Elite VS Mass recruting-Debate

[DeletedUser]

Interesting discussion. From my experience in both mass recruited and premades the ultimate success factor comes down to discipline and the ability to achieve coordination. Discipline is actually easier with mass recruited tribes, anyone kicked quickly becomes another farm or gets nobled. In premades, you have preexisting relationships that can get strained and the fighting can be more bitter and personal. In almost every world, its the well disciplined premades that jump to the top spot and take the core Ks. Less disciplined premades still do well individually but the lack of cohesion often drives the leadership to frustration and the tribe to failure.

Ultimately, any successful tribe needs to have a core of talented players that can match up to the competition in the tribes starting K and a source of new blood to keep the tribe alive as the talent quits. Anyone can be taught this game if they are willing to learn and remain active. The best early game players tend to also be the first to quit once a new world opens so without new players to replace them the early top tribes collapse.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Awesome post. 'Noobs' are constantly mocked. Those who proclaim themselves 'Elite' or 'Vets', are happy to sit back and openly repute these newcomers to be useless, and/or intelectually lacking, whereas actually, it as you say; everone has the ability and capacity to learn, it is the players that lack the patience to do so that deserve the redicule.

 

[DeletedUser]

Only support from intribe.

Otherwise im afraid yourd have etc

richard1
richard2

etc etc

Good idea in principal , hard idea to execute and not be abused

Not necessarily too difficult if you think about it.

For example, the way I would do it would be to use a world with the support that can only come from (or go to) fellow tribemembers, but add a clause to the code/script upon running the Support button. The clause would check if any of your villages currently have 4 or more nobles heading toward the village (outside of the tribe) that shall be supported, and if the landing time would be before or after that of the nobles.

The problem then being that you could only support villages outside of the tribe that you yourself would be nobling, rather than tribemates'.

 

[pissfer]

True, that would be a useful "requirement"

Another idea: Limit the amount of allies allowed for that world (no more than 10 for instance, and I'm sure most of you will say that's too much) and allow support only within the alliance. Otherwise there would be little use of alliances, and a 10 person tribe is a little TOO small to have to support within the tribe only (although that could arguably be the reason for this world)

 

[DeletedUser]

People would rotate alliances as the need for support arises.

 

[DeletedUser]

Oooo....

I think most things have been said, so I'll just reiterate a few points.

Both ways of tribing ( new word? Tribing? Hee hee! ) have advantages and disadvantages. But I really do agree with what people said about how many such premades aren't really full of elite players, but rather wannabes. I mean, lots of players have a seriously inflated ego, and consider themselves to be an elite just because they happened to get a few million points on some world, or were ranked high by pointwhoring the first few days of a world.

I guess mass-recruiting is basically the same as family tribes? Because that's sort of my origin. On W2 ( and at this, shouts of tribalhugging, merge-fests and family tribes echo across the forum! ) I was a part of a family tribe. I think, at the most, we had... 12 tribes. Man, did we have a lot of crappy players! But over a period of a few months, we cut down this number pretty drastically. In fact, it came down to... one. This was a combination of a) getting our butts handed to us through a few wars, b) inactivity and c) players jumping ship.

The end result? A core of battle-hardened player who were able to turn the tide in a war against a tribe twice our size, and hold even against a family tribe five ( more like six at times, actually ) times our size. Ironically, we're now once again in a two-tribe family with that big hunkin' family tribe, but that's besides the point.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that mass-recruiting will sometimes lead to a pretty good tribe, simply because the massive numbers of players, when properly filtered, leads to a core of good players.

As for my experience with premades... I dunno about other of you fellas, but I can rarely focus on more than one world at a time. While I consider myself to be a rather decent player, I can rarely be bothered to put the effort necessary into a new world. I guess others might feel the same way. And I definitely agree with what someone said about how a one or two players hold such tribes together, and about the in-fighting. Often a lot of strong personalities.

As a side-note, I'm currently residing in a mass-recruit tribe on W46 - no member limit ftw! Just for kicks and giggles. It's really quite... interesting.

 

[DeletedUser]

This isn't really much of a debate without giving an answer to what makes an Elite tribe, Elite.
Define that, and you'll probably come to realize, a true elite tribe will crush mass numbers of players any day of the week.

That said, there are factors to consider here if you want to debate the topic at all.

How long of a period are we talking about?
Is it a straight up clash of the two tribes, or the life of a world?
Are we considering this at early game, or late game?
Can you define a tribe at any one stage of the game as being elite, or do they need to live the life of a world?

The will to continue playing is what drives the success of a lot of tribes.

The reason mass recruit tribes get the reputation they have, is because they recruit everything, leaving little action, or fun for the tribe, members then get bored. They lose the will to continue on because what's the point, more barbs, more internals, they move on to new worlds to find some excitement, for what fun is a game without excitement? That leaves even more internals, more inactives, and sooner or later, if this tribe is ever hit, the tribe hitting them takes a pile of easy villages, giving the remaining players little hope, beause 70% of their tribe is inactive.


The 'Elite' tribes, I generally choke on the word, but the elite tribes have the same issues with will to play. They are generally more aggressive, war mongering folk, who do nothing but war. But in the end they drive their competition out rapidly, and they are left with the same issue, how do you keep your tribe excited to the point they don't lose the will to play. You start to noble large barbs from players you've driven to quit, and tons of inactive players in these mass recruit tribes, you then have to turn to your own internals as *real life* takes some of your members away, when in reality they've lost the will to continue on, will likely take a break for a couple of weeks, then join a new world.

Most premades die, because the excitement for many of these players is the early game, regardless of the fact there is little to do on an account, you have to be active, there's a lot of competition in the core, and it can show glimpses of where this game actually requires some skill, via backtiming, and manipulating the field around you for survival. Once you get to the 100-200 village mark, it starts to become a chore that quickly wears on these guys who thrive off the 1 on 1 fight, and being able to drive their opponent out of the game. Then they get to 300 to 400 villages, and quickly find reasons not to play.


So it brings us back to the question of

What is an elite tribe?

I don't know the state of many worlds out there, only having played for glimpses in Worlds 8, 14 & 19, so I can't say if there are any elite tribes out there.

However to me an elite tribe is one that screens their recruits, but not to find the best players in the game, but to find ones that have staying power and potential.

They take the time to teach their members the finer nuances of the game, and at the same time find ways to keep their members exited, motivated, and connected, so they'll not lose the will to continue on.
Inactivity is a cancer that quickly spreads, keep your players active, or eventually the tribe will die.

All tribes constantly need blood transfusions, as members will slowly disappear, few tribes that last a long time have the same members they started with. Even if you think your elite, know that your going to have to recruit, and if you snub everyone around you, good luck to you.

If a tribe isn't willing to put the effort into it's membership, then the effort will be reciprocated, and the tribe will fizzle fast.



I feel like I'm rambling....

 

[DeletedUser]

Interesting discussion! As the Duke of the previously mentioned Ouzo on W41 I would like to add my opinions.

Mass Recruiting tribes simply do not work but they serve a purpose. Generally you get someone who has played the game before make an attempt to form a powerful tribe. The tribes generally do not last long but usually a couple of good players will emerge from them. In Ouzo I had a couple of "noobs" that came from other tribes that learned the game quickly and have developed into pretty good players. As a Duke, activity is the key, I would be more willing to take someone who is extremely active versus an experienced player who is playing multiple worlds and has little time. The rest of the game we can teach.

Premades - Yes, we came from DNY in W12 and tried to keep a low profile in the early stages by hiding out in small tribes scattered across the core. It worked until we were exposed by someone who figured out we were all working together. IMO, this is the only way to go. If you are going to enter a world as a premade keep a low profile for as long as possible. The early stages of the world are simply a dog fight where you are simply looking to dominate your local area. You really do not want to bring attention to yourself until you have control over your local area. But if you are going to enter the world as a premade be ready to make quick adjustments or you will die. Experienced players get disinterested fast and you need to work the diplomacy and keep your tribe replenished with active players. On W41 Ouzo is no longer but the players that are left are now in OCD. If you stick to just the players you come to the world with then inactivity will kill off the tribe.

My 2 cents. :icon_wink:

 

[DeletedUser]

I will add to Red's comments. As the current Duke of OCD, I witnessed firsthand the mass recruitment that occurred in Ouzo. The tribe Ouzo was formed by a large group of players from the Greek servers. This was a double edged sword though. They proved themselves to be a blend of experienced and not so experienced players and they were flamed excessively for mass recruiting. With this said, once I was recruited into Ouzo, the mass recruitment was halted and the building of a decent tribe began. I was part of the 'hidden premade' that came from w12 and my role was to control Ouzo from within.

Our first objective was to remove the main threat in our area. This consisted of a tribe called oooops! and they were highly rated to be an elite tribe that would one day control a large part of the world. As such, my 'hidden premade' leader - Emperor Taizu- saw the threat as it was and we acted. We had the power of a mass recruitment tribe at our disposal and we concocted a cat party for our 'neighbours'.

In one day, the 2nd largest mass recruitment tribe in W41 had removed what was rated as a world leading tribe. How was this done? Good coordination of the offensive and the willingness of the Ouzo players to blindly trust our leadership skills. Add to this that our 'hidden premade' tribemates were scattered through more than 5 tribes, ooops! were smacked out of the ball park very quickly. Our premade would have struggled to do it in one day, but the overwhelming firepower of Ouzo made it extremely easy.

TW is a war game. Everyone should study how the Allies wore down the German army in WW2. The allies had inferior equipment, but they had more tanks, more rifles and more men. German war technology was well ahead of the allies and Germany was considered to be the better army at the time. If compared to TW, the Germans would be your premade/elitist tribe. Their tanks were better, their rifles were more accurate, but they still lost the war.

Ultimately, I'm not fussed about elite tribes or mass recruiters. What counts is quality leadership and players that are willing to learn the game and listen to their leaders. Additionally, good leaders are willing to recruit unknown players and give them the chance to become elite players. If they are no good, eat them. If they turn out to be good fighters, you just scored a top player that your enemy may have recruited instead.

I'll happily lead a mass recruiting tribe with players that listen to the leadership group's orders and wars effectively, over a group of selfish players that think their shit doesn't stink and ultimately causes internal issues (MaccyD, Legacy and later Hugger in W41). Go ask the tribes that Ouzo killed in their short time in W41 and ask them what they think of the mass recruiting tribe called Ouzo now while they look back towards the core from the rim...

 

[DeletedUser]

I wouldnt go as far as saying that oooops! was "elite" . That they were experienced is not in question. If i remember correctly oooops! was made up of 25 players and as a tribe ranked top 10 in the world. For a tribe as small and dispersed as they were they handled themselves pretty well nobling village after village with impunity.

oooops! was made up of people who were (at the very least) versed in the art of war a fact that was reaffirmed over and over by their penchantnt for acquiring "prime pieces of real estate" banishing their original owners to the rim in the process . The smartest thing OUZO ever did on W41 was recognizing their exsistence as a threat and dispatching them efficiently. ; even if their method was slightly underhanded.

That being said the issue here is not if the mass recruting format is viable (under the right kind of leadership anything is viable) rather which of the two formats is ideal and in the long run likely to succede?

This one goes to the so called elitists in my opinion. Say what you want about elitisim but one fact it has succeded in to establishing is that TW players work better in small compact groups. Granted TW is a war game but its "wars" take the form of frequest skirmishes that come in short bursts rather than prolonged combat and if elitisim has done nothing at all it has impressed one truth upon the minds of TW players.:

"Bigger" is not synonymous with "stronger". "More" cant always be translated into success.Speed ,skill and "manuverbility" are prize virtues to be coveted. Experience will always trump Size . Smaller is usually better.


eIo

 

[DeletedUser]

This one goes to the so called elitists in my opinion. Say what you want about elitisim but one fact it has succeded in to establishing is that TW players work better in smaller compact groups. Granted TW is a war game but its "wars" are more frequest skirmishes than actual prolonged combat and elitisim has done nothing at all it has impressed one truth onto the psyche of TW players.
Smaller is usually better.
eIo

I could argue this point up and down. Not because a MRC is going to survive longer, but because the only way for either tribe to survive is to adapt.

An MRC tribe, around the mid stage of a world needs to learn to adapt, pair down to an active roster who will co-ordinate and depend on one another.

An elite tribe, needs to find a way to get over the mid stage hump, and keep their players interested, or start recruiting themselves.

A tribe from start to finish is never the same tribe in the end, it's just a matter of how one learns to adapt. Both tribes can succeed, it's just a matter of adaptation.

 

[DeletedUser]

I could argue this point up and down. Not because a MRC is going to survive longer, but because the only way for either tribe to survive is to adapt.

An MRC tribe, around the mid stage of a world needs to learn to adapt, pair down to an active roster who will co-ordinate and depend on one another.

An elite tribe, needs to find a way to get over the mid stage hump, and keep their players interested, or start recruiting themselves.

A tribe from start to finish is never the same tribe in the end, it's just a matter of how one learns to adapt. Both tribes can succeed, it's just a matter of adaptation.

Adaptation! yes, and this is the point where 90% of all tribe Elite or MRC fail. They fail to see past "what got us here" to see what needs to be done to "take us into the future" Elite tribes become, well... snobbish, they get so full of the early success and so stuck to their "Original roster" that they forget players around them have been watching and learning. Mass recruits seldom seem to look past points as a basis of recruitment. Both styles hold the seeds to their own deaths. One of the few tribes to seemingly overcome this that i know of is Ctrl on w10.

 

[DeletedUser]

Adaptation! yes, and this is the point where 90% of all tribe Elite or MRC fail. They fail to see past "what got us here" to see what needs to be done to "take us into the future" Elite tribes become, well... snobbish, they get so full of the early success and so stuck to their "Original roster" that they forget players around them have been watching and learning. Mass recruits seldom seem to look past points as a basis of recruitment. Both styles hold the seeds to their own deaths. One of the few tribes to seemingly overcome this that i know of is Ctrl on w10.

Good to see you Angacam ~
Hoping to make it a second tribe you know of on W32, we miss you here!

 

[DeletedUser]

Good to see you Angacam ~
Hoping to make it a second tribe you know of on W32, we miss you here!

Yes, Hate/Time could do it as well. Same basic mentality the ability to adapt was shown there when it became needed to recreate the whole identity of the tribe to enable it to move forward.

 

[DeletedUser]

This a fundamantal question and thats a nice topic.

My idea is that the best answer is always somewhere inbetween.

If you make a tribe full of so called elites then the tribe can be actualy headless when there are some serious issues.
Elite players tent to have strange personalities and there are hard to handle. However, if someone manage to make them
play under the same tribal rules then they can provide a massive gun power. Also the forum and reputation impacts are
too serious not to consider and they can go either way.

If you mass recruit then you have to be carefull and strict. Mass recruit has to be followed by mass dissmisals. This can cause hate and
then your tribe can be a target right from the beginning. If you have though the time to train them correctly then they can provide some
good gun power. Also mass recruit since its an average selecting process might cause some loyalty and spy problems too.
Last when you plan for a war with a mass recruit formed tribe you have always to take under account that only a proportion will be involved.

The best thing to do according to what i believe is to gather some elite friends from a variety of worlds in order to promote your tribe and make it
famous. This will help you to turn from a beggar to a chooser. Also it is better to form the main core with players that the current world is their (magic number) 3rd.
This is because they have some relative experience and they are still hungry for the game.

While you are playing though and after some time some merges and some academy will help you to offload and train some new players.

In the end i think that the most valiable players are the ones that have endurance rather than skill.

 

[DeletedUser]

World 46 should settle this debate nicely. =A= with 50ish members and SDA with over 1300.


Go =A=.

 

[DeletedUser]

The one thing I miss from the very first tribe I ever played in (yes, it was a mass recruit family tribe) is the willingness to help out no matter what the cost. It is a great feeling having your tribemates willing to sacrifice all of their rather pathetic troop-counts to prevent you from being rimmed.

Every since then I've joined "better" tribes with people who have an idea what their doing ingame and not complete beginners. I find there is a greater attitude of every-man-for-himself, especially during start-up. You get minimal defensive support from your tribe and if you get cleared or something you're pretty much on your own. I know thats an exaggeration but I do feel that the "good' tribes can often seem like a group of individual players doing their own thing if that makes any sense.

 

[DeletedUser]

The one thing I miss from the very first tribe I ever played in (yes, it was a mass recruit family tribe) is the willingness to help out no matter what the cost. It is a great feeling having your tribemates willing to sacrifice all of their rather pathetic troop-counts to prevent you from being rimmed.

Every since then I've joined "better" tribes with people who have an idea what their doing ingame and not complete beginners. I find there is a greater attitude of every-man-for-himself, especially during start-up. You get minimal defensive support from your tribe and if you get cleared or something you're pretty much on your own. I know thats an exaggeration but I do feel that the "good' tribes can often seem like a group of individual players doing their own thing if that makes any sense.

We didn't have that issue at all on W32 with Hate/Time.

When someone said they were under attack, the attacker quickly had 40 inbound attacks, with cats/scouts, or whatever troops were needed, and dealt with quickly, and the defender had the troops needed to defend and resources to get back up on their feet quickly.

It's about setting up a structure to your forums, and the distress calls being written properly, so they could be answered quickly.

We had our first war with a tribe who were deemed to be one of our biggest threats, and likely to succeed over us, before there were nobles, and we catted them into submission.

Co-ordination trumps Chaos in the end.

 

[DeletedUser]

The thing that makes mass recruitment tribes less viable is that they do not undergo the natural selection process that a smaller “elite” tribe does. By saying this I mean that mass recruitment tribes allow anyone and everyone in which by default creates an environment that gives a bulk of players who, for whatever reason, cannot compete at the game virtually immunity against one another.

It’s important to remember that in all aspects of life (including TW) competition drives progress and these players are never weeded out. A secondary effect of the mass recruitment is that the players who, for whatever reason, possess the skills to excel at the game are hindered in their ability to grow because they’re targets are severely limited by their tribe’s recruitment/diplomatic policies.

Adversely an “Elite” tribe begins composed of proven skillful players and they grow by “eating” players who were not skilled enough to defend themselves. If an elite tribe ever runs across a skilled player they usually bring them into the fold.

While I do believe that a well organized group of smaller players can take out a big player that principal doesn’t apply when your tribe is almost entirely made up of people who log in once a day only to set 2 buildings in queue and a few people who are skilled but were never given the chance to grow at a rate to make themselves viable threats/benefits to “elite” tribes.

 

[DeletedUser95815]

Combination

Personally, at the start of creating a tribe (on a new world) I use a tough recruitment process and get players to be account checked regularly. The benefits of this being that you get a firm member base. Then the recruitment gets a little less tough, however, it still filters out the inactive and generally inexperienced players. I believe that when you have a firm member base then it is better because you have less chance of your tribe ending in failure.

 

[DeletedUser]

well i can think of an analogy here..


an elite tribe: 300 spartans
a mass recruitment tribe: emperor xerxes army

yeah the 300 killed a hell of a lot of xerxes' men... but didnt the 300 die in the end?