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For months now, the tribe [RIM] sat in it's lonely little edge of the world and quietly warred with the local tribes. Not impressive. Not brave. Not exciting.
We have had nothing to say for ourselves since the beginning of our forming. An entirely uninteresting and untested tribe in dire need of a good scrap. Inaction in the past and present leads to inactivity in the future. We could not sit by and let the world shape around us without taking a good bite into it ourselves, and thus NoHaul was born.
http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=242974
Ladies and gentlemen, the above topic was (for the most part) a load of horse poop. We knew we had only two viable choices to succeed - Go to war with OHYEAH, or go to war with Haul. A war with either side yielded individual advantages, and the subject was hotly debated for a short time.
It is maybe, or maybe not, common knowledge that [RIM] formed an NAP with both tribes earlier on in the world. We've had dealings with leaders of both tribes, old and new. On a very base level it's clear that Haul have not taken their diplomacy with other tribes seriously, and they are not beyond using bullying tactics to try and get their way. Recent events outlined that all too well:
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[SPOIL]
And a second topic was made...
[SPOIL]
And then we had said discussion over Skype:
[SPOIL]
^ To be honest, towards the end, I just got tired of arguing and wanted to get rid of him =/
The above topics are unedited, and the only things edited out of the Skype chat was mindless chitchat. Bigjay and I had a rather intense conversation about tacos which didn't really need to be in there. I also put colour into the Skype quotes to make it easier to read :s
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Whatever you took from the above quotes, all you need to know is that Haul and NoHaul do not get along. For that, and other reasons, we declare war on Haul!
Good luck to all.
P.S.
I realise that none of you are going to read much of the above declaration, and that works for me! I only had 30 minutes to knock it together because the guy who was supposed to write it ducked out :|
I ask that for this topic, pay extra special attention to my sig. Please.
We have had nothing to say for ourselves since the beginning of our forming. An entirely uninteresting and untested tribe in dire need of a good scrap. Inaction in the past and present leads to inactivity in the future. We could not sit by and let the world shape around us without taking a good bite into it ourselves, and thus NoHaul was born.
http://forum.tribalwars.net/showthread.php?t=242974
Ladies and gentlemen, the above topic was (for the most part) a load of horse poop. We knew we had only two viable choices to succeed - Go to war with OHYEAH, or go to war with Haul. A war with either side yielded individual advantages, and the subject was hotly debated for a short time.
It is maybe, or maybe not, common knowledge that [RIM] formed an NAP with both tribes earlier on in the world. We've had dealings with leaders of both tribes, old and new. On a very base level it's clear that Haul have not taken their diplomacy with other tribes seriously, and they are not beyond using bullying tactics to try and get their way. Recent events outlined that all too well:
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[SPOIL]
[/SPOIL]
And a second topic was made...
[SPOIL]
[/SPOIL]Haul! - The Bailliff on 25.09.2011 at 11:30
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so the excuse for attacking my morale basher was " we did`nt know they were your basher tribe" and we don`t have a nap with them" even though i made bird aware of the issues he has continued to attack this player, i`m now retaking the villages, and i expect our leadership to have something to say.
NoHaul - Kustard King on 25.09.2011 at 15:23
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NoHaul does not have an NAP with BASAG.
When Bigjay, or a representative of BASAG, is ready to mail me about it and request that an NAP is set up, then we will have a reason to stop attacking.
Having said that, attacking NoHaul members and taking villages from them is breaking the NAP that actually does exist between Haul! and NoHaul. I would expect you to stop immediately and repay any damages done to my tribe.
Haul! - The Bailliff on 25.09.2011 at 15:30
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you`re being pig headed, your tribe mate has taken villages which belong to me or my basher which ever i decide, not your tribe, you all know full and well who and what basag is and what they are to us, i see it you are breaking condition not me. i will of course continue,to recap villages as and when i see fit
NoHaul - Kustard King on 25.09.2011 at 15:37
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Our NAP does not extend to BASAG.
Read it. Absorb it. Understand it. Do something about this particular point. I'm waiting on that mail.
In the meantime, I advise you sit on your thumbs and wait it out. If you continue to attack, we will defend. If you still do not stop, you will have to bare the consequences of those actions.
Haul! - The Bailliff on 25.09.2011 at 15:49
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bird has stolen villages beonging to me, one way or another they will be returned. you can do it the nice way or the hard way, but one way or another you need to absorb the fact those villages belong and will continue to belong to me
NoHaul - Kustard King on 25.09.2011 at 16:14
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Yeah, you're not going to bully us into this.
Now can someone more reasonable take over the discussions. I can't help but feel that Bailliff is somewhat biased about this.
Haul! - Futzi123 on 25.09.2011 at 16:36
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BASAG are basically a part of Haul!. You guys are aware of this fact, and if basag lost a few villas to you guys, no harm done. But we expect them to be returned, without any bitchin' about it. Let's keep this nice and clean, whoever continues these attacks will have to face the pure consequenses of those actions. I ain't bullying here, actually just quoting you there Kustard
Nothing personal or anything like it. But you know - we're protecting our own.
NoHaul - Kustard King on 25.09.2011 at 16:48
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The NAP was set between Haul and [RIM] (Now NoHaul). If BASAG was to be included in the arrangement, then it should have been included in the original agreement.
Haul! - bigjay on 25.09.2011 at 16:49
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My point of view...
The whole world knows basaq is our basher tribe. You specifically know its our basher tribe as discussions you were apart of on the external forums brought them up. But you are right... there is no in-game diplomacy between your tribe and basaq. Well you are aware they are under our protection... so the ball is entirely in your court.
You can attack them while we protect them and put our diplomacy at risk, or you can proceed to think of them as a part of Haul.
In terms of this particular situation I think bird should return some villages. I won't inconvenience him to return all of them, but I think returning 3 would be pretty fair.
NoHaul - Kustard King on 25.09.2011 at 17:05
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http://www.twstats.com/en56/index.php?page=player&mode=conquers&id=4448600
By the looks of it, lordballbag has already taken it upon himself to take 3 villages back. I appreciate your efforts to come to a compromise, but Haul's brutish response to this incident came before reasonableness had a chance to step in.
If you wish to set up the NAP between BASAG and NoHaul now, feel free to make it a formal request. Attacks will stop when we have a reason to stop them. On our part, we consider it a compromise (And one fairer to you) to not expect repayments for the damage Haul has done to NoHaul through the NAP.
Haul! - Futzi123 on 25.09.2011 at 17:18
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Any lost villages between NoHaul and Basag should be transferred asap, or it will be done by power. Period. You're just being pigheaded, as bailif said, do you really think we'd be okay with you guys attacking our bashers? Which btw, you did know they were our bashers. Don't try to excuse this incident otherwise.
Let's be civilized and just return those villages. If you're man enough to attack someone under our protection, be man enough to face the consequenses. "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"
Haul! - The Bailliff on 25.09.2011 at 17:18
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the attacks should not have started in the first place, we have not attacked you guys while we had a nap, but this is not the first time your tribe has put the diplo at risk ask conorsmith96 about when he sent 4 attacks at me without any provocation,just because he had an argument with a member of his family or friend, i had attacks land on my village killing some of my troops, how much do i have to put up with before i think you have no respect for us? i still want the villages back, and unless jay makes some agreement with you which i agree with that`s what i`ll be doing
NoHaul - Kustard King on 25.09.2011 at 17:29
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From this point on I'm ignoring all input from anyone other than Bigjay.
Unless Haul's official response is to do diplomacy with threats and brutish behaviour.
Haul! - The Bailliff on 25.09.2011 at 19:19
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i did`nt think you`d respond to the reminder of one of your player making an unprovoked attack on me
Haul! - Futzi123 on 25.09.2011 at 20:43
Quote Edit Delete Kustard King wrote:
From this point on I'm ignoring all input from anyone other than Bigjay.
Unless Haul's official response is to do diplomacy with threats and brutish behaviour.
Say what? Brutish behaviour?
Dude, get some experience before playing king
Haul! - bigjay on 26.09.2011 at 22:28
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Uhhh yeah... I'll take this into a civilized form of discussion. Mail/skype.
Haul barons - you should remember not to act so hostility toward our "friends"
And then we had said discussion over Skype:
[SPOIL]
[/SPOIL][27/09/2011 01:14:51] KustyKustyKusty!: So. The BASAG thing.
[27/09/2011 01:15:40] KustyKustyKusty!: I apologise if I came off rude in the shared forums, but the first response I got from Haul was hostility and threats.
[27/09/2011 01:16:00] KustyKustyKusty!: And until you stepped in, that's pretty much all I got
[27/09/2011 01:18:37] bigjay: Well it came accross a bit odd to me
[27/09/2011 01:19:23] KustyKustyKusty!: In what way?
[27/09/2011 01:20:07] bigjay: how you choose to address it
[27/09/2011 01:21:22] KustyKustyKusty!: I honestly think we're in the right. If Haul wanted to negotiate over it, then it should have started that way. We got attacks before it was even posted in the forums.
[27/09/2011 01:21:42] bigjay: I was referring to "How were we supposed to know basaq is your basher tribe?"
[27/09/2011 01:21:54] bigjay: when I'm fairly sure you knew that...
[27/09/2011 01:22:36] KustyKustyKusty!: I personally didn't. When I spoke to the new owner of BitW, I even asked who BASAG were bashing for.
[27/09/2011 01:22:48] KustyKustyKusty!: I'll just find the quote
[27/09/2011 01:23:06] bigjay: I just don't see how you did not know...
[27/09/2011 01:23:25] KustyKustyKusty!: [23/09/2011 00:44:32] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: Can I noble basher agency? (think)
[23/09/2011 00:55:06 | Edited 00:55:08] KustyKustyKusty!: Who? o;
[23/09/2011 01:13:30] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: It's a tribe.
[23/09/2011 01:14:06] KustyKustyKusty!: Sounds like they're affiliated with someone?
[23/09/2011 01:14:51] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: Description
A tribe established for the sole purpose of promoting BASHERs.
[23/09/2011 01:15:12] KustyKustyKusty!: Meh... Go for it, then
[23/09/2011 01:15:29] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: The I'm going after isn't advertising who they work for.
[27/09/2011 01:24:34] bigjay: yeah but... its all over the pnp that basaq is our basher tribe
[27/09/2011 01:25:02] bigjay: S-D complained about us using them to nuke them. Oh-Yeah attacks them. etc...
[27/09/2011 01:25:45] KustyKustyKusty!: What can I say? I'm not as active there as I used to be. These days I tend to get by on what others tell me.
[27/09/2011 01:26:41] KustyKustyKusty!: The war topics are huge. Full of flaming and insults. The odd smidgens of info that come through on them tend to be talked about in the Skype chat/NoHaul chat
[27/09/2011 01:26:55] KustyKustyKusty!: BASAG's probably just not important enough to have come up.
[27/09/2011 01:27:05] KustyKustyKusty!: And I mean that in the nicest way possible.
[27/09/2011 01:27:35] bigjay: eh, not really too important
[27/09/2011 01:27:59] bigjay: i just thought the entire world was aware seeing as how much they were talked about at one point
[27/09/2011 01:28:36] KustyKustyKusty!: I really don't know what to tell you. I honestly didn't know.
[27/09/2011 01:28:56] KustyKustyKusty!: But now I do. So let's work on solving the issue.
[27/09/2011 01:31:56] bigjay: yeah
[27/09/2011 02:41:23] bigjay: so the villages
[27/09/2011 02:44:08] KustyKustyKusty!: We don't mind NAP'ing with BASAG now, but on principle we stand firm in the belief that Haul were quick to attack first and ask questions later. Added to the fact that the NAP put forth didn't include BASAG as an extension, I would even go as far as to say that we've been wronged.
I understand Haul's point of view in that they were your basher tribe, and apparently it looked like we were trying to harm Haul, but that's far from the case. If your councilmen weren't so quick to jump to their conclusions and attacks, we would have been much more willing to compensate.
[27/09/2011 02:45:04] bigjay: yeah i know
[27/09/2011 02:45:52] bigjay: so i only expect half the villages back
[27/09/2011 02:50:48] KustyKustyKusty!: Look at both sides on the scales.
On NoHaul's side, we attacked a tribe that we weren't under any form of NAP agreement with. I, and the attacker, hadn't a clue about BASAG's affiliation to Haul because they did not openly mention it on their profile (A mistake that has since been fixed). We took villages that Haul claimed to be as their own, but not openly.
On Haul's side, they attacked NoHaul members through an NAP using multiple accounts (A pretty big deal, I would say), they attacked first and before even saying anything to us about it, two of their council members made threats against us.
[27/09/2011 02:51:08] KustyKustyKusty!: Is there anything you have to add to either side?
[27/09/2011 02:51:19] KustyKustyKusty!: Or is it an accurate description of events?
[27/09/2011 02:58:59] bigjay: I was only aware of one player attacking
[27/09/2011 03:04:07] KustyKustyKusty!: [02:59:29] KustyKustyKusty!: How many players attacked you during the BASAG stuff?
[03:01:49] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: Far and bailiff.
[03:02:20] KustyKustyKusty!: Lordballbag took villages though, right?
[03:02:32] KustyKustyKusty!: Or was Lordballbag being played by Bailliff?
[03:02:47] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: Just bailiff took villages.
[03:02:52] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: Whoever has his account.
http://www.twstats.com/en56/index.php?page=player&mode=conquers&id=4448600
I'm not even sure anymore
[27/09/2011 03:04:26] bigjay: Lordballbag is ballif
[27/09/2011 03:04:41] bigjay: on tw stats his name is lordballbag
[27/09/2011 03:04:52] bigjay: but in-game they banned his name and changed it to thebalif
[27/09/2011 03:05:05] KustyKustyKusty!: Oooohhhh..... Now that makes more sense.
[27/09/2011 03:05:18] KustyKustyKusty!: Then forgive my error. I thought there were two of them
[27/09/2011 03:05:23] bigjay: you haven't even done your homework :|
[27/09/2011 03:05:42] KustyKustyKusty!: Indeed. I tend to make up stuff as I go along (think)
[27/09/2011 03:05:55] KustyKustyKusty!: :x
[27/09/2011 03:06:11] bigjay: interesting...
[27/09/2011 03:06:24] KustyKustyKusty!:
[27/09/2011 03:07:07] KustyKustyKusty!: Other than that - Anything else you'd add to the sides above?
[27/09/2011 03:07:35] bigjay: the player who was attacked says he is protected by thebalif
[27/09/2011 03:07:40] bigjay: in his profile
[27/09/2011 03:07:52] bigjay: and I believe he has had that for sometime
[27/09/2011 03:08:20] bigjay: i might even be having deju vou over this whole scenario
[27/09/2011 03:09:05] KustyKustyKusty!: I'd have to ask Bird. As you saw in my conversation with her, she just said "Can I attack Basher Agency?" - She didn't tell me the target
[27/09/2011 03:18:41] KustyKustyKusty!: [03:09:20] KustyKustyKusty!: [03:07:35] bigjay: the player who was attacked says he is protected by thebalif
[03:07:40] bigjay: in his profile
[03:07:52] bigjay: and I believe he has had that for sometime
[03:08:20] bigjay: i might even be having deju vou over this whole scenario
[03:09:05] KustyKustyKusty!: I'd have to ask Bird. As you saw in my conversation with her, she just said "Can I attack Basher Agency?" - She didn't tell me the target
[03:14:51] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: And no he didn't.
[03:15:19] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: Far had no mention of who he bashed for, if he was even a basher at all.
[03:15:26] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: That's why I choose him as a target.
[03:16:40] KustyKustyKusty!: You're absolutely sure? (worry)
[03:17:04] KustyKustyKusty!: I'm going to quote this, btw.
[03:17:20 | Edited 03:17:23] KustyKustyKusty!: I know you wouldn't lie to me, but... This is for Haul <3
[03:18:25] Katlyn - Innocent Sorrow.: I'm positive.
[03:18:34] KustyKustyKusty!: Okies. Thanks <3
[27/09/2011 03:25:23] bigjay: so anyways like i said, im interested in obtaining half back
[27/09/2011 03:25:58] bigjay: otherwise baliff will feel cheated over the protection of his basher
[27/09/2011 03:29:13] KustyKustyKusty!: [02:50:48] KustyKustyKusty!: Look at both sides on the scales.
On NoHaul's side, we attacked a tribe that we weren't under any form of NAP agreement with. I, and the attacker, hadn't a clue about BASAG's affiliation to Haul because they did not openly mention it on their profile (A mistake that has since been fixed). We took villages that Haul claimed to be as their own, but not openly.
On Haul's side, they attacked NoHaul members through an NAP (A pretty big deal, I would say), they attacked first and before even saying anything to us about it, two of their council members made threats against us.
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Now that we're agreed on the events that took place, let's discuss the aftermath.
Read the above carefully, then consider this...
If NoHaul were Haul, and Haul were NoHaul, how would you react if I'd asked for half of the villages back?
[27/09/2011 03:30:15] bigjay: I don't see the point of this excercise
[27/09/2011 03:31:25] bigjay: I'm not going to tell you what I would do in this situation, wether i would accept the offer or not
[27/09/2011 03:35:38] KustyKustyKusty!: I see the point in it, because you're trying to convince me to give villages to Haul that we fought for fair and square. I'm not convinced. I'm giving you opportunities to express your viewpoint from the NoHaul point of view, and to tell me why it is fair for us to give you the villages - You shouldn't have a problem with it, unless you didn't think the arrangement were fair.
[27/09/2011 03:36:15] bigjay: I don't like to play this reverse situation nonsense
[27/09/2011 03:36:34] bigjay: especially not without knowing the other persons viewpoint
[27/09/2011 03:38:27] KustyKustyKusty!: Then find another way to convince me, because I've pretty much done all the talking here. All you've said is you want the villages back - That's clearly not going to happen unless you discuss why it is fair.
[27/09/2011 03:38:53] bigjay: okay from either stand point seems fair to me...
[27/09/2011 03:39:25] bigjay: Overall the course of events were a NoHaul player attacked a Haul player's basher
[27/09/2011 03:39:33] bigjay: took a good deal of villages
[27/09/2011 03:39:51] bigjay: and was then attacked by the haul player
[27/09/2011 03:40:09] bigjay: So I see a fault of each side
[27/09/2011 03:41:05] bigjay: then we can bring to the table the misshap of communication of the basher tribe... alright seems pretty in your favor so we will let you keep some villages
[27/09/2011 03:41:18] bigjay: but also I take into consideration how this was handeled as well
[27/09/2011 03:42:33] bigjay: while my baron should not have attacked, I see his reasoning, he wants to protect his assets. But then you didn't even do your full homework on this situation... acussing my tribe of making further attacks, saying two players were now attacking as well.
[27/09/2011 03:42:44] bigjay: So that is why I feel 50/50 is fair
[27/09/2011 03:43:08] bigjay: both sides made some mistakes... and your side comes out better off then it went in
[27/09/2011 03:43:41] KustyKustyKusty!: That's a good breakdown of events, and I like it... Except for one missed detail.
[27/09/2011 03:43:59] KustyKustyKusty!: NoHaul does not have an NAP with BASAG.
[27/09/2011 03:45:22] KustyKustyKusty!: I fault my side for lack of knowledge, and for that repayment is fair. But I feel that Haul made far more mistakes in this than NoHaul did.
[27/09/2011 03:45:56] KustyKustyKusty!: Even if we did know about BASAG, which is an advertising problem on your side and a research problem on ours, there was no NAP.
[27/09/2011 03:46:10] bigjay: so whos fault is that...
[27/09/2011 03:46:17] bigjay: niether of us were duke for that long
[27/09/2011 03:46:36] bigjay: and why would I be aware you didnt have a nap with hauls basher tribe
[27/09/2011 03:46:44] bigjay: only you would know...
[27/09/2011 03:46:57] KustyKustyKusty!: Does BASAG have us listed as an NAP?
[27/09/2011 03:47:14] bigjay: i have no idea
[27/09/2011 03:47:22] bigjay: but they dont expand outside our orders
[27/09/2011 03:49:21] KustyKustyKusty!: I sympathise, as one new leader to another, with the diplomacy hiccup. It seems both of us have gaps in our knowledge that have lead to this misunderstanding.
[27/09/2011 04:00:36] KustyKustyKusty!: 9 villages were taken. 3 have already been taken back. That's, as you know, a third.
[27/09/2011 04:02:32] KustyKustyKusty!: Given that, though there is some fault on both sides, arguably Haul were more in the wrong. 1/3 of the villages taken back should suffice. What would you say to that?
[27/09/2011 04:12:24] bigjay: give him back another
[27/09/2011 04:12:27] bigjay: then its 5-4
[27/09/2011 04:12:36] bigjay: which still seems fair to me
[27/09/2011 04:12:53] bigjay: 6-3 does not however...
[27/09/2011 04:13:15] bigjay: when the villages lost belong to our tribe in the first place...
[27/09/2011 04:13:20] bigjay: so to speak
[27/09/2011 04:13:38] KustyKustyKusty!: So to speak.
[27/09/2011 04:14:47] KustyKustyKusty!: I'll bring the offer to Bird and see what she says.
[27/09/2011 04:14:59] KustyKustyKusty!: Under the condition that you say please
[27/09/2011 04:15:42] bigjay: :|
[27/09/2011 04:16:02] bigjay: please do that
[27/09/2011 04:16:18] KustyKustyKusty!:(y)
[27/09/2011 04:16:28] KustyKustyKusty!: Sent it to her
^ To be honest, towards the end, I just got tired of arguing and wanted to get rid of him =/
The above topics are unedited, and the only things edited out of the Skype chat was mindless chitchat. Bigjay and I had a rather intense conversation about tacos which didn't really need to be in there. I also put colour into the Skype quotes to make it easier to read :s
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Whatever you took from the above quotes, all you need to know is that Haul and NoHaul do not get along. For that, and other reasons, we declare war on Haul!
Good luck to all.
P.S.
I realise that none of you are going to read much of the above declaration, and that works for me! I only had 30 minutes to knock it together because the guy who was supposed to write it ducked out :|
I ask that for this topic, pay extra special attention to my sig. Please.
