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Since it means soooooo much to a couple PnP fella's out there, (and since the Decide thread has been littered with this off topic debate), I decide to give Gicusan and Badlapje what they wanted.
Not So Fine Print:
[spoil]I have left out anything not directly related to my debate. What others have said to each other, and myself, that is not related to this debate, is moot in my eyes. If anyone disagrees with this, feel free to post your opinions. You have my permission. :icon_razz: Further, I will be the first to admit that this is my opinion on what has occurred. If anyone wants an unbiased perspective, go back and read it yourselves. I highly condone this. Finally, this took some time, so pardon any grammatical flaws, or in some cases, where I may have inefficaciously expressed my intended views. (Lord knows, you are condemned to believe what others interpret. :icon_rolleyes
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Here is my retort:
Cue Also Sprach Zarathustra
1. I mentioned that an attack by THE right now would seem opportunistic, but should they launch, they would still retain much of my appreciate for their tribe. It was at this point that the debate truly began. as it was this point that inspired gicu's response.
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2. Gicusan accused Decide of backstabbing because we broke an agreement. He indicates that when he gets the chance, he and some other BD members will attack as a result.
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3. I am informed that a player is under attack by BD. This player is not Acvenne (the refugee in question).
(Outside of PnP)
4. I respond to Gicusan quite calmly, calling him out on his blatant lie about us breaking an agreement, and mentioning for the first time the attacks I was told of. Notice at the end of this post I am clear that I am standing for myself, when I state that I will post war stats either with or without Decide blessings. Why would I need to state that if I have their blessings as a representative to begin with?
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5. Gicusan uses the next post both drop BD's name as a tribe from the conversation, and to try to antagonize me, which he later admits to, over my original post.
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6. Fair enough, he wants me to drop subtlety, I do. Further, I remind him that he threw a bogus charge at Decide; that it is common TW philosophy, and just plain logical to consider it a BD attack when several BD members attack; and finally, I tell him my opinions of BD's timingone he tries to dodge, thus sparking this infamous debate.
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And then add this afterward:
7. Gicusan goes to support his accusation of Decide breaking an agreement; state subtely that he thinks I represent my tribe, because I am under the impression that he represents his; that he is unaware of the attacks on Decide, and calls me paranoid, a hypocrite, and twisted as a result of my reasoning.
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8. I address his points individually, expressing that I never said I was unaware of it (I had actually stated the opposite), nor am I even debating if or if not Acvenne is a refugee; I press the fact that he accused Decide with a bogus charge; I address the fact that he ignored the timing of the attacks (Again, I was under the impression we were being attacked); I see him as being the first to jump the gun, and clearly state it, though BD later tries to accuse me of doing this; I clearly state that I have no idea where he stands with his tribe, though I have, throughout the entire thread, been open about myself.
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9. Badlapje joins the debate, he treid to lead my debate as if I am defending a refugee. He will continue to do this with the rest of his debates; He is totally correct when he mentions a cross nobling with one of our players (In bold, also the source of the confusion on my part); he begins his pattern of trying to associate myself to Decide; He tries to associate my debate with Gicu to DN, and further tries to make us look like we were jumping the gun.
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10. Gicusan indicates he never reads such long posts as my most recent (indicating he does not have a clear picture of what I am saying); he expresses the BD philosophy, which is to attack everything when it best serves them.
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11. I discover that the player that told me he was under attack had exagerated the situation, and that it was under control. I openly admit to being wrong then, about the attacks on that player (note: that player, while unnamed - was never Acvenne, I was very clear about that); After a poke at Gicu, I admit my mistake, but continue to press that my logic is sound. Had they been attacking us, I would still feel the same way; I make some comments on the voyeristic nature of the PnP, and state that all sides could be accused at jumping at what spawned as a debate with Gicusan.
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12. Badlapje comes back to continue his misdirection of the debate, twisting my mention of an attack from the actual player to the refugee, then trying to use this different concept to discredit the war with Green; makes a generalized statement about BD expanding where and when they want; again he tries to state I was defending a refugee, when I wasn't; he tries to associate me as representing Decide; and claims I was "proven" wrong about the misinformation, which was also not true (nothing was proven in the debate).
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13. I respond to Badlapje in an attempt to clear up his off track assault on me. I explain I was never defending Acvenne, nor refering to her when I was speaking of BD attacking; I indicate that, to the best of my knowledge, DN were attacking refugees, though they had strayed to Toasta, and that I didn't see it as the same as BD attacking Decide now, of all times (at this point defending my logic to begin with, had BD truly been attacking us); I question the logic of being able to claim whatever whenever, as I do see that as being opportunistic (one of two ways BD have been considered such during my debates); most of his debate is grounded on the false idea that I was defending a refugee, and I reference that; I further reiterate that I do not represent Decide as any kind of official (I'm just a fan at this point); I question his motives for twisting my debate (he never responds to this, though I repeat the quation later).
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14. Gicusan jumps in, claiming he didn't really read it, but claims that Bad's arguements were sound and then goes on to repeat some things Bad had already said.
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15. I respond by disagreeing that Bad has sound arguements, since he was arguing against something that I was never saying to begin with; I reiterate that I had already said it clearly in the past, and am surprised how Bad could be so confused about what Gicu and I had been debating; I prove that Gicusan was aware that I had left Decide's leadership and that I was quitting; I express that I do appreciate Gicusan and do not like the fact that what started as a debate had turned into a conflict.
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16. Gicusan responds, stating it was inapropriate to use that message; he indicates he still feels that I represent my tribe, and says to stop it in hopes to let another Decide member step up.
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17. I agree that I should have consulted him about the mail, accept fault and appologize; I try to reiterate what I am doing with the debate, in hopes to be clear of my position by reiterating being wrong about the attacks, but stating that at that point, what was really being attacked was my honor and loyalty, and so long as it would be pressed, I would stand up for myself in the way I believe is right; I reiterate that no official of Decide has gotten involved because it has nothing to do with Decide's views, it is mine, and had been from the start. I was defending decide like a football fan would defend his team. Again, if my aggresors would let it go, I was fine with that (I thought that was what Gicu was asking of me).
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18. Badlapje returns, once more persisting that I am debating something that I am not; He throws things that TT and ChamichA said at me, and then throw the fact that I mentioned the name Acvenne at me (entirely out of context) to support his deluded debate; He asks the attacked player's name (I find this information redundant, as whether he has a name or not, I was clear from the start that I wasn't speaking of Acvenne); he takes an old post before this debate started eniterly out of context, one I explained clearly to Mick876; He accuses me of blanket statements (which I find hypocritical, given the nature of his debate); He actually confused me with a couple points; He twists the intention of my words to try to support the idea that I am some representative of Decide, again, out of context; he reiterates it a couple times and ends it with his evaluation of my point, ending with a very clear question, to which I can simply answer:
"I never mentioned any circumstance of BD attacking Acvenne, only the timing that BD would have taken had they begun an attack on Decide. After all, if BD wanted to attack their refugee, there would be no need to wait until we were at war to start. DN did not wait until Green were at war with anyone. Nevertheless, allow me to reiterate, that was NEVER my point. Simply put, you are fighting ghosts."
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19. Seeing Bad's strategy as an obvious smokescreen from the original debate to begin with, I see no reason to entertain his off track arguements. Having nothing to hide, I clearly inform him that I disagree with him; that he is persisting to thrust an arguement in my mouth I never had any part of; and that as far as I was concerned, I had expressed my points clearly. I go on to prove I have nothing to hide by telling everyone to make their own opinions, not just take Bad'a, or my own as gospel. I reiterate that I do not represent Decide. (Get the sense where they want me to keep repeating myself?)
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20. Badlapje responds with a slew of discrediting slurs and insults, no doubt attempting to sway me into reponding to his fake arguements. He repeatedly refers to me as a liar, and underhandedly insults my integrity.
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21. I respond by once mroe questioning his motives. I responded in a very clear, level headed manner, and he bursts into an attack. I tell him I see it as ridiculous and as a result, that he has lost my respect for it. Further, I question his motives to press me into continueing the debate, one I see as being nothing more than "a pointless argument over the "true" meaning of my words, so that you can further have the opportunity to table feed them your own perspective." Particularly on a debate I was never even having to begin with.
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22. Gicusan does not like this. He accuses me of pointing the finger (I found this amusing myself); claims that he read Bad's post, and has based his opinion on this.
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23. I inform Gicu that in my eyes, I did respond to him, when he first attacked me and I tried to ecplain how off track he was. When I realized he intended to be off traxck, I realized "its a tarp!!1!" and said no thanks, let the world make up its own mind. I inform Gicu that he should read everything to base an opinion, something he has openly stated he has not done.
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24. Gicusan responds that he does not really read big posts, and him being uninformed is my fault; he calls my recent posts as both lies and shit; He goes into Bad's points of "if they are gangbanging, how can it be wrong if we gangbang" which was never my point (my point being their timing being opportunistic, timing never mentioned here); He mentions attacks on a refugee (another point I was never getting at) and mentions a cross nobling (something addressed waaaaay back a there); he indicates Bad and his motives as being the simple question of why we are jumpy (given that all I can see is me defending my opinions, I find this amusing, particularly as I have kept a good cool this entire debate); he concludes that my recent posts as "low" PnP tactics.
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So what does this mean? If I had anything to hide, and wasn't willing to admit a flaw (something I have proven willing to do twice during this debate), then logically, I would try to hide the truth from people via misdirection and further debates. Yet I haven't. I have told people to make up their own minds, and they know where to go for the source material, which is what they should be reading and basing their opinions on to begin with.
In closing, my official stance:
In retrospect, when I heard that Decide was getting hit, I thought it was ridiculous for its timing. I wasn't scared for Decide, but it was certainly a low move in my eyes. So I posted what I thought. When I found out that the information was exaggerated, then I was certainly pissed at a certain Decide player, lol! But I was wrong to take it how I did, I admit that. In any event, I was expressing it how I saw it. I see nothing wrong with BD attacking Acvenne, as I personally do think she is their refugee, but that's not Decide, that is me. We disagree there, as well as we do on a few other subjects. I do think to wait until Decide were at war to attack them (non Acvenne) would seem opportunistic, given the reason being over a refugee, as there was plenty of time to do it before hand. If others don't see it as opportunistic, then that is their prerogative. If I gave the sense that attacking Acvenne now would be opportunistic, then I take that back, because it would not be. As for what is happening with DN, they went after their refugees, as was their right, but for Green to attack them, that pissed me off. That was one of the reasons why I said what I said before about DN declaring, Decide will never get the credit it deserves for Green, and it deserves it in my opinion. I do see a difference in the way BD views Decide, and how Decide views Green for potential war (and planning for such), so I do think that there is a difference between what I am saying, and what Bad and Gicu are saying. I also know for a fact that I do not represent Decide, and whether people want to attribute my opinions to them or not, I can't help that, but I will say this: I believe BD has every right to war Decide. If BD wanted to war Decide without me frowning upon it, all they'd have to do is wait a couple weeks. I would not call it opportunistic to attack while Decide are just at war; but I would if they were attacked within just a matter of days after said war begun. Same for THE. That's my opinion, not Decide's.
That is where I stand, and if this has to continue, then bring your boots fellas, cuzz the further this debate goes, the deeper the dung.
Not So Fine Print:
[spoil]I have left out anything not directly related to my debate. What others have said to each other, and myself, that is not related to this debate, is moot in my eyes. If anyone disagrees with this, feel free to post your opinions. You have my permission. :icon_razz: Further, I will be the first to admit that this is my opinion on what has occurred. If anyone wants an unbiased perspective, go back and read it yourselves. I highly condone this. Finally, this took some time, so pardon any grammatical flaws, or in some cases, where I may have inefficaciously expressed my intended views. (Lord knows, you are condemned to believe what others interpret. :icon_rolleyes
[/spoil]Here is my retort:
Cue Also Sprach Zarathustra
1. I mentioned that an attack by THE right now would seem opportunistic, but should they launch, they would still retain much of my appreciate for their tribe. It was at this point that the debate truly began. as it was this point that inspired gicu's response.
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[/spoil]Lol! It has been fun JP, and as always, you are indeed one tough cookie out here.
Having said that, a few closing points of my own:
I don't know how effective I'd be at demanding a leader to resign, but for the life of me, I can't imagine why I would. Decide's current leadership is actually performing better than even I expected!
As for Green, they are fighting back. Think of it this way: those stats don't reflect how poorly Green are performing. They reflect how efficient Decide truly is. :icon_cool:
And for the record, the post about THE potentially attacking Decide was a personal opinion not shared by Decide. I simply see it as a good time to strike, while Decide and her allies are distracted elsewhere, particularly with BD having an opening as well. While there are other, less opportunistic directions THE and BD alike could take, for THE to wait, the Green war could very well give Decide a potential advantage down the road (unless it is a race to the rim, that would be fun :icon_wink
Further, I love THE, I do. Its an awesome tribe. As such, if I seem a bit... eager... it is because I enjoy the challenge (in PnP's and game), and honor fighting good enemies, but again, this is just me. If I imparted the sense that this at all came from Decide, I apologize. And while THE would lose some respect from me if it did, in fact, attack us soon, I would still consider it as being one of the best tribes I have seen to date, and certainly a pleasant challenge.
Finally, as for that video, I really did like it, and do hope to see more.
2. Gicusan accused Decide of backstabbing because we broke an agreement. He indicates that when he gets the chance, he and some other BD members will attack as a result.
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3. I am informed that a player is under attack by BD. This player is not Acvenne (the refugee in question).
(Outside of PnP)
4. I respond to Gicusan quite calmly, calling him out on his blatant lie about us breaking an agreement, and mentioning for the first time the attacks I was told of. Notice at the end of this post I am clear that I am standing for myself, when I state that I will post war stats either with or without Decide blessings. Why would I need to state that if I have their blessings as a representative to begin with?
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5. Gicusan uses the next post both drop BD's name as a tribe from the conversation, and to try to antagonize me, which he later admits to, over my original post.
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6. Fair enough, he wants me to drop subtlety, I do. Further, I remind him that he threw a bogus charge at Decide; that it is common TW philosophy, and just plain logical to consider it a BD attack when several BD members attack; and finally, I tell him my opinions of BD's timingone he tries to dodge, thus sparking this infamous debate.
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And then add this afterward:
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7. Gicusan goes to support his accusation of Decide breaking an agreement; state subtely that he thinks I represent my tribe, because I am under the impression that he represents his; that he is unaware of the attacks on Decide, and calls me paranoid, a hypocrite, and twisted as a result of my reasoning.
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[/spoil]You are paranoid. I am sure your close boys are uneasy sleeping at night bordering BD but there is no war here. On the other hand, if you want an war, you are welcomed and I am sure we can do something about it.
Anyway, the recruit and the deal. In the end that is a problem between you and me as I understand. You talked a lot about how you are not a leader in your tribe lately. I am not a duke also. But my word is the word of our tribe. Just a short addenda, I talked to you about it 2 weeks ago or something so do not be an hipocryte on top of things and say this is the first time you hear about that recruit.
BD is not a tribe like yours or like many others. Here the players have free will to attack whenever they want, whomever they want but THE. That is why I have no idea who is attacking you and I do not care to check. Who is doing that has our trust and I am sure he knows what he is doing. Again, BD is not attacking your tribe yet.
You have a twisted mind so you think about too many schemes. Sorry. Only scheme here is that I put my opinion in your and JP convo and added some spices to test the waters. Funny results
8. I address his points individually, expressing that I never said I was unaware of it (I had actually stated the opposite), nor am I even debating if or if not Acvenne is a refugee; I press the fact that he accused Decide with a bogus charge; I address the fact that he ignored the timing of the attacks (Again, I was under the impression we were being attacked); I see him as being the first to jump the gun, and clearly state it, though BD later tries to accuse me of doing this; I clearly state that I have no idea where he stands with his tribe, though I have, throughout the entire thread, been open about myself.
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9. Badlapje joins the debate, he treid to lead my debate as if I am defending a refugee. He will continue to do this with the rest of his debates; He is totally correct when he mentions a cross nobling with one of our players (In bold, also the source of the confusion on my part); he begins his pattern of trying to associate myself to Decide; He tries to associate my debate with Gicu to DN, and further tries to make us look like we were jumping the gun.
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10. Gicusan indicates he never reads such long posts as my most recent (indicating he does not have a clear picture of what I am saying); he expresses the BD philosophy, which is to attack everything when it best serves them.
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11. I discover that the player that told me he was under attack had exagerated the situation, and that it was under control. I openly admit to being wrong then, about the attacks on that player (note: that player, while unnamed - was never Acvenne, I was very clear about that); After a poke at Gicu, I admit my mistake, but continue to press that my logic is sound. Had they been attacking us, I would still feel the same way; I make some comments on the voyeristic nature of the PnP, and state that all sides could be accused at jumping at what spawned as a debate with Gicusan.
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[/spoil]Mmmmm... this is shmexy! :icon_smile:
While I'd love to post a massive spiel to respond to everything, (and probably will make a big one anyway, cuzz that's how I roll) I hear Gicu has a hard time reading, and wouldn't want him to feel left out. (tease.
So I'll try to keep this short.
@ BD and DN:
I was informed that we did have incommings to multiple players. As it turns out, the player that informed us of this was posting inaccurate information. Acting on this faulty information, I am the one in the wrong and apologize for the confusion. Make of it what you will.
My mistake was grounded on misinformation, and I can certainly be flamed for that. But my reasoning was not unsound. I have clearly expressed the logical way to view this information, given the convenient timing with Gicu's post, and likewise with the reasoning of how legitimate of a voice he is for the tribe, all coupled with common Tribal Wars philosophy.
Nevertheless, even that point was exacerbated by Gicu's responses. The primary focus of my concerns spawned largely in response to our honor being thrown unreasonably into question. Further, not once did I debate the validation of a supposed refugee. You can go back and verify if you like.
We did not break any agreement, and unless Gicu can prove otherwise, then its still a groundless assault on my tribe's integrity.
So again, I will take full blame for word of the attacks, but I will continue to stand by the fact that our tribe has not yet, and will not go against an agreement. As for the refugee, I have not said anything to argue or debate the matter, merely to point out that Gicu's defense conveniently shifted from the attack on our honor to that point.
@ Templarz: First, I agree with you, sort of, regarding the value of the PnP.
There are only two purposes for PnP at this stage in the game: 1. to entertain the aggressive and assholes alike, and 2. to intimidate tribes into quitting, which is, as was said before, the only real practical way to win a war.
Also, @ Badlap as well as Temp: If it seems as though there has been any jumping at this situation, it strikes me as coming mostly from the mass of outsiders that has joined the fray. Decide and DN are not the only tribe throwing rhetoric blows and jumping to post. Personally, I would see this more as a repressed strain between other tribes manifesting on our thread. For myself, I would not have thought I, at any point, jumped any gun, but that is my opinion.
Still, there is something to be said about twisting the situation for personal agendas. And we all know that that is indeed what the PnP is all about. It is politics in training. :icon_wink:
12. Badlapje comes back to continue his misdirection of the debate, twisting my mention of an attack from the actual player to the refugee, then trying to use this different concept to discredit the war with Green; makes a generalized statement about BD expanding where and when they want; again he tries to state I was defending a refugee, when I wasn't; he tries to associate me as representing Decide; and claims I was "proven" wrong about the misinformation, which was also not true (nothing was proven in the debate).
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13. I respond to Badlapje in an attempt to clear up his off track assault on me. I explain I was never defending Acvenne, nor refering to her when I was speaking of BD attacking; I indicate that, to the best of my knowledge, DN were attacking refugees, though they had strayed to Toasta, and that I didn't see it as the same as BD attacking Decide now, of all times (at this point defending my logic to begin with, had BD truly been attacking us); I question the logic of being able to claim whatever whenever, as I do see that as being opportunistic (one of two ways BD have been considered such during my debates); most of his debate is grounded on the false idea that I was defending a refugee, and I reference that; I further reiterate that I do not represent Decide as any kind of official (I'm just a fan at this point); I question his motives for twisting my debate (he never responds to this, though I repeat the quation later).
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14. Gicusan jumps in, claiming he didn't really read it, but claims that Bad's arguements were sound and then goes on to repeat some things Bad had already said.
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15. I respond by disagreeing that Bad has sound arguements, since he was arguing against something that I was never saying to begin with; I reiterate that I had already said it clearly in the past, and am surprised how Bad could be so confused about what Gicu and I had been debating; I prove that Gicusan was aware that I had left Decide's leadership and that I was quitting; I express that I do appreciate Gicusan and do not like the fact that what started as a debate had turned into a conflict.
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[/spoil]@ Gicusan:
His arguments aren't sound, if you read over what I have written, or were unbiased perhaps, you would have noticed this. Further, it is redundant to bring anything new when my past posts are solid facts. As for answering where you are in the tribe, a little late, as it is now irrelevant, and Bad already made that clear.
For the record, you knew first hand that I had stepped down and away from the tribe, as well as the fact that I was quitting the game, having had that conversation with me via PM in game. So while some may simply be deluded in selectively perceiving where I stand with Decide, you cannot share this excuse.
Anyway, its a shame you and I have been at each other as we have. It seems this was not so much a debate as a confrontation. I really do not think lowly of you in any way Gicu, but I must defend what I see and feel is right.
Further, for the record, I have been here doing what I said I would, which is declare and wear my shirt, but I am not even playing the game anymore (I gave my account away), so people can push that I am the voice of Decide all they want, it is simply not true.
16. Gicusan responds, stating it was inapropriate to use that message; he indicates he still feels that I represent my tribe, and says to stop it in hopes to let another Decide member step up.
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17. I agree that I should have consulted him about the mail, accept fault and appologize; I try to reiterate what I am doing with the debate, in hopes to be clear of my position by reiterating being wrong about the attacks, but stating that at that point, what was really being attacked was my honor and loyalty, and so long as it would be pressed, I would stand up for myself in the way I believe is right; I reiterate that no official of Decide has gotten involved because it has nothing to do with Decide's views, it is mine, and had been from the start. I was defending decide like a football fan would defend his team. Again, if my aggresors would let it go, I was fine with that (I thought that was what Gicu was asking of me).
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18. Badlapje returns, once more persisting that I am debating something that I am not; He throws things that TT and ChamichA said at me, and then throw the fact that I mentioned the name Acvenne at me (entirely out of context) to support his deluded debate; He asks the attacked player's name (I find this information redundant, as whether he has a name or not, I was clear from the start that I wasn't speaking of Acvenne); he takes an old post before this debate started eniterly out of context, one I explained clearly to Mick876; He accuses me of blanket statements (which I find hypocritical, given the nature of his debate); He actually confused me with a couple points; He twists the intention of my words to try to support the idea that I am some representative of Decide, again, out of context; he reiterates it a couple times and ends it with his evaluation of my point, ending with a very clear question, to which I can simply answer:
"I never mentioned any circumstance of BD attacking Acvenne, only the timing that BD would have taken had they begun an attack on Decide. After all, if BD wanted to attack their refugee, there would be no need to wait until we were at war to start. DN did not wait until Green were at war with anyone. Nevertheless, allow me to reiterate, that was NEVER my point. Simply put, you are fighting ghosts."
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[/spoil]really, you were? Then why was only his name mentioned? I just combed through this entire thread. I found not a single other name. Not one.
1. TT bringing up how we're attacking DECIDE
2. TT yet again
3. this guy is on fire
do note that up to there no names are mentioned. But wait ... what happens now?
4. Chamica bringing up the player in question.
5. (note: i added bold)
Yup, that's you running with the Acvenne name. I went through all your posts and found a couple more where you mentioned Acvenne. Not once did you mention another player. Given that you already apologised for reacting on misinformation that BD was launching widespread attacks on DECIDE: please do tell what player you're talking about then if it's not Acvenne?
So DN aren't attacking Green, they are attacking refugees in Green. Let's see how this particular topic was covered earlier in this thread shall we?
1. Pure loonanimus (from DN) admits they're attacking and that refugees make up a large part of GREEN. He does so in this post.
2. Liquid C, not in a hurry to declare war but clearly stating entire Ks of refugees adding to the feeling that DN might as well declare on them instead of beating around the bush.
3. Atraeus (yup, you) agreeing with that assessment.
I could quote more but i guess you get the general feeling here?
So yah, i guess you're right. It is not the same situation by far. Whilst you had to admit you were wrong in accusing BD of attacking DECIDE ... you yourself agree that DN might as well declare on GREEN and get it over with. From what the various DN posters in this thread have said, they pretty much feel the same.
Of course, you already know all of this. That's why you're just making blanket statements such as "waaaaah, you're ignoring circumstances" and "waaaah, i was referring to another unrelated player". Actually referring where you found the info, what player(s) you are talking about and sticking to your point would be to hard, given it'd mean you're making the same argument i am.
Glad you agree with me. Of course, it was exactly the same as your point about DECIDE, GREEN and [DN], but carefully looking past that with a nice smiley next to it can indeed fool people. Good job! Next time i'll put it in sarcasm tags so you don't get it quite so easy to beat around the bush.
I didn't, i merely asked you to back up what the difference is between what we are doing and what [DN] is doing. I see no argument in your entire post to rationalise why it's a "weak" or "low" move from BD but not when your allies do so (or you yourself in fact).
Abundantly clear indeed you do not want to name the player in question, but you did mention Acvenne's name several times.
yes you did make it clear. In this thread you are pretty much the only one who's representing DECIDE. Sure there's the odd member posting here and there, but you are clearly the spokesmen for DECIDE on the PnP. I admit, it's a crazy notion that the guy answering all questions/concerns/allegations/random contributions is a spokesman for a tribe. Especially when he has been representing DECIDE on the forums for quite some time now. And doubly so when he makes a post like this:
Notice the bolded parts. You are saying you are here to defend Decide against its antagonists on this thread. By the request of the leadership. So yeah, i consider you part of the leadership. Even inactive, you are by far more a leader of decide on the pnp then anyone else.
True, you didn't. But you did say you wouldn't have time for it but put on the team jacket because they asked it. Hence my deduction it was against your wishes, my apologies on this count then.
as i pointed out above, you said it first
No you're not. You are making a case which if the tables were turned you wouldn't make at all. Not in private and not out loud. You have been vocal on a number of occasions on these forums about refugees. Not once did you say that there's a certain time-frame within which one needs to attack those refugees to make sure they don't lose the refugee status. Quite the opposite in fact. You ignored that part of my post full-out of course, when i presented you with hard facts (with a link so you can check with ease the validity of the facts) that the refugees from -O- over which [DN] is attacking GREEN members were in the same situation as acvenne is with BD (wel, we got more caps on acvenne prior to him switching tribes but no biggie there). So please do shed some light on this: what is the special circumstance that makes it so bad for BD to be attacking acvenne (or any other ex-MF members)? Why is he not a refugee?
See, i'm a nice guy. I've even underlined the question (which i also posed in my previous post) so you won't "overlook" it :icon_wink:
19. Seeing Bad's strategy as an obvious smokescreen from the original debate to begin with, I see no reason to entertain his off track arguements. Having nothing to hide, I clearly inform him that I disagree with him; that he is persisting to thrust an arguement in my mouth I never had any part of; and that as far as I was concerned, I had expressed my points clearly. I go on to prove I have nothing to hide by telling everyone to make their own opinions, not just take Bad'a, or my own as gospel. I reiterate that I do not represent Decide. (Get the sense where they want me to keep repeating myself?)
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20. Badlapje responds with a slew of discrediting slurs and insults, no doubt attempting to sway me into reponding to his fake arguements. He repeatedly refers to me as a liar, and underhandedly insults my integrity.
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21. I respond by once mroe questioning his motives. I responded in a very clear, level headed manner, and he bursts into an attack. I tell him I see it as ridiculous and as a result, that he has lost my respect for it. Further, I question his motives to press me into continueing the debate, one I see as being nothing more than "a pointless argument over the "true" meaning of my words, so that you can further have the opportunity to table feed them your own perspective." Particularly on a debate I was never even having to begin with.
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22. Gicusan does not like this. He accuses me of pointing the finger (I found this amusing myself); claims that he read Bad's post, and has based his opinion on this.
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23. I inform Gicu that in my eyes, I did respond to him, when he first attacked me and I tried to ecplain how off track he was. When I realized he intended to be off traxck, I realized "its a tarp!!1!" and said no thanks, let the world make up its own mind. I inform Gicu that he should read everything to base an opinion, something he has openly stated he has not done.
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24. Gicusan responds that he does not really read big posts, and him being uninformed is my fault; he calls my recent posts as both lies and shit; He goes into Bad's points of "if they are gangbanging, how can it be wrong if we gangbang" which was never my point (my point being their timing being opportunistic, timing never mentioned here); He mentions attacks on a refugee (another point I was never getting at) and mentions a cross nobling (something addressed waaaaay back a there); he indicates Bad and his motives as being the simple question of why we are jumpy (given that all I can see is me defending my opinions, I find this amusing, particularly as I have kept a good cool this entire debate); he concludes that my recent posts as "low" PnP tactics.
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So what does this mean? If I had anything to hide, and wasn't willing to admit a flaw (something I have proven willing to do twice during this debate), then logically, I would try to hide the truth from people via misdirection and further debates. Yet I haven't. I have told people to make up their own minds, and they know where to go for the source material, which is what they should be reading and basing their opinions on to begin with.
In closing, my official stance:
In retrospect, when I heard that Decide was getting hit, I thought it was ridiculous for its timing. I wasn't scared for Decide, but it was certainly a low move in my eyes. So I posted what I thought. When I found out that the information was exaggerated, then I was certainly pissed at a certain Decide player, lol! But I was wrong to take it how I did, I admit that. In any event, I was expressing it how I saw it. I see nothing wrong with BD attacking Acvenne, as I personally do think she is their refugee, but that's not Decide, that is me. We disagree there, as well as we do on a few other subjects. I do think to wait until Decide were at war to attack them (non Acvenne) would seem opportunistic, given the reason being over a refugee, as there was plenty of time to do it before hand. If others don't see it as opportunistic, then that is their prerogative. If I gave the sense that attacking Acvenne now would be opportunistic, then I take that back, because it would not be. As for what is happening with DN, they went after their refugees, as was their right, but for Green to attack them, that pissed me off. That was one of the reasons why I said what I said before about DN declaring, Decide will never get the credit it deserves for Green, and it deserves it in my opinion. I do see a difference in the way BD views Decide, and how Decide views Green for potential war (and planning for such), so I do think that there is a difference between what I am saying, and what Bad and Gicu are saying. I also know for a fact that I do not represent Decide, and whether people want to attribute my opinions to them or not, I can't help that, but I will say this: I believe BD has every right to war Decide. If BD wanted to war Decide without me frowning upon it, all they'd have to do is wait a couple weeks. I would not call it opportunistic to attack while Decide are just at war; but I would if they were attacked within just a matter of days after said war begun. Same for THE. That's my opinion, not Decide's.
That is where I stand, and if this has to continue, then bring your boots fellas, cuzz the further this debate goes, the deeper the dung.
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