Failed Vote Invasions

Do you like this idea?


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BLiTzKrIeG 2.0

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World Invasions

A domination world, or really any victory condition, but with an interesting catch - an invasion. To fit the setting of the game it could be like either a Mongol type group or maybe some sort of undead plague, faction of necromancers, etc. They would pick a few areas, semi-randomly, relatively close to each other on the rim that they would begin attacking at first, with attacks randomly appearing 3 hours out with no forewarning, and they would conquer those villages on the rim with superior troop numbers and superior troops, a different troop set from what is used by players. Once stablishing a beachhead they'd begin attacking whoever and whatever with no regard for tribes, amount of resistance, strength, whatever. It would need to kind of run out of steam after the initial invasion, with the invasion and the first 100 conquers (maybe a certain percentage of world control) being frontloaded by OP stacks, but after those stacks are expended the invader would have to begin building its own special troops in conquered villages.

This would make for some very interesting gameplay not before seen on TW, will all the tribes form an alliance to fight the invasion? Will they be unable to set aside their past issues and continue fighting each other? Maybe some tribes will use the chaos created by the invasion to attack stronger tribes to further their own ends, knowing that the stronger tribe is expending troops fighting the invasion. Will tribes take the initiative and immediately start trying to relocate their stronger players that are hit hard by the invasion?

I think for best results, it couldn't be an "invasion world," it would have to happen on a domination world chosen by developers without players knowing. Otherwise I think tribes would start preparing for it beforehand knowing it will come eventually and they would be too prepared, removing the invasion's shock and chaos factor from the equation.

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The Invader
I'm going to use the Mongol example I gave as an archetype for what I think the invader would look like.

The Troops
I think the troop set should be pretty narrow, possessing primarily offensive troops

Offensive
Rider - A soldier on a short and stocky, yet incredibly fast and harty steed, armed with a strange curved sword.
Speed - 9
Atk - 130
Def - 30
Cav Def - 40
Arc Def - 30

Bow Rider - A soldier on a short and stocky, yet incredibly fast and harty steed, armed with a small bow with incredible power and accuracy.
Speed - 9
Atk - 150
Def - 30
Cav Def - 40
Arc Def - 50

Lancer - A soldier on a short and stocky, yet incredibly fast and harty steed, armed with a lance.
Speed - 9
Atk - 150
Def - 40
Cav Def - 100
Arc Def - 30

Offensive and Defensive
Battle Archer - An archer armed with a composite bow and a strange curved sword, effective against all types of foot soldiers, however lightly armored for meneuverability.
Speed - 15.999
Atk - 35
Def - 20
Cav Def - 20
Arc Def - 50

Mangonel - A catapult that operates using weights, used to launch stone projectiles, burning oil vessels, and rotted caracases making them effective against both troops, as well as buildings and fortifications. Can be disassembled and towed for faster deployment.
Speed - 23.999
Atk - 150
Def - 40
Cav Def - 100
Arc Def - 30

The Tactics (AI)

The Invader doesn't focus much on defense, and will often leave relatively few troops in villages unless it is mustering an army. However, attacks will be non-stop day and night, attacks may stop on a players, but that just means other players are being attacked more.

Offensively
The Invader will move quickly and attack anyone in its path, attempting to keep a solid border and avoid creating pockets, if pockets are created it will focus on attacking these before the front line. When attacking a new village it will attack using armies that have Mangonels first aiming to destroy the wall and random buildings, it will always attempt to knock down walls before attacking with armies comprised of only horse riders. When it has conquered a village it will demolish random buildings similar to how a barbarian village does when it is downgrading to the max barbarian point levels, starting with demolishing the walls and maintaining them at 0.

Defensively
The Invader will never stack villages for defense or snipe incoming noble trains. The only defensive action it will take is quickly attacking recently conquered villages to try to get them back.

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Special Game Mechanics for the Invader
There will need to be some special game mechanics for the invader to function properly, these will also decrease the scripting needs for an invasion AI.

-Troop training/spawning independent of Barracks and Stables
As the Invader will be downgrading buildings and not building anything, they'll need to be able to spawn units without the conventional training method as well as needs, as the invader won't be using resources. The Invader would also be able to create troops significantly faster than any human player could, as they'll be fighting pretty much the entire world.

-Merging troops into armies
As stated above, the Invader will need to be able to muster complete nukes faster, depending on how this is done, this part may not be neccesary, but assuming it is the Invader could merge troops produced in multiple villages into a single nuke. This would also serve as a way to keep their initial invasion stacks moving and in use as it advances, as the initial OP stacks may last for a while depending on how much resistance the Invader meets early on.

-A different method of conquering
Partially due to the demands this would put on development and also due to the lore nature of this invasion, the Invader should be able to conquer villages independently of nobles, ideally a player's village is conquered if it is attacked and has no wall or gets it's wall completed destroyed, and if it has no troops or gets it's troops completely destroyed.

-Resource destruction
Unlike other troops, which would be plundering resources (the village is captured by the Invader when all troops and wall are defeated and destroyed, so plunder wouldn't happen anyway), the invader should actually "destroy" resources with each attack, the amount of resources destroyed could be anywhere from 0% and increasing depending on the level of the wall and the amount of defending troops were killed, this would simulate their chaotic method of warfare, not solely focusing on troops but also attacking the civilian population in infrastructure during a battle. To compliment this simulated total warfare, building levels could be decreased during an attack even if there are no Mangonels (although Mangonels would inflict greater damage).

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When/how this would happen, specifically.
For best results, it should be on a world without players knowledge, the invasion may not be balanced if players and tribes don't act as they normally would on a domination world, and spend early game collaborating and preparing for the Invasion. The concern is - lot's of players may see it's occurance on a world as unfair/game breaking if they were intending to play a normal world, even though it would be an interesting variance from the norm.

A potential compromise would be a setting - "Invasion Possability: Enabled" - and anyone who doesn't want the chance of an invasion could steer clear of the world, anyone who wouldn't mind taking the chance of it could still play, this may also prompt more players to try out more worlds, wanting to experience an invasion.

Ideally, the invasion would have a % chance to happen, maybe, on worlds it is enabled on, a 50% chance. It would start at a point when the world is mid-development - no tribes are incredibly powerful, yet most tribes are no longer just playing with a few villages per player, so maybe a random time between the 3 and 6 month mark.

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Beta
For testing on Beta, I think an "Invasion World" could be viable, with players knowing that they should behave as if it were a domination world, as the purpose of Beta worlds is to test out new features and mechanics.

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Balance
I believed this is balanced, while the offensive power of the Invader is significant, it's defensive power is seriously lacking, it would take adaption from players to find the best strategy for combating the Invader, but that's where the fun of it is, a new challenge to overcome. It's lack of defensive ability is what really balances it out for the players.

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Why?
Really just variation, Domination is fun, but it is repetitive. This, like my other suggestion for a victory condition, would add gameplay and mechanics that pose new challenges for players on Tribal Wars that have never been encountered before, I think this would serve well as player retention, as well as attracting both new and old players alike.


Is there anything I've missed? Anything that maybe needs further explanation? Please let me know what you think.

Thank you!
 

JawJaw

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Approved for voting. Good luck!
 

SwedishBlueCheese

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I dont see innogames putting their time on devoloping an AI that would be able to handle 1v1ing players without it being super broken or super shit. Its a cool thought but i dont see it fitting into tribalwars
 

BLiTzKrIeG 2.0

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I dont see innogames putting their time on devoloping an AI that would be able to handle 1v1ing players without it being super broken or super shit. Its a cool thought but i dont see it fitting into tribalwars
I disagree, it's not as difficult as you might initially think as it is not really any sort of machine intelligence at work, (I just called it an AI for simplicity) it's scripted actions and an algorithm, and in reality its functionality is remarkably small due to the reworked game mechanics that are applied specially to "AI" owned villages. It would not have the ability, nor need, to time attacks, it would not be able to snipe incoming noble trains, and it would not calculate anything for maximum efficiency as it's troop set is both unique and not well rounded - only suitable for attacking. The only advantage it would really have over players is stronger offensive troops and 24 hour activity. It's very unbalanced in its strategy as it is pretty much solely offensive, and is also meant to run out of it's overpowered momentum shortly after post invasion.
 

Almighty CorE

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As I said before Ofc I love the idea however without the visual effect as TW is more about Time and Numbers It seems rather dull. This would have been a great idea for MMORPG . But I'd love to see INNO put it together perhaps modifies it as it fits so it does not ruin the actual game . It will be pretty messed up for players to loose everything by some GD Invaders especially newbies so there's need to be some precaution or safety net added for the players that does not have a tribe or work on a ratio. You aren't gonna get the Invaders to attack with full force on a small player or a player with one tiny Village.

I really cant wrap my head around this addons for a regular world, there's so much more to discuss and detail . You only stated how the Invaders will work and gave them a massive advantage with speed attack power and rapid recruitment ability. What do we as players get out of it? Just like events there should be rewards Like you the village you take from the invaders (If thats what we get to do) Will we keep their ability to recruit better troops or Faster troops in those villages? Or If we successfully defend ourselves against Invaders depending on how much we had to do we should get some rewards from it (Again just like an event perhaps a buff or 2 depending on your contribution) . Also this has to be a HP world or Masters where we can bump up the speed a bit to keep up. I mean let's do a Beta runup and may be we can go from there.

PS. I am still trying to read and understand the concept in more deeper level .. This need to be simplified for my old rusty brain!
 

SwedishBlueCheese

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I disagree, it's not as difficult as you might initially think as it is not really any sort of machine intelligence at work, (I just called it an AI for simplicity) it's scripted actions and an algorithm, and in reality its functionality is remarkably small due to the reworked game mechanics that are applied specially to "AI" owned villages. It would not have the ability, nor need, to time attacks, it would not be able to snipe incoming noble trains, and it would not calculate anything for maximum efficiency as it's troop set is both unique and not well rounded - only suitable for attacking. The only advantage it would really have over players is stronger offensive troops and 24 hour activity. It's very unbalanced in its strategy as it is pretty much solely offensive, and is also meant to run out of it's overpowered momentum shortly after post invasion.
So the barbs will send nuke nobels that i can just prenoble and recap? And i can send trains on their non stacked FL? Sounds more annoying than fun
 

BLiTzKrIeG 2.0

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So the barbs will send nuke nobels that i can just prenoble and recap? And i can send trains on their non stacked FL? Sounds more annoying than fun
Mm, no. It's not just a bunch of barbs, I suppose it's kind of like the combination of a player and a barb if you really want to make the comparison. As for prenobling, see the 3rd point under "Special Game Mechanics for the Invader":

-A different method of conquering
Partially due to the demands this would put on development and also due to the lore nature of this invasion, the Invader should be able to conquer villages independently of nobles, ideally a player's village is conquered if it is attacked and has no wall or gets it's wall completed destroyed, and if it has no troops or gets it's troops completely destroyed.
Prenobling would have no effect on the invader's conquest of the village as it would not use nobles nor have to lower loyalty in order to conquer a village. The purpose of this is multifold -
  • Easier on the backend, with giving the PC nobles and making it having to deal with loyalty, you would need to create lots of extra parameters, additional algorithms, and scripted functionality for it to be able to use nobles effectively.
  • More difficult, it hinders the player's ability to use tactics along the lines of what you just described.
  • It fits the character of the invasion more, whether its a supernatural invasion or some sort of conquering nomadic horde as used in the example, they wouldn't much care about anything conventional, let alone the idea of "convincing" the villages to join you, which is what loyalty is meant to represent, they'd smash through the defenses and pillage the town, hence the destruction of the buildings after conquest.

As for it being as simple as sending trains to conquer it's unstacked villages, I don't see it being that simple, the Invader wouldn't have stalling moments, off times, or have the capacity to op on specific areas for strategic advantages, it would just be attacking everywhere prioritized by proximity to it's own villages, so for any close range noble trains to be a possibility, you'd have to have the def troops to protect the village, and after taking a village, you'd have to have the defensive troops to protect it from getting immediately reconquered when it likely will have a low or no wall (see the game mechanic above). But that is exactly the strategy that is intended to be used, utilizing def stacks in a more "offensive manner" in an attempt to melt the Invader's offense faster than it can produce it. This is the idea behind it being given large OP stacks of troops in the beginning that it could move from village to village as it advances, creating a explosive and overpowered initial push, but gradually fizzling out as it loses those free stacks as well as the troops it was able to more freely muster while while still fighting with those stacks.


It will be pretty messed up for players to loose everything by some GD Invaders especially newbies so there's need to be some precaution or safety net added for the players that does not have a tribe or work on a ratio. You aren't gonna get the Invaders to attack with full force on a small player or a player with one tiny Village.
How is any of that really any different from losing your villages to a player? It would be a bit nasty yes, especially on newbies, but it's not something that would happen right out of the gate. It wouldn't happen until mid game or maybe even late game. By then the newbies are already gone or working with numbered days, and most players should be in a tribe.


I really cant wrap my head around this addons for a regular world, there's so much more to discuss and detail . You only stated how the Invaders will work and gave them a massive advantage with speed attack power and rapid recruitment ability. What do we as players get out of it? Just like events there should be rewards Like you the village you take from the invaders (If thats what we get to do) Will we keep their ability to recruit better troops or Faster troops in those villages? Or If we successfully defend ourselves against Invaders depending on how much we had to do we should get some rewards from it (Again just like an event perhaps a buff or 2 depending on your contribution).
What do we as players get out of any other war in a world? This is just a new interesting challenge to overcome that is not totally dissociated from the same old wars, they happen. But yes, I could see there maybe being some sort of reward system, maybe pointage on a tribe or player level that would award... something. That could be helpful to balance things out, reward players and tribes who put more work towards defeating the invader.
 

misteralb

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I voted for No. Voted No because I don't this adding some value into the core of the game which is tribe vs tribe instead of tribe/player vs some kind of AI or bot or whatever this is.

Also the mechanics of this feature involve so many new stuff (new unit types, new game mechanics, new strategies) that it's easier to create a new game from scratch then integrate this into a game like TW (personal opinion).

Technically, implementing all of this, saying is hard is a very big understatement (personal opinion). I don't know the dev capabilities but I'm a developer myself and what developers hate the most are having to deal with special cases. We love universalization as much as possible (since we write less code and we do more). Instead this new feature creates lots and lots of special cases so technically I don't see this as being easy to implement

If this is to be implemented this kind of feature could delay other more important/critical features or bug fixes from being implemented into the game (personal opinion).

Another point of view against this idea is that of the player who loses villages/troops against this bot/invader thing. Don't think a lot of players would love that part. The core principle of the game is for players to fight each other, tribes to fight each other and there are other mechanisms that currently exist built in-game to have a group of tribes work together towards a certain goal (diplomacy).

You have submitted another idea also, for a new end-game scenario. Even that one is a big one but that one IMO feels much more realistic and inside the game's core idea.
 

BLiTzKrIeG 2.0

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Technically, implementing all of this, saying is hard is a very big understatement (personal opinion). I don't know the dev capabilities but I'm a developer myself and what developers hate the most are having to deal with special cases. We love universalization as much as possible (since we write less code and we do more). Instead this new feature creates lots and lots of special cases so technically I don't see this as being easy to implement
I am a developer as well and have been modding games for a few years now, hence some of the "unconventional" (with regards to the functionality of TW) methods that would actually allow it to be implemented less painfully, as some of the functionality already exists within the game, or did at one point, and can be reused. But I do agree and see your point, this would be a serious undertaking for the developers no matter how much existing code could be reused/edited to facilitate this.



Another point of view against this idea is that of the player who loses villages/troops against this bot/invader thing. Don't think a lot of players would love that part. The core principle of the game is for players to fight each other, tribes to fight each other and there are other mechanisms that currently exist built in-game to have a group of tribes work together towards a certain goal (diplomacy).
I had considered this, see under "When/how this would happen, specifically." (quoted below). The Invasion would not have its full effect if it was a Yes/No setting, so ideally, some worlds would have a setting enabled that gives it a "chance" of happening. We already have plenty of settings that players look at when deciding whether or not they wanna play a world, this would really be no different. If the idea is a hit though it could become it's own world, like what Absolute Ruler suggested with HP worlds.

Touching on the Diplomacy point, sure, but not that I can remember has a world setting pressured collaboration between tribes in such a way.


A potential compromise would be a setting - "Invasion Possibility: Enabled" - and anyone who doesn't want the chance of an invasion could steer clear of the world, anyone who wouldn't mind taking the chance of it could still play, this may also prompt more players to try out more worlds, wanting to experience an invasion.

Ideally, the invasion would have a % chance to happen, maybe, on worlds it is enabled on, a 50% chance. It would start at a point when the world is mid-development - no tribes are incredibly powerful, yet most tribes are no longer just playing with a few villages per player, so maybe a random time between the 3 and 6 month mark.


Lastly,
I voted for No. Voted No because I don't this adding some value into the core of the game which is tribe vs tribe instead of tribe/player vs some kind of AI or bot or whatever this is.
When has a game been harmed by expanding available gameplay options? (Without getting rid of existing ones of course.)
 

DaWolf85

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I think there are definitely good elements to this, but it has major issues in the current setup that really break the whole concept.

First of all, the idea that players shouldn't know that an invasion is coming is just absurd. You would have players joining and hoping to experience an invasion, playing all world, and not getting one. How is that fun? Likewise, you would have players joining, hoping to not experience an invasion, and getting screwed by RNG. Sure, you can argue that they should have prepared. But if they should have prepared... then it should just be guaranteed to happen. Players can't predict random chance, and staking the endgame of an entire world on random chance is just fundamentally flawed, to the point that it breaks the entire idea.

I additionally agree that the PvE element of it is too much for a game where players primarily expect to play PvP. The RNG of it maybe not even happening exacerbates this issue, but it's still an issue regardless.

There are elements of this that would be interesting to have as an event. I've been interested for a while in the idea of having more events that aren't just a minigame that's completely divorced from the world itself. Having an event where you build a special troop type and attack other players with it, would be an interesting idea that I haven't really seen.

However, as this idea is not that - it's an endgame concept. And as an endgame concept, it fails. So I have voted no. I would, however, be interested to see some of the mechanics of this developed into an event concept. I think that should be able to be different enough to get a separate vote.
 

Eakshow McGee

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Kinda agree with Dawolf, i think this would be more suitable for an event than a world setting. And its dangerous to have "AI/Bots" that is random and affect the gameplay (atleast if they attack the players).