakes of several kinds.

I know very very well about morale going down to a tribe harassed on externals. I saw that happening before. Funny stuff. A huge tribe used to be cocky and perturb everyone on externals, one day lost their duke and started to get down by several reasons, one of them being perturbed on externals by everyone, as they was making on the past with everyone. That´s what happens with cocky tribes, they perturb all around and don´t hold when gets the come back. Reminds anybody of any W37 stuff? Funny, I was talking about something happened on W8, around 2 years ago.

As I have that experience, and some others too about posting on externals, how much and on what guide lines, and I know the come back of it after some game time, I direct my tribe to "the less the better" & "don´t be cocky".

That experience of not posting much can lead your tribe to some perturbations indeed, as people thinking you had not decent fights only because you not was bragging about any on externals.
W37 is funny. Looks like "some" people think the only good players, good tribes, good leaders and good fights born, live and existed on the southern continent. I tell you, they think that because the northern hemisfere was a very silent zone on externals if compared with the southern one.

Now, it´s the south X north that everyone was waiting for a good time, and look where the big talks skills had lead the southern hemisfere... :)
 

Algor1thm

Guest
Damn good arguments, both of you. My work here is done. Keep it up.
 

Veelox

Guest
Funny?

Does anybody else agree that it is funny that they would have a poll to make a world more conducive to players that are NOT as active? I find this humorous because if they think a poll will accurately show support for this world, well, look at it this way: THE ACTIVE PLAYERS ARE THE ONES VOTING. hahaha just thought it would be worth my two cents.
 

AmishGangsta

Guest
I remember during my HP days, everyone on the forums would be begging for the rounds to end for 6-8 months. They would then go into the world, setup a poll, and ask who wanted a restart. All the new players who had just spent their money would vote for the round to continue, most of those people voting had just joined. The world was over, and they didn't have a chance in hell at survival. It was frustrating. ...and we'd go around and hunt down the ones voting for the world to continue :D
 
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