Open Letter between Samulis and Inty

samulis

Guest
Players of World 17-

Two weeks ago, I had a little chat with the so-called 'Leader' of Wisdom, Integritous. I have decided to share with all of you the complete, original, and un-edited correspondence. I started an investigation into Wisdom after hearing about the new World 17 Blogger. That led me to learn about Wisdom and its original magnificence- and of its leaders. I investigated the system and chatted with a number of barons and players of the tribe- their names shall not be said here for their own sake. Finally, I mailed Inty with my findings and recommended him the following:

Samulis to Integritous
[spoil]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Integritous,

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]O[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ver the past two years, I have studied and compiled pages of information on Governments in TW, especially the Feudal System, your chosen government system. As a leading authority of Government in TW, I feel I have a few bits of advice and constructive criticism that will turn your tribe, Wisdom, into a creative powerhouse.

As a man of words and of social sciences, it has come to my attention that there is a slight friction occuring in your tribe. Do not be alarmed that I know of this, for I am good with both secrets and solving afflictions to tribes. I am here to give you good, solid advice that I can guarantee will save your tribe. I can assure you, I am no agent of your foes, nor am I an agent of your own tribe. I am neutral, and I wish to save your tribe simply because I appear to be the only one seeing this friction clearly.

In the recent months, the rights and privileges of your subordinates have been violated on multiple occasions. What I mean by this is that the demotions and attempts to demote a number of subordinates are un-grounded and are going to risk you a war... a war you cannot bear to loose.

As we speak, your members are unsure of what is going on... there is chaos... there is fear... there is no order. The primary goal of any effective government is to give order to disorder... and to give orders. If you do not want to take control of your own creation, I might as well take over an account in your tribe and lead for you... I, the 100.000 point player, leading wisdom to victory. It would be a sad moment for most of us.

What you need to do is simple. Re-evaluate your system. Do not remove any subordinate unless they are inactive or have committed a serious war crime. Instead of being paranoid (like me), focus on setting up a network of your most trusted, and preparing yourself to lead.

You are going to be a real-life diplomat, I hear. That is most excellent, for it is a field where few are wise enough to play, and the simple fact that you are wise enough to take that office is clearly a marker of your aura of leadership. However, diplomats don't lead. When diplomats make agreements, they represent the voice of the state, and the state is their master. When leaders make agreements, they ARE the state. They have no master and no command (except under a strongly constitution-influenced Republic or a pure Democracy. There, the people or the signers of the constitution have direct influence on the decision of the leader). As leader, you are here to take command and to give commands. You are here not to write treaties, but to win wars and to prove that you are, indeed, the wisest, bravest, and best among the crowd. You cannot do that if your tribe is lopsided, crooked, and stuck using old tricks. You cannot lead if your view is crooked and you are stuck using old leaders and tricks.

To bring your tribe's government forward, you should find your MOST EFFECTIVE (NOT FAVORITE) generals (probably two) and make them your top level of the system- your personal vassals, or the Dukes. You will still be head duke, but these two will help you run the show (trust me... three is always better than one... I know from experience).

Then, have your four to eight MOST ACTIVE and MOST HELPFUL generals/subordinates take up the next ring- the barons. By purging the baron ring of inactives and no longer goal-oriented barons, you will remove the wasted resources your tribe is loosing.

Before I continue, let me speak quickly about appropriate subordinate judging. When you are deciding on subordinates, you must NOT think about any previous confrontations. Your barons will be revealed to you through tasks you have given them before. If they complete the tasks, then they are good. For instance, if a baron can lead a continent to advance upon the enemy through explaining tactics and getting coordination work, then they are good. An example of a bad baron is one who sits around and posts in the forum once every week. Those barons should be demoted immediately (read about the first point of any good government- Communication, later). Any duke that does not post in the forum more than once every few days or send a mass message updating the tribe on recent happenings every month (or help with that) should also be demoted immediately.

The flaw in your tribe is a mixture of inactive and ineffective leaders, the lack of centralized government (because you, serving as duke, are not strong enough, no matter how great of a person you are... any other person, certainly including me, could not try harder or do better), and paranoia on your half. By establishing a system that will work by using your subordinates to do the work, your job will be freed up... but that doesn't mean you can relax. As founder, you are supposed to be the MOST active, the MOST vigilant. Because you are a duke as well, your job is magnified. Failure to bring your part to the table in this playing field means inevitable death.

You need to trust your subordinates to survive on the world and make your government a sucess, for there are three main points of successful government:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Communication[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Trust[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Activity[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your tribe is missing ALL THREE points. You don't trust your subordinates, the tribe does not communicate enough, and does not reach to use external (and more powerful) communication platforms such as Skype, IRC, or Ventrillo, and lastly, you, and many of your regime, are not active enough.
If you want to win this war, you have to put in that 110%. If you want to see your creation, and the last year or so of your life in TW go to waste, then just give up. You also have a third option, to bring forward other players to take up the call. To give organization and order and then give that order to your subordinates... and watch the full power of a pure Feudal system hit with blunt force against your foes. It's a Dictatorship now with a few organized city-states lying around. Let's see if you can change that.

By re-organizing your government, you can revitalize it. Make your players more active by giving more orders, have every baron plan a strategy for his continent. Make a skype channel for dukes, one for barons, and one for the whole tribe. Have nightly or bi-weekly meetings in these channels to discuss strategy, ideas, etc. Use screen sharing to show plans, find someone who can write guides, revise your laws and make sure you have rules outlining how players should build villages and nukes and defenses. If you put this effort in, you WILL get results out.

The amount of results depends on your tribe's activity. Make sure your ruling regime is ACTIVE and prepared to work. If they are not, give them a warning that you mean business and that everyone had better get their act together or they go.

After you do changes, you will need to make one last change- your Free Speech policy. You MUST let players criticize you in ANY MANNER and you MUST accept that criticism without ANY hard feelings. If you kick players for dissenting, you are showing more arrogance than any Feudal king would... the arrogance that shows is that of a cruel single-minded Dictator... which DOES NOT make The People happy. By listening to what the people say, even if they call you a dissenter, a moron, an idiot, a fool, whatever they do, and listen to what they say like 'Why don't we do ___!' and pooling those ideas together, you can later present them as list to your subordinates in a skype channel and go down the list- ideas that work, you can keep and play around with. With your subordinates, you have many minds at your fingertips- many different prospectives and views. Those views will help make equal changes to ideas and make them more goal-oriented.

Open up to having your top-level (duke) subordinates vote with you on things. Let them help make decisions and actually give them problems to work through, while you tackle some. It is less work for everyone then, and at no cost.

Hopefully you have read this. If so, I hope you will take action and save your afflicted dream. If not, then my best wishes follow you in life, and I hope that if you ever create another tribe, you follow some of my advice.

Thank you for your precious time,

-Samulis, World 9 Blog Staff, Duke of Gods~W (Monarchy, Retired Feudal System), founder of the City-States of Isilith (Republic/Feudal System), the Croatian Empire (Feudal System), along with dozens of other tribes and alliances.
[/FONT]
[/spoil][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


Integritous to Samulis
[spoil]

Cheers mate,

At first, upon reading this, I was going to reply by asking if you are known to me, and ask you to identify yourself if I know you in-game. But I learned reading farther in to your very carefully thought out message that in fact you do not know me.

Many of your insights are keen and incisive, it is always a relief on this bloody forum which I generally detest to find men of letters and intellect roaming about. That said, I must correct you about a few of your misconceptions. After I've done that, brought you up to the point of an accurate awareness of Wisdom, I am happy to continue a conversation if you'd like. You certainly are no foe of ours, I can tell from your approach and the content of your missive.

First and perhaps above all, I have never punished anyone in my tribe for speaking their mind, and I never would. However, as in RL, we must differentiate between someone saying, "respectfully, Mr. President, I believe our best course ahead does not lie with X then Z as you propose, but rather C & H at once, because of A & B...." and "go frack yourself you Presidential boob! You iz dum!"

Right? Right. Now, I am more patient than most Dukes with verbal diarrhea directed at myself, but when I see it hurled at those under my command my actions are swift and their effects immutable.

Also, I'm not sure which personnel issues you are intending to refer me to, as it pertains to demotions. I have not demoted anyone in my tribe in many months, and then certainly not for the reasons you claim. In fact, four Barons/Dukes from Wisdom resigned their post two months ago, and as you may not be aware, I was one of those four. So despite the well-intentioned letter you've written, I'm afraid that I have not led Wisdom since April.

My goal in playing TW was to experiment with various interactive styles and to contemplate the human condition and the various social aspects of our wonderful species, and as a side bar I chose to found a tribe in the suburban fields of the Southeast, and see whether my collected Wisdom could bring it to the top of our continental rankings, in K76. The fact that I was further able to bring us to the very top of the ailing food chain two years later was a surprise, and I believe it spoke more to the limitations of my competition than anything, though I have been proud to serve with many brave warriors in my time.

A final note on your rule of three. I wholeheartedly agree with you about that, and for a long while did have two incredibly capable and loyal lieutenants who served as Dukes under my overarching high leadership, etc. Those were blessed times, and Oiceboxvay and Sumosland top my list of players of this game of any I've seen on any world from 4 to 50.

I'm sorry I can't dialog further... as I said it would be difficult for me to accurately comment on Wisdom's current predicaments, since I have not led that tribe in two months.

War with honour,

Integritous [/spoil]



Samulis to Integritous
[spoil]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Integritous,

You have fallen sway from the righteous path! This, I am convinced! You forced a baroness to step down because of, what to her eyes, was seen by you as a coup... led by the female aristocracy. If I have ever heard of a more ridiculous excuse of excessive dictatorship, I would recount it to you, but the only thing worse than that is kicking out your own players for FUN. Stepping down because of what you said to them IS indirect demotion. You removed some of your finest because of your failure to make decisions to suit everyone's needs. As duke, that is your first priority; To ensure that all of the tribe are treated properly and the proper freedoms and privileges are applied equally to those who are capable and not to those who are incapable.

Where you have gone astray the most is your priorities. Here are your new priorities that should fix half of your issues. Whenever you are about to take an action, figure out where it fits the best on this list. If it contradicts a higher-up priority (even the slightest), then you are not to carry out that plan WITHOUT a vote of the Barons. What they decide is final- you don't vote or have a say in it. Their decision then gives you an answer. If they say no, and you carry out that plan, then you are disobeying the law of the tribe... that's clearly breaching your responsibilities as a leader.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Priorities of the Noble Leader:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]The rights of all members [/FONT][FONT=&quot]are respected and all barons are properly respected as independent rulers of their own fiefdoms, and only called upon by their honor and in times of direct need.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The tribe [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is to be equally and harmoniously run. The Duke is not to make decisions affecting the entire tribe, except in times of desperate need on the tribe's behalf.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The laws[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are to be respected at all times. Failure to respect the rules of the tribe reflect negatively on the leader, showing neglect of his own value system.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The Interests of Allies and Neutral forces[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are to be respected always. Failure to respect ones allies and neutral forces is failure to respect ones own agreements.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The interests of your fellow Dukes[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are above yours and you are to obey them, no matter if they conflict with yours. Especially if a majority of the dukes side with that interest. If a majority side against it, then you may resist it, but you may NOT act on it as long as A SINGLE DUKE AGREES WITH THAT INTEREST.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The interests of the Barons [/FONT][FONT=&quot]are to account for your own personal interests and are to be respected.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The Interests of the Players[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are to account for parts of the Baron's interests and are to be respected and seen as equal advice.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The Rights of the enemies of the tribe[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are to be respected always. If your enemy asks to have conference, then you are to write or speak to him, regardless of your own personal feelings towards him. The enemy shall be treated with respect and there shall be no attempts to make him look foolish during the discussion.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The Interests of the Yourself[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are the lowest priority on your list. The Founder should put himself in the way of enemy fire to protect his own people. He should be merciful to all his subordinates. Lastly, he should be not a figure in a shining spotlight, but live in modesty and on an equal plane of living to his barons, if not his members.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you make one more decision based off of your own paranoia, your members will begin to see your flaw. Leaders should never openly expose their paranoia or worries about the tribe because it promotes dissenters' cause. What you have done so far is nothing short of madness. You were once a great king, but now you are no more than a great liar, a brigand of the hood, a servant to your own immoral and immortal ambition. You serve yourself inside, and no other force. That is the first marking of a dictator. You truly should serve the Barons. They are the people who check you and balance out that last priority in you.

In a proper Feudal system, although the Lords and Earls bow to the King, the King truly bows to them in thanks for their aid and agreement to keep their fiefdom as part of his Kingdom. The King in a Feudal system is both Regal and Modest. Think of Charlemagne- He traveled around his kingdom most of his reign overseeing his system, ensuring domestic tranquility, building schools, castles, walls, cities, roads; everything needed to uphold the growth and proper maintenance of his Kingdom. He checked over his lords to make sure they were obeying his commands, and often gave them a personal visit and a large thanks for fulfilling their personal responsibilities to the crown.

If I could compare you to a past ruler, it would be a hard decision between Nero and Count Vlad the Impaler. With all due respect, you fail to communicate effectively with your subordinates and fail to even speak of that. In fact, you fail to even listen and take advice off of them. On multiple occasions, you have overridden the decisions of the Barons. That is not only foolish, it is a death warrant in a Feudal System. If you don't want to respect the decisions of seven minds, then certainly one mind, your mind, is not enough to make the decision.

Being fed up with subjects not saying things in proper English is something I understand, but this is both an international community and a community with a vast spectrum of ages. Being fed up with your subjects because of WHAT they say is something I cannot understand. I have gotten 'Yo sam! this stupid idiot keeps on posting mean stuff in teh forums. Go kick his behind!'

What I do with that is I take it in as a comment, read it the best I can, and figure out who the subject is, then I fix the problem. I don't say, "Can you respond in English?" I don't get angry. I don't ignore him. I work FOR the people and for their rights and privileges to enjoy a free style of game-play.

Also, Sumo and Oice were not your luitenants. They were free Dukes that you are envious of and you simply don't want to admit that they respected their subordinates, you just like saying 'Sumo did a great job!' Why don't you say 'Sumo and Jehosophat did a great job!' What you are doing is dishonest and it is NOT respecting your fellow dukes or barons. Also, if I am correct, you forced all three; Sumo, Oice, and Jehosophat; to step down simply because you didn't like how they led. If the President of the United States of America was allowed to remove his subordinates freely, would he remove his Vice President simply because he organizes his papers on his desk differently? I think NOT! That is why this is madness!

Every good leader throughout history has had and seen his or her flaws. George Washington saw the respect people gave him as a flaw- the reason why he turned down becoming King George was that he saw this flaw and did not want to fall to the grasps of hubris. Julius Caesar died because he was loyal to his people more than his rich aristocratic allies.

It is nowhere more symbolic of ignored flaws than in the Ancient Greek hero of Achilles. His flaw was his vulnerable heel. He did not see this flaw because of his hubris, and thus died because of Paris taking a shot at his heel with an arrow.

Your flaw, as I have said before, is your hubris and your ignorance of the fact that you do not lead yet remain the sole leader. Why lead the top tribe on a world and not actually do anything? That's hubris. Your pride tells you that you are immortal because of your words, yet here you only shall live until Wisdom dies, regardless of what your pride tells you. Hubris, that cancerous canker-sore that feasts on your past life, is destroying Wisdom. Swallow it, restore your dukes, and fix the order of things as I prescribed earlier by:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Creating skype or similar chat channels.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Holding mandatory leader's meetings to discuss strategy- make those verbal (if you can) to reduce the chance of spies and to make it so more can be done faster... and it shows trust.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Give awards to players who preform the best- most noblings, most noblings of the enemies, etc.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Open up yourself to your players more- ask them to send you their opinions or create a forum topic called 'The Feedback Box' with a few categories (see the next message in your inbox) that players need to fill out.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
If you still think you can brush off that hubris lightly, then you are a fool. If you want to save your dream, you will have to cut it off like a cancerous blister- through an extensive re-thinking of your personal philosophy of life.

-Samulis[/FONT]

[/spoil]



Integritous to Samulis
[spoil]
Well now Samwise you have gotten rather humorous. I am sorry to disabuse you of what is obviously a very earnestly held belief, but you are mistaken about so many incredible facts upon which you base your castigations that it would be quite tedious to correct you in every instance. For example, Sumosland and I were always on the best of terms and his decision to leave TW had nothing to do with our relationship. The same was true of Oiceboxvay. She made only one mistake in two years, I would hardly ask someone to resign for that. You are aware I imagine of her global ban?

No, the players who resigned are myself and Babyteeth. I stepped down sir. You realise that of course? You tell me I've fallen far from my righteous path, but that is giving me too much credit! How can I fall from a path when I cease to exist at all? I say again as my statistics will show you, I have not played this game in many months! Perhaps you should spare me the effort and just identify yourself to me so at least I can place your increasingly evident bias in to context.

I'm sorry you have spent so much time trying to right an errant Duke that is not errant at all, simply dead. But I don't know what I can do for you since it is not I who hold sway in Wisdom.

If you wish to have a philosophical discussion we may proceed, but as to Wisdom herself I cannot help you! I agree with most of what you say as to leadership, except that I more likely resemble Julius Caesar than the two you mention, for better and worse.

Take care and good luck in your other world,

Integritous

[/spoil]



My Afterthought Reply:
[spoil]
Caesar never stood down. He never surrendered or left his people. He stood for his people because he had bent his goals to stand for his people. You refuse to give the able the right to lead... why is that? You refuse to let your finest generals lead and refuse to surrender up your arms because you have quit. You are no better than Charlemagne sitting dead on his throne for two-hundred years after his death.
I still don’t get why you are so paranoid of me and my words of wisdom… why do you resist them? Why do you twist them and hold them against me like a poison? You should be fine with that, for all of your words are either poison or reek of lies and contradiction. You call yourself a diplomat. Diplomats don’t lie. I do not lie. I do not dishonor my name by standing for the rights of your once-members and members, nor do I dishonor their name by using my rites and ways to derail your furious campaign against justice, peace, tranquility, and Wisdom. I am no blind old fool- I can see your fall coming; the arrogance shall be your noose and your honor shall be your hangman.

[/spoil]
 

slasher78

Guest
very well put...

Just 1 point Inty.

The only one I seen you really try to fight.......Oxi quit log before her Ban....We had a new player for the account & Oxi was still playing on W47........She quit W17 because of YOU & DONT EVER TRY TO DENY THAT.

Mark.
 

cane9

Guest
Sounds a little fishy to me..

1. Why would Oicebox give someone her password so they could log only onto w17 and not 47?

2. Why would she (a senior in-game mod) let anyone on her account in the first place.

Fishhyyy fish fish..
 

iamcooln3

Guest
Sounds a little fishy to me..

1. Why would Oicebox give someone her password so they could log only onto w17 and not 47?

2. Why would she (a senior in-game mod) let anyone on her account in the first place.

Fishhyyy fish fish..

always starting trouble... I like it :icon_biggrin:
 

slasher78

Guest
Come on guys ....you are all old school players so you are well aware that a MOD does not have power in a world they play....& you can have different passwords for different worlds.....

But yes I do know the Admins messed up when she joined W47.....she had all privs....used them & got banned.....

This is not the point of this thread......
 

cane9

Guest
Mark (I guess thats your name as you signed your first post Mark.. I'm and awesome detective..)

Thats not what I'm saying.

Oiceboxvay of course didn't have privs on w17 as I doubt the Mods would be that stupid.

What I am saying is that Oicebox used her account for w17, and with the same account, join w47.

I don't know how many worlds you have joined with the same account but when you do you use the same account name and the same pass word to access both worlds.

Here and Here you can see that she used the same account for both 17 and 47. So it is quite clear that if she did as she said and quit w17 to let another player use her 17 account then she had to have given her password to her only account, Oiceboxvay.

I just find it a little suspicious that you say she quit and gave the account to someone else as I don't think an in game mod would let a random onto her account.. especially if the account played more then 1 world actively.
 

DeletedUser57892

Guest
Well I spoke with her on Skype when she did quit w17 and she told she would keep playing w47 but it would be a new player on w17. Not sure how it was supposed to work, but that is what she said.
 

cane9

Guest
It's quite possible I just don't see how a Sr In game mod would give away her password to someone so they could only log into w17 and not w47 (which she played actively still)

Also wouldn't that be illegal to do seeing as she is an in game mod? (letting a non in game mod access to her account)

Maybe she lied? lol
 

Golvannon

Guest
Hmm, I do seem to recall the sacking of 1 particular baron and making the position of another baron completely untenable...And you may not be playing as in nobling and fighting Inte my friend, but you are certainly excercising duke-type muscle to get your own way. You have shown traits of extreme misogyny in the last month alone! A duke was demoted by you to baron, a baron sacked with "never again will she get privileges in this tribe as long as I am in command!"
For someone who gave over the reins of a winning tribe to another duke, you certainly kept a tight leash. Certainly ran the tribe from the back room and copmplained at every turn the tribe wasn't being run way you wanted. That's called "giving up" mate. Remember that's what you were supposed to be doing?
 

DeletedUser33413

Guest
I dont think this was the best way to 'unvail' Integritous' apparant defects.

Frankly he was a good leader, his team when Wise S was around was originally well organised. I wont have a debate over what leadership style is right as frankly its each to his own but i also dont really agree with how you think Inty should have run his tribe. Thats his decision, many tribes work well the way he runs his tribe...i think you should talior your game to your tribemembers for example to get the best out of them - but that is my opinion.

Obviously there are issues within wisdom, unless you are a member of that social circle (i am not) then i dont think anybody can comment so why post it here so publically when frankly the 'public' no little or nothing as to what is going on in that tribe anyway.

I dont normally defend Inty but he is still actually a good guy, he just made some controversial decisions which not everyone agreed with; Whether because he was not using his head or whether he just believed he was right. If your the leader your supposed to lead, he made the decisions. Unless you were told you were equal then i dont think you have any reason to believe it in terms of heirachy of which you speak.

Anyway basically i dont think you should have done this thats all im saying :icon_neutral:
 

LordBatman

Guest
Rather late in the world to help a paranoid leader of a losing/failing tribe, is it not?
 

zardex

Guest
Cane-nub said:
Fishhyyy fish fish..

you rang? yes, it does interest me oh world 9 blogger how you gained such insight, and if you had approached a different tribe they would have accepted it rather than doing the integritous tactic which involves 'winning' so i think you chose the wrong person in the end.

But i think we have some tips for old froddy eh cane :p
 

cane9

Guest
Hahahaha the one time he happens to read PnP..

Well Adam you know what to do.

RUN!!!!!!!! TO MEXICO!!!
 

void420

Guest
Anyway basically i dont think you should have done this thats all im saying :icon_neutral:

Smells like HaV propaganda designed to keep their members in-line. Integritous not helping much with his answers of course.
 

DeletedUser42977

Guest
Smells like HaV propaganda designed to keep their members in-line. Integritous not helping much with his answers of course.

What do you mean keep our members in line Void? Samulis undertook this on his own... Not as some favor to anyone in HaV?

You are free to ask anyone in HaV if they feel unhappy, inhibited, or afraid to speak out in the tribe. Anyone is free to speak his/her mind and is certainly free to go back to Wisdom (or elsewhere) should that be their desire. We aren't caging our members in with propaganda...

All of that said, this WAS an interesting read, but at least from Integritous' part, rather predictable.
 

LordBatman

Guest
OMG, the HaV underlings have free will!! This would never have happened if the real Inty was still around.
 

MM_HUN

Guest
You are free to ask anyone in HaV if they feel unhappy, inhibited, or afraid to speak out in the tribe. Anyone is free to speak his/her mind and is certainly free to go back to Wisdom (or elsewhere) should that be their desire. We aren't caging our members in with propaganda...

I guess you know that we were hearing the exact same from Inty and half of you about Wisdom, back then when you were in Wisdom, W17's biggest propaganda machine, right?

For me, apples are just apples.
 
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