Open Letter between Samulis and Inty

[samulis]

you rang? yes, it does interest me oh world 9 blogger how you gained such insight, and if you had approached a different tribe they would have accepted it rather than doing the integritous tactic which involves 'winning' so i think you chose the wrong person in the end.

But i think we have some tips for old froddy eh cane

If I sent an equal letter to the first to any leader I have worked with they would have accepted it as constructive, polite, and helpful criticism. They would not have argued against it or called what it entitled lies. I spoken to many people before writing what I wrote, and all their accounts of incidents, events, and behaviors agree with what I wrote.

When I wrote to Inty, I already knew he would fight it. I have dealt with cases such as his before, and sometimes my words are enough to pacify them to my advice. Sadly, Inty was unable to control his pugnacious spirit and he could not dare to even read and comprehend my advice. There was no other person- for there was no equal founder- who could have taken on the information I had presented.

Smells like HaV propaganda designed to keep their members in-line. Integritous not helping much with his answers of course.

I heard of this HaV tribe about twelve hours after I posted this from one of the people I talked to. I am in no way affiliated, supporting, or helping them on purpose. My purpose is to promote a change in the governmental structure of Wisdom so it can rule again as a properly functioning Feudal system. I dislike the usage of all-out Revolution to do such change. Instead, I promote and express Free Press and Free Speech to allow members to openly partake in the revitalization process. The problem with using a Revolution or threatening to use one is that you end up with two combined sides that hate each other in the end... There still is conflict between the southern and northern United States because of a war that happened a hundred-and-forty years ago...

I still would have published my findings even if Inty openly accepted my offered changes. I publish pretty much all of my working papers with other leaders.

I dont think this was the best way to 'unvail' Integritous' apparant defects.

Frankly he was a good leader, his team when Wise S was around was originally well organised. I wont have a debate over what leadership style is right as frankly its each to his own but i also dont really agree with how you think Inty should have run his tribe. Thats his decision, many tribes work well the way he runs his tribe...i think you should talior your game to your tribemembers for example to get the best out of them - but that is my opinion.

Obviously there are issues within wisdom, unless you are a member of that social circle (i am not) then i dont think anybody can comment so why post it here so publically when frankly the 'public' no little or nothing as to what is going on in that tribe anyway.

I dont normally defend Inty but he is still actually a good guy, he just made some controversial decisions which not everyone agreed with; Whether because he was not using his head or whether he just believed he was right. If your the leader your supposed to lead, he made the decisions. Unless you were told you were equal then i dont think you have any reason to believe it in terms of heirachy of which you speak.

Anyway basically i dont think you should have done this thats all im saying :icon_neutral:

I have led tribes using the EXACT same system of government as Inty has for the past two years. I know what I am talking about, my friend. I have spoken to players AND barons of Wisdom, all of that before writing this; thus giving me their own personal views for and against Inty's style. I have analyzed Inty's style of leadership, charted it, and put it through dozens of scenarios to find its proper placement. He is SUPPOSEVELY running what is called a Feudal System.

In a Feudal System, there are many tiers of leaders- the King, then his fellow Dukes, then the Barons/Lords, who look over the Vassals, who look over the Serfs, or common folk. Instead, he is running a one-person show- a Dictatorship. HE directly oversees everyone and makes orders DIRECTLY to them. Not only is that rare in the Feudal System, it is AGAINST it.


One person I talked to stated that 'before all of this, Inty ruled through his Barons. They gave the orders and kept peace.'

That's a Feudal System. This is not. The task I put forward in my letter was simple- figure out what went wrong and propose fixes for it. Notify Inty on how to apply those fixes and ask him to apply them.

Did I do those things? Yes. Did he agree to apply them with reason? No.

 

[DeletedUser]

I see you on w51

 

[Whipped]

God these words are so hard.

 

[DeletedUser33413]

I just dont see why having a dictatorship is a bad idea on this game.

Its not against the rules to change from one way of leading to another, im sure he has his reasons for doing so. You may be knowledgeable in these systems of leadership which are used on here; But at the end of the day it is only your opinion.

Ive been in tribes with a total dictatorship (or there abouts) and one of them was one of the best tribes i have been in until i left that world.

 

[samulis]

Inty leads it like a dictatorship... but from a back room. That's not right here. If you want to lead in TW, you need to step forward and show yourself and actually LEAD... not skulk in a corner and yell and kick people you don't like. It is NOT ok that someone sits in the backseat but drives the car... If he wants to lead as sole dictator, he needs to make himself duke, remove any other dukes, put his name in the tribal profile as the TOP leader, take on all the responcibilities of Duke, and lead for goodness' sake! How can you people ignore the fact that he isn't taking on his responcibilities as leader, but still holds his rights? That's not right. That's against any rule book on government I have seen.

And you're ok that he is a dictator that does nothing but kick people he doesn't like, lie and distort words to get his way, and cause conflict within his own ranks? If you are, then you clearly have never actually seen an actual leader. All leaders hold to themselves a series of truths they find evident within themselves and they are driven to support those truths, rights, and moral values.

Those truths are:

1. The people are the source of power. If they don't like the rule, then they will leave the rule.
2. The Leader is bound to the fate and responsibilities of his actions and to the wishes of his subjects. If he rules poorly, then his subjects will treat him poorly.
3. The Tribe is bound to the fate of the Leader. The leader's actions will effect the fate of the tribe.
4. The World is bound to the fate of all tribes. The leader's actions will effect the fate of the world, and so will his subjects actions.

Those four points effect everyone- new and old. They are everywhere and anywhere, and when pushed the wrong way, will cause disorder. Inty failed to respect the wishes of his subjects and his subordinates, thus he has failed wisdom and the world. He should ask those he has kicked without reason or trial for forgiveness and ask his subjects for guidance, just as most other leaders do. When I am unsure of my next move, I ask my barons for advice. When I am unsure of if a plan will work, I ask my subjects for their feedback.

No tribe should function as a pure dictatorship if it has more than 40 people because you cannot single-handedly receive that amount of information. If you rule poorly as a dictator, the entire tribe could leave you. I have seen it happen before and this is exactly what is happening now. The dictator is realizing that his subjects are abandoning him because he failed to respect their wishes because he ruled with too tight a grasp. He ignored advice. He ignored help. He ignored his own friends, fellow leaders, and his people. This isn't a 'small group of mistakes because he just wasn't thinking', this is a falling Regime- a falling Tribe. Simply because he made that 'group of mistakes because he just wasn't thinking'. And trust me, he is paying big-time for those little mistakes and misjudgments. That is why TW is set up automatically as a Feudal System, where a group of Barons and other Dukes check over your actions and help you... that way the people are represented and carefully taken care of; without having to do it all yourself. He ignored the option I presented him to give his subordinates more responsibilities. He ignored my request that he either give up his rights or take on his responsibilities. Why? Because he, my friends, is no longer a capable ruler. Because now, he, the once-good king, ignores his people and their rights. Is that not wrong?

 

[DeletedUser]

So hows apathy?

 

[Burning GFX]

So hows apathy?

Going to die

 

[DeletedUser]

And you're ok that he is a dictator that does nothing but kick people he doesn't like, lie and distort words to get his way, and cause conflict within his own ranks?

Of course! I'm perfectly content sitting and watching him destroy his tribe; it makes it easier for us to move in.

You realize that people posting here aren't in Wisdom I assume? I'm also going to guess that the Wisdom players you spoke to all/mostly(?) joined HaV at about the same time you were talking to him...

 

[DeletedUser]

Going to die

Agreed on that.. Although there are some cool peeps in that tribe.. meh tribe is SOO much better

 

[Burning GFX]

I know most of Apathy rofl :3

 

[DeletedUser]

Then why aren't you there? Ask holly for an invite and go bug hellfire for me

 

[Nocnoidozor]

I think that you didnt have to study the Wisdom case for so long ,even as im in opinion that there is nothing wrong with your approach ,thing is its the way you see it best ,that doesn't mean its best.
You cant guaranty that your system of leadership is longstanding it depends on many factors in game and RL.

Rather late in the world to help a paranoid leader of a losing/failing tribe, is it not?

Its all more a humane thing , the humane need , lets say belief ... follow

I want to believe , and i believe you do too , i want to say belief is the natural state of things ,its the defalt option.
We believe in all sorts of things ,belief in natural, disbelief , skepticism , science is not natural .

And like eexe. Aliens ,we all want to believe they exist its natural and the reason for that is cos we have belief engine in our brain , we are pattern seeking primates ...
Connecting dots from A to B ,and association learning = A is conected to B is connected to C ,and sometimes its really connected (witch could be your case - meaning that you are right).

And in this process we make two types of errors :

Type A : is believing the pattern is real when is not (finding nonexisting pattern )
Type B : is believing the pattern is not real when it is (non recognizing a real pattern)

An example ,lets say you live in Africa 500 years ago , and you hear a noise coming from the grass when walking in the plains...
Is it a dangerous predator or just a wind ? Your next decision can be the most important one in your life...

If you think that its a predator and it turns out its just the wind , you made a type A error , but its ok no harm done you just keep on going.
On the other hand if you think the noise from the grass is just a wind and it turns our it was a dangerous predator your launch, type B , so 50 % 50 .

So only good solution is believing everything , that all patterns are real ,that every noise in the grass is a vicious predator...

Its like i thing with letters you know that text ,people think they can read it cos their mind have pattern inside by witch it goes by , but many times people make mistake type A error ...

Like when you go into bus and you think people are looking at you talking about you ,well maybe they are ,maybe not ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UBo3jpiuhU

To finish with this ...

Now im not defending Inty nor i know any the whole story of the Wisdom fall down ,for some time i was saying that he is wrong and many things you said . A bad leader with no reason whatsoever .
But yet again this all looks like ' I told you so ' story .
Witch is coming from you ,you blindly believe that your pattern of running a tribe is 100 % right way.
And the moral fall of Intys principles on how he and in witch manner he dealt with his Dukes and Barons is his own .

You clearly know little of W17 and what is this all about.
And you publicly expressing the mails, and trying to pattrenize people in thinking that you ware right is low, in the end you proved nothing .
I still have no respect for Inty ...

 

[DeletedUser33413]

I dont want to reply to everything because i sense that generally the people posting on this thread have tired of it now but Inty didnt used to lead from the backseat as you put it.

He has obviously made the decision to appear as if he does for one reason or another that unless we ask him we wont know the reason for. I will also add that i wouldnt have expected any answers from him that are actually genuine simply because you came from nowhere and fairly forcefully stated why his tribe was failing and how he can make it better.

For somebody who studies Aristocracies (is this right) you dont seem to have studied people's responses, and if you have then you have missed your pitch.

I agree with what you are doing - i like what you are trying to do. If i was in a tribe that over recent months had suffered losses of various sizes i would like to know that there might be somebody to offer a new approach to things.

However you have to be subtle and gentle about it, otherwise people will simply not respond to you in kind.

And you're ok that he is a dictator that does nothing but kick people he doesn't like, lie and distort words to get his way, and cause conflict within his own ranks? If you are, then you clearly have never actually seen an actual leader. All leaders hold to themselves a series of truths they find evident within themselves and they are driven to support those truths, rights, and moral values.

To me you have described a great leader, with one flaw - the conflict within his own ranks part....let me explain.

For me to be happy, need to know that my leader has got everything under controll and understands all aspects of the tribe's policy with regards to growth, diplomacy and internal conflict/resolution issues. This would include knowing when to dismiss players whether its because they just have not integrated into the tribe after joining, they are growing to slowly or whether they are frankly dead weight. So i have no issue with somebody who kicks people from the tribe, at this stage there is little opportunity to invite new players so it has to be calculated when doing this.

When people ask me how best to fill the diplomat role i always say that the trick is to propose an idea that suits you while at the same time making sure the other person believes that they were the one that came up with the idea in the first place. That way your getting what you want and they think they are getting what they want. (basically distorting words wouldnt you think?)


Now in my previous post when i said i had followed a leader that worked mainly solo and that he was my favourite leader so far he managed to do all of these things. In fact he actually kicked me from the tribe for not growing fast enough, the reason he kept me as long as he did was because i was active and constantly played an active role in the tribe - however eventually i was thrown out. Now i left on good terms and he was and still is a fantastic leader. To say that he isnt is stupid. I am speaking of ISE who leads Domino on world 38. (i dont know his leading strategy but thats the way it appeared).

I dont know what inty did wrong to irritate his tribe but my definition of a good leader and yours seems to be for the most part similar but there is evidently some kind of large divide.


As i said i think its great you take the time to go around and do this so please dont get me wrong.


As usual i went a bit OTT with my response - i dont think im capable of making small replies tbh.

 

[DeletedUser]

Crikey - so many words from so many people who do not have a clue what is going on, what has happened, whether Inty is a good leader or a bad one.

Amazing that people feel equipped to make damning judgements about the capabilities and character of a leader based on a few snippets of hearsay.

Never thought I would be sticking up for Inty, but this thread feels grossly unfair to me and I know more of the real WISDOM story than most.

 

[samulis]

Leaders should be Honorable, Corageous, Charasmatic, Faithful to their Party, and Knowledgable. They try to not discriminate on purpose and should not lie to their comrades, foes, or allies. Telling lies only get people mixed up, messed up, and in massive cover-ups that don't make any sense... I believe THAT much is something every person learns in Kindergarten reading fairy tales. How many stories are there of great leaders that follow the same ideals as a leader? Hundreds. King Arthur, Charlemagne, George Washington, and on and on... so engraved in our cultures are these ideal heroes- those warrior-kings of old- that you cannot but use them as a measurement of the ultimate and highest level of mortal ruler.

Yes, those leaders removed people from their land and ruled strongly, but they were always viewed as standing in the 'front lines'. Washington was a general; Arthur and Charlemagne were both warrior-kings of their respective realms. But, unlike the Inty of late, they only removed people from their court if they betrayed them... and multiple times at that. As for inactives, I have never seen a tribe that openly keeps them except to take their villages. It's like bread and circuses... give a little dole to the people of the Empire from the (literally) hearts of the dead.

Note to all who read blindly: This next paragraph is not related to any people. If you take what I say in it as a description of Inty, read the previous sentence twice over again.

A poor ruler is one who lies to his people, twists the words of others to suit his own personal cause (not the cause of the party), he rules only for what he thinks is right, he may be knowledgeable or not, but regardless, he only knows what he wants. The poor ruler removes people from the tribe who do not want to work for his personal cause and people who respectfully criticize his rule are often next on the chopping block. One wrong word with him and your villages could be gone. Too many votes against his will, and your villages could disappear into a suddenly growing horde of red around you... Attila the Hun turned about 50x more warlike and gruesome.


I have studied Tribes and how they work for the past two years. I have led using Feudal Systems, Monarchies, Republics, and your standard run-of-the-mill Tribal system. I have observed others lead and frankly, I have seen both virtuous rulers and tyrannical leaders. I have fought beside and against both types. I have BEEN both types. I was once a petty fool of a ruler... one who only viewed my own view of the world. Now, I beg my tribe for their opinion on subjects- I ask my fellow rulers for their words or participation. I only do what the TRIBE tells me to do and only take the reins when the tribe is threatened.

Inty was once even greater a leader than I ever will be, and still is, by the fact, a far better warrior. I have already pointed out on multiple occasions that he used to be like one of those great warrior-kings when he made Wisdom. I myself was in the presence of one such person like him; the founder of my favorite tribe, and one which I now rule. He, like Inty, was the one who built the tribe with nothing but his bare hands and unwavering will. He forged alliances that he respected, and he crushed foes who did not respect him. That was what Inty was- or at least, every single account of Inty's reign I have been told of.

Then, something happened... and he slowly became more distant from his people. He held onto his rule and lust for power, but his goals changed more to focus his view of Wisdom- the Growth, Strength, and Power of Wisdom. On the other hand, many still focused on the flaws and issues at hand in Wisdom that needed to be solved. Inty forged ahead, cutting his own way. At the same time, he renounced his claims of power and became more of a 'honorary' Duke. He still held his full rights at that time, but he handed off a few of his responcibilities... perhaps deciding he wanted a more overhead view of everything. That's when it struck. He made a few mistakes and said a few conflicting statements to different people. To many of Wisdom, he was still the valiant warrior-king who gave them life and eternal strength; to some who had grown close to him, his behavior changed to a harsher, more mechanical way of thinking. His entire demeanor changed to a more furious king holding desperately onto his crown... from the outside and to the commoner of Wisdom, he looked perfectly fine, the one ruler- out-front dictator who was the one who gifted them with many good raids and wars to fight. He still looked like the charismatic hero who charged over the walls of enemy towns, at the front of the entire army.

Yet from the inside, he lied to his subordinates, forced players to retire from power, and finally, just recently, either ordered or personally removed a number of power-holding subordinates from the TRIBE simply because- and I have proof of this- he did not like them. When I don't like one of my subordinates, I either act like the wise man and work with them to avoid conflict or I talk straight to them and tell them what's wrong... or, I act friendly to them until I know enough about their personality that I can rectify my dislike for them. When Barbarossa found one of his knights had been disloyal to him, he punished him, but gave him a second chance... he told the knight what he had done wrong, and the knight, after turning against him again, was banished. The knight had turned against the CAUSE of the Holy Roman Empire, not against Barbarossa's cause for power and dominance.

So, I ask any who still think of me as a twisted, near-sighted, foolish player to tell me this: Is it right to remove people from your court if they give you advice that you don't want to take because that advice will deny you the right to force people to work for your own personal goal of power?

I am not trying to convince you of what you should have learned in Kindergarten... I am simply trying to show you that a great leader has fallen and he needs to be helped back up. I already told him how he can stand up on his own, but he refused my hand. So now I am telling you how you can make him stand back up again.

 

[DeletedUser]

i read that. with great pain, it WAS SO LONG!!

but you raised valid points and raised them both eloquently and with clear reasoning.
*takes hat off to samulis*

 

[DeletedUser]

Sam,

It's so clear that you're being fed by HaV members it's ridiculous. Inty wasn't a great ruler who suddenly became a bad one; his strategy and tactics were not changing much during the past two years; actually, the only thing which changed around the time you're referring to is the HaV players' viewpoint and urging need for a tabula rasa and political renewal.

Guess what: if HaV would be mature and serious enough, they wouldn't rely on this cheap and lengthy propaganda (who is the bloggers' recruiter? Jehosophat? Just to clarify your primary sources and/or affiliations...), they would have just simply admitted that well, Inty's standards became too tiring for them or that Inty's paranoia finally targeted them as well, or that they finally realised they were misled and lied to, hence the split.

It never actually happened. Instead, you are trying to build up an alternate history for them where an once great and grown up leader suddenly, without any reason became a completely arrogant, clueless and stupid, selfish tyrant, who immediately ruined his empire and practically forced his once loyal comrades to leave him. This heart-saddening story is being presented by a completely neutral third party who is studying tribes for years and is accidentally just popping up when HaV needs some help and is happen to have his first contacts towards W17 via Jehosophat (which is surely granting a neutral viewpoint about an event focusing on the HaV-Wisdom split and it's personal clashes).

A poor ruler is one who lies to his people, twists the words of others to suit his own personal cause (not the cause of the party), he rules only for what he thinks is right, he may be knowledgeable or not, but regardless, he only knows what he wants.

Let me tell something as someone who were "studying" W17's world politics and standards from a bit closer viewpoint than you did: standards and strategies of said party and leader has never changed, and there are maybe a dozen wars, betrayals and other events along W17's history to clearly back it up. Guess who were his first-line aristocrats during most of those events...

Seriously...

 

[DeletedUser57892]

So as I read all the very long written posts, I realize everyone just wants to make their claims look valid by fluffing their posts. I did not want to weigh in on this topic because for me the whole thing is different than the rest of Wisdom/HaV, but I would like to now.

I may not be impartial, because I have always been loyal toward Wisdom. As the duke of a long time ally tribe that had recently joined Wisdom I have had several opportunities to work with Inty. He is not a tyrant. He is proud, but I doubt any of you would want a leader who was not. As for Why he dismissed certain members of his council that is his business and should not be discussed here.

Now you may wonder why I am in HaV and not Wisdom. For me (and I speak for myself only) I am in HaV because of who else is there. I support my friends and PAs. When this all happened Eturgen was in the second day of its merge with Wisdom. I barely came over myself when I saw who all left. I chose to fight along side those that I am closest to.

I am still loyal to Wisdom as is HaV. So it is very sad to see people imply HaV trying to start a smear campaign. For most very little changed and it is business as usual. So let us get back to what is important and get back to the war part of tribal wars!

 

[samulis]

Darkwing's words ring true, there is no point bickering over who fell and who rose and who got their limbs cut off...

However, I would like to say, if MM_HUN is right in his words to the mark, then we all are dead men. Even when I spoke to Jehosophat, who you mention by name as a HaV representative, she told me how great Inty ONCE was. How he respected his allies more than himself. She praised his past, just as others who I interviewed did. IF persay, Inty has declined, then would the behavior in the letter have been different if I had mailed him a year ago if I had found the same issues evident? If it would have been, then my point is proven. If his mails concerning changes in leadership or government or civic system were the same in style, cunning, and desire a year ago, then your point is proven. Anyone care to present evidence?

 

[DeletedUser]

Lol, first poster.

All very interesting comments but admittedly I didn't read every word Samulis. I only wish our W17 forums contained the life they once had. So now we have admittedly condoned our nerdish prerogatives to dissect one of the most recognized names for us all, our favorite Wisdom leader Inty. It seems you got to love him, hate him, something him but perhaps we should all realize he has brought life here once again. Without Inty to stir our pot of emotion this would in deed be such a boring place.

Right or wrong what is done is done. It is funny though how you continually flaunt your sources of reliable information on the inner workings of our tribe. I never even knew of your existence until I took an extended amount of time to look over this scripted post.

Then again what do I know, I'm just a simple minded Wisdom Dog after all.