Philosophy questions

[mattcurr]

I think where we fall short here is thinking of God on the same level as ourselves. His ways are unfathomable as we cannot begin to understand the intricacies of his imagination or comprehend his purpose .

<3

Well you started off well. I must agree with this however..

Assuming we are all speaking about the judeo christian god of the bible; ignoring the bibles horrible inconsistencies, speaking about the super natural is in and of itself counter productive.

Being super natural excludes it from the naturalistic world. The naturalistic world is the only thing which we can have knowledge of and have created our entire thought process around. In what way is it intelligent to apply a thought process derived from the naturalistic world to something which is not confined to or defined in the naturalistic world. Unless god is bound to our rules than we cannot attempt to define him by them or use reasoning based within them to try to understand him.

Would you rather Him not allow any of that ie take away your free will? :icon_confused:

The act of creation removes free will.

With infinite knowledge at the moment of creation god chose everything that has ever happened and will ever happen. It is impossible to create something with infinite knowledge and not know what it will do thus by creating it the way he did he chose what would happen.

 

[G0dzP0t]

/doesn't read whole thread sorry if off topic

For that simple reason matt just said, is why I don't believe in any religious deity or "god" if you will. We have all the science in the world showing no proof of any sort of divine intervention or creationism and yet still people believe in god.

Always wanted to ask this to someone religious: Why do you believe in god? There is no proof of existence and yet still millions of people from around the world be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists all believe in some sort of god(s). Why is that?

 

[mattcurr]

Always wanted to ask this to someone religious: Why do you believe in god? There is no proof of existence and yet still millions of people from around the world be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists all believe in some sort of god(s). Why is that?

I would bet Einstein is right fear + mystery.

 

[DeletedUser92119]

The act of creation removes free will.

With infinite knowledge at the moment of creation god chose everything that has ever happened and will ever happen. It is impossible to create something with infinite knowledge and not know what it will do thus by creating it the way he did he chose what would happen.

This goes back to Green's question on the previous page. We have all agreed this is incorrect. Tell me, how can the knowledge of an action hinder your ability to chose?

/doesn't read whole thread sorry if off topic

For that simple reason matt just said, is why I don't believe in any religious deity or "god" if you will. We have all the science in the world showing no proof of any sort of divine intervention or creationism and yet still people believe in god.

Take a look at this and tell me what you think. I would like the opinion of a non-christian on this.

Always wanted to ask this to someone religious: Why do you believe in god? There is no proof of existence and yet still millions of people from around the world be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists all believe in some sort of god(s). Why is that?

1. It does feel nice to believe that there is life after death, i will not deny that.
2. The emotion and "morals" of human kind seem irrelevant without a supreme creator.
3. I dont like thinking i exist for no real reason. That it was all just a coincidence.
4. No one, with all their science, has been able to disprove the Bible.

 

[darkaniken2]

This goes back to Green's question on the previous page. We have all agreed this is incorrect. Tell me, how can the knowledge of an action hinder your ability to chose?

Because at the moment of creation, all the data used to predict the future had to be written. He choose the parameters in which we would function, and thus all of our actions are based on what he made. Assuming he exists, which I do not believe he does.

1. Does there need to be a god to have life after death? What about the belief in reincarnation?
2. I disagree. Having no supreme being makes them matter more, because we choose to follow them because we want to, not because we fear an eternity in hell.
3. People lie to themselves to convince themselves that something has meaning all the time.
4. And yet, no one has been able to prove it either, have they?

 

[DeletedUser92119]

Because at the moment of creation, all the data used to predict the future had to be written. He choose the parameters in which we would function, and thus all of our actions are based on what he made. Assuming he exists, which I do not believe he does.

The "parameters" are that we may chose whatever we want

1. Does there need to be a god to have life after death? What about the belief in reincarnation?
2. I disagree. Having no supreme being makes them matter more, because we choose to follow them because we want to, not because we fear an eternity in hell.
3. People lie to themselves to convince themselves that something has meaning all the time.
4. And yet, no one has been able to prove it either, have they?

1. There doesnt need to be, i would just like there to be. With reincarnation, i come back to the same dreadful world as before. With Christianity, you go to a perfect place. Heaven. Also with reincarnation, you may come back as a fly depending upon how you live your life. That would not be fun

2. i worded this one wrong. What i meant was, i dont see how they could exist at all. Explain to me why other mammals dont have moral codes.

3. This is true

4. Depends on what you consider "proof". There will always still be an element of faith in the equation. which for some people is too much to ask of them.

 

[G0dzP0t]

Take a look at this and tell me what you think. I would like the opinion of a non-christian on this.

An interesting read, but it really displays no proof of god whatsoever. The article mainly focuses on disproving atheism rather than proving religion. On top of that there are many flawed elements such as the argument of the universe's hydrogen being used up. When a star diess be it through supernova or simple burnout all of the matter and energy still within it is released. When this happens many different types of elements are released such as Gold, Platinum and other heavy metals and also, Hydrogen. The death of a star is extremely violent so both nuclear fission and fusion happen during this, this is what causes the spectacular supernovae colours. Each element represents a different colour (ie blue is oxygen).

It also brings up the idea of creation. That atheists believe it all just kinda happened. Not particularly what I believe but for the sake of argument why not. If creationism is how the universe and life came to be, what/who was it that created god? Why is god so powerful compared to everything else? Why was god created? Who is god? Why would god create us?




EDIT also this

2. i worded this one wrong. What i meant was, i dont see how they could exist at all. Explain to me why other mammals dont have moral codes.

Other mammals and animals in general do have moral codes. It is imperative to their survival as a species. Take ants for instance, in order to even survive and reproduce they need to work together to accomplish some greater good. The same is true with mammals that migrate. They migrate in large groups to protect one another from predators and harm. Humans are not the only animals to exhibit this behavior.

 

[DeletedUser92119]

See, thats why i wanted an atheist take on that. Thank you. That was very informative

 

[DeletedUser96328]

Just as we trust many professional people day to day to do things on our behalf even though we do not understand the complexities of what they do , so it is also required to put your trust in a God . If that is what you choose to believe.

Let's assume you hire an architect to build your house, but he starts building it by the roof. You're not a professional, but something tells you that he might be wrong. Wouldn't you at least question his abilities as an architect? Wouldn't your trust be affected by it?

 

[2hot2handle]

Let's assume you hire an architect to build your house, but he starts building it by the roof. You're not a professional, but something tells you that he might be wrong. Wouldn't you at questioning his abilities as an architect? Wouldn't your trust be affected by it?

Well that depends , I wouldn't just choose any architect to build me a house. I will have thoroughly investigated them to ensure they are trustworthy and the best person for the job .
Therefore I will have developed that trust before they attempted to start any work on the property.
Therefore , if they started to build a house from the roof , I would trust that they do know what they are doing , but however I would still question them about it so I could understand it better myself . If I question his abilities after he's started work , that is going to cause problems . Believe me if you have ever had a house built ... the relationships with builder and architect are crucial , you need to know you can trust them .

I could relate this to God but meh I'm sure you can figure it out . Not enough time atm.

<3

 

[DeletedUser96328]

Well that depends , I wouldn't just choose any architect to build me a house. I will have thoroughly investigated them to ensure they are trustworthy and the best person for the job .
Therefore I will have developed that trust before they attempted to start any work on the property.
Therefore , if they started to build a house from the roof , I would trust that they do know what they are doing , but however I would still question them about it so I could understand it better myself . If I question his abilities after he's started work , that is going to cause problems . Believe me if you have ever had a house built ... the relationships with builder and architect are crucial , you need to know you can trust them .

I could relate this to God but meh I'm sure you can figure it out . Not enough time atm.

<3

It's an analogy, so no need to relate it explicitly I'm going to answer to the bolded part: what if the architect never answers your questions? Would the hope of getting an ideal house be enough for you?

 

[mattcurr]

This goes back to Green's question on the previous page. We have all agreed this is incorrect. Tell me, how can the knowledge of an action hinder your ability to chose?

Okay you probably dont understand because we are speaking of the complex. But boil it down, and then apply the understanding of the boiled down statement to the whole.

If I roll a ball at an exact angle with an exact speed at another ball. I know what will happen. So it will do what I made it do, I may not have "made" it do it in the purest sense, but through the act of rolling it and knowing what would happen I could have made it do what ever I wanted. I could have made it roll backwards, which would be different but I didnt.


When god made the first atom's he would have known how they would react with one another. Who would be born, what they would be like, how they would act and how they would think. He knows that about everyone, so creating it as he did he knew exactly what would have happened and chose through the act of creation everything that has ever and will ever happen.

This is a logical fact. There is NO proper counter argument for it. It is one of the reasons the protestant churches were founded.

 

[2hot2handle]

When god made the first atom's he would have known how they would react with one another. Who would be born, what they would be like, how they would act and how they would think. He knows that about everyone, so creating it as he did he knew exactly what would have happened and chose through the act of creation everything that has ever and will ever happen.

This is a logical fact. There is NO proper counter argument for it. It is one of the reasons the protestant churches were founded.

Predestination . I have no qualms with accepting God was aware of everything from the first atom to infinity . However predestination doctrine teaches God chose who will be saved and who will be damned . This is totally incoherent with free will and makes it pointless. If God predestined everything , that changes everything .
But by creating something and being aware of what will happen from said actions , doesn't make you responsible for them .
Again I have children , I can envisage how their lives will turn out if they choose a particular path , for good and for bad , if they choose bad that is not my choice , it is theirs.
Again this is something we are looking at from our own understanding and logic.
God exist out of that . We can't ever contemplate understanding everything from the first atom , I can't even understand my own life .. maybe thats why I believe in God . I cannot accept this world in all its wonders and magnificent order has not been planned by someone with far superior intelligence and has some higher purpose.

<3

 

[2hot2handle]

It's an analogy, so no need to relate it explicitly I'm going to answer to the bolded part: what if the architect never answers your questions? Would the hope of getting an ideal house be enough for you?

As long as he kept on building the house , I would soon get my answers ... A direct answer isn't the only way to receive an answer.

<3

 

[DeletedUser]

If I roll a ball at an exact angle with an exact speed at another ball. I know what will happen..

Tell me, what will happen?

 

[2hot2handle]

Tell me, what will happen?

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0013321/thescience.html

 

[DeletedUser]

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0013321/thescience.html

This proves what?

 

[2hot2handle]

This proves what?

It was meant to prove something ?

<3

 

[DeletedUser]

I really don't know what to argue with this: but i'm pretty sure nothing's certain (except math - and even logic). :/

^ (and that, even my point is not certain. o.0)

 

[DeletedUser92119]

Okay you probably dont understand because we are speaking of the complex. But boil it down, and then apply the understanding of the boiled down statement to the whole.

If I roll a ball at an exact angle with an exact speed at another ball. I know what will happen. So it will do what I made it do, I may not have "made" it do it in the purest sense, but through the act of rolling it and knowing what would happen I could have made it do what ever I wanted. I could have made it roll backwards, which would be different but I didnt.


When god made the first atom's he would have known how they would react with one another. Who would be born, what they would be like, how they would act and how they would think. He knows that about everyone, so creating it as he did he knew exactly what would have happened and chose through the act of creation everything that has ever and will ever happen.

This analogy does not work. You are directly commanding the ball to roll in the direction you chose. In order for this analogy to make sense, you would need to give the ball the ability to roll where ever it wanted, but still know what it was going to chose.

This is a logical fact. There is NO proper counter argument for it. It is one of the reasons the protestant churches were founded.

firstly, dont ever end an argument with that statement. It will get you nowhere in life.

second, the protestant church was founded so that the English King at the time could divorce his wife without get the "ok" from the pope (whom he was not on good terms with).


@kiwi- lol