TDP/SPANK - Merge

[DeletedUser]

Hello Nev Did you have a nice Holiday?

Ahaa, I didnt go on holiday, merely a collection of my computer breaking and a big call for DSL to steer away from the, as every is more than aware, we do have members who like to boast and flame ect ect. Eniar merely posted me a section of him correcting an uneducated fool and it seemed fun to join in on, immature and foolish, yes, but it amused me for a while ^_^ Nevertheless, thankyou for the welcome

You knew about the TDP/Spank merge a month before it happened? - Ahhhhh, now I see why you went to such efforts to flame TDP/Turn the world against them in that debacle of a thread about TDP's plans to attack TLA. Premptively trying to turn the world against TDP so you would have plenty of allies in the event of a Merge? Suddenly it all becomes clear, I did wonder at the time why you guys were trying so hard to create a Mountain from a Mole Hill.....Especially when the matter had already been dealt with by the Tribes involved. (Congratulations on the efficiency of your inteligence system by the way).

Admitted, I intentionally flamed TDP, but to gain allies? That wasnt my intention, frankly I have no proof to show you it wasn't so I guess you can decide for yourself on that one. My involvement in that dibocle was merely to end the silly flame war that insued as rumours flew, other peoples motives for flaming TDP are unknown to me.

But while you are right that DSL have made plenty of brilliant moves, and launched many a cunning plan - I dont think you are right that the TDP/Spank merge is such a terrible idea.

I feel it was a stroke of brilliance from the SPANK side of view, I mean they were just starting to crumble we'd broken through the huge stacks they'd made, then all of a sudden the recieve masses more troops from TDP and I can assure you, not only have recent reports shown a sharp rise in troops on the SPANK line, but captured villages showing support incoming from TDP members incoming. As for TDPs point of view, they've angered a top tribe and recruited a lot of members who's only way is down and as ive said are losing troops attempting to save said lost cause, unless this is part of some much bigger, overall plan, (which believe me, we have our fair share of information and suspiscions about).. unless that is the case, this, in my opinion is a silly move. But hey-ho, opinions vary.

1st off, I could be wrong here but I dont think TDP ever officially declared on Spank (or Vice Versa) - I dont remember the post anyway. Instead both Tribes existed in a state of Skirmish for quite some time, but officially War was never declared.

Secondly, Spank never beat TDP - It was a fairly inconclusive state of constant Skirmish, untill the Start of the FusoSpank war, where TDP made more headway as Spank was fighting on other fronts.

Thirdly - Spank stayed and fought both DSL and TLA with honour (I dont think anyone will argue that point), and they were losing the war (very very slowly) - But they werent beaten, instead they have opted into a mutual merge with TDP - and then continued there fight. Spank as a Tribe may be no more - but I dont think it can realistically be said that it was "Beaten".

Maybe the word beat was a stronger word than intended.. The fact is, FUSION fought TDP well, SPANK fought TDP well, TDP we're under pressure and had to sign NAPs and merge to save themselves in my opinion, clever for them but worthy of a notable flame perhaps?

As for the Merge itself - well lets be fair, for both sides it was a good plan, they gained territory, got to rid themselves of inactives/weaker players and put together a strong alliance of the better active players, and have a fresh pool of Troops to reinforce the frontlines - The members of both Tribes seem happy with the merge, and morale is high.

A tribe shouldn't need to use a merge as an excuse to rid inactives.As for the fresh pool of troops to re-enforce the front line, whilst that does greatly benefit SPANK, what does it give TDP?

Politically speaking it was a smart move, as DSL in the previous Month had made it very clear by posts and actions that it was no friend of TDP and that it would be declaring on them when Spank falls, it makes very little sense therefore for TDP just to sit back and watch DSL slowly eat its way through SPANK until DSL reached its borders.

A war with TDP? Listen, I know we were unfriendly with TDP but any person with a hint of geographical knowledge would know that a war with TDP, if ever going to happen, was a very long way off.

And not to denigrate DSL's war effort - But personally I will be watching this War closely, because at the moment - as far as I can see - Its going to be the first time DSL has actually gone 1 V 1 in a war against a top 10 Tribe.

SPANK - DSL with TLA and ARISEN (Spank remains Unbeaten)

FUSION- DSL with KGR-F and DINO [and TDP and =DEAD=] (although DSL only actually properly launched on Fusion the day the War ended - Fusion was fought predominantly by KGR-F and backed up by DINO - and was in my Opinion, beaten by KGR-F not DSL.)

=TFHR=, TFHRII - DSL and DINO (=TFHR= now seem to be Surrendering to/being recruited by DINO)

NEO - DSL and NME (Inconclusive so Far, DSL and NME are winning, But NEO are still there).

B-W - DSL on its own (Tribe was Ranked 25th at time of Declaration, War still ongoing though DSL are winning)

Now TDP (The Dreaded Spank ) - As far as I can see DSL is fighting them on its own, NME is fighting a cluster that suddenly appeared in there Core, but doubt they will continue when this cluster is gone) - So it should become an even match up as Merge settles in and fresh troops reach there new destinations..

So it should be interesting if it remains a one on one fight - This is DSL's chance to put its Money where its Mouth is and relieve Einars boredom - The world is watching Gentleman (rather like it did during the initial Fusion/TDP War I suspect).

The fact of the matter is, the tribes we are fighting aren't regular old noobs as they have proven, they are all friends and most are prepared to fight until the bitter end, as such, we can't just attack a little, they disband and then we get to say 'we beat them' we're having to eat them... all! and as you well know, this takes a lot of time, if you check a map before the war and at this current stage, you will see DSL has made SIGNIFICANT progress into the territory of all our enemies, but as I said, we cannot say 'We beat them' until they actually disband or go crazy and start throwing chicken legs at each other or something. As you say, the world is watching, and we continue to press, you will see ^_^ Lets just say there are bigger forces at work than simply us hitting them, them hitting us, DSLs forum prescence of recent has simply been our members slapping a bullseye on our chest and saying 'Shoot me pl0x', which we are aiming to change... but a lot of people want our blood and its selective who we can trust, or maybe im just paranoid. DSL defenses are constantly shifting

So while I dont defend scottrhody - who is clearly Trolling with no apparent purpose (nice catch AZ) - and I agree with you that DSL have made plenty of smart moves throughout there Tenure on World 29, I do have to disagree that the Merge was a bad idea.

Your opinion is always welcomed Jobe and I respect you for putting it forward in a more debate building constructive way, rather than a: 'DSL sucks nuff said' method that everyone seems to have taken (Not that some of it wasn't justified ofc. I expect another classic Jobe quote wall reply (Not saying thats a bad thing ) But unfortuanately im up early, thus off to bed soon and at a wedding all day tommorow, so MAY not reply until late tommorow night/sunday morning.

Thanks,
Nevveh.

 

[DeletedUser]

[SPOIL]Side 1:
Tribes:
Players: Madlax.

Side 2:
Tribes: TDP
Players:

Timeframe: Last week

Total conquers:

Side 1: 26
Side 2: 254
Difference: 228

Total conquers against opposite side:

Side 1: 26
Side 2: 0
Difference: 26

Points value of total conquers:

Side 1: 261,898
Side 2: 1,786,710
Difference: 1,524,812

Points value of total conquers against opposite side:

Side 1: 261,898
Side 2: 0
Difference: 261,898

[/SPOIL]




Cookie plox? ;_;

TDP has been the least entertaining of my opponents since the world started :S

I've yet to see this all for one support they go on about in their profile. Not one village I've taken has had incoming support. Are all members not valued equally? :3 I had thought two waves of carpet nukes clearing dozens of villages would've been enough to capture your attention ;_;

Tisk tisk

 

[Woodlandapple]

/me sends a troop of penguins to give you as many cookies as you want :3

Just to correct you shards, we did take one vil with incoming support I suppose, and did get 2 retaliation attacks. One from sarzep, one from yilmaz, the two being nobled out of our area.

 

[Jobetopia]

Hello Nev Did you have a nice Holiday?

Ahaa, I didnt go on holiday, merely a collection of my computer breaking and a big call for DSL to steer away from the, as every is more than aware, we do have members who like to boast and flame ect ect. Eniar merely posted me a section of him correcting an uneducated fool and it seemed fun to join in on, immature and foolish, yes, but it amused me for a while ^_^ Nevertheless, thankyou for the welcome

Ahhh, i suspected that may have been the case from the lack of DSL prescence on the forum of late - But did not know as a fact so I thought I would gamble with Holiday . A posting moratorium was probablly a good idea to be honest, especially after the TDP flame debacle (which really backfired). It had got to the stage where DSL was rapidly running out of manuvre room/friends on the world stage - and the last series of posts managed to alienate just about everyone - and not without reason as you say.

I feel it was a stroke of brilliance from the SPANK side of view, I mean they were just starting to crumble we'd broken through the huge stacks they'd made, then all of a sudden the recieve masses more troops from TDP and I can assure you, not only have recent reports shown a sharp rise in troops on the SPANK line, but captured villages showing support incoming from TDP members incoming. As for TDPs point of view, they've angered a top tribe and recruited a lot of members who's only way is down and as ive said are losing troops attempting to save said lost cause, unless this is part of some much bigger, overall plan, (which believe me, we have our fair share of information and suspiscions about).. unless that is the case, this, in my opinion is a silly move. But hey-ho, opinions vary.

I think TDP gains some good players, Territory, Respect, Rank and Long Term security - Yes it has annoyed DSL, but after all the DSL flame it had been dealt (and veiled threats) I really dont think that was seen as a problem. It was clear that you were already rather angry with them, so for TDP the only result is that you stay angry, but they are doing something effective to strike back.

Now, as you say later on - DSL was nowhere near the TDP border, and was unable to wage war on them at the time of the merge.

A war with TDP? Listen, I know we were unfriendly with TDP but any person with a hint of geographical knowledge would know that a war with TDP, if ever going to happen, was a very long way off.

I think what you are looking at here is a long term view by the TDP leadership, and I am sure that as a Duke you would agree that to be successful every Tribe needs to take a long term view and have some sort of plan or objective. If Spank had fallen, that border with DSL would have closed in rapidly. DSL would have nobled through with greater speed and TDP's borders would expand with former Spank members (Exactly as has happend with the caputured Fusion K's - The take over was Rapid). Then DSL and TDP would be at war (With DSL probablly using the excuse that TDP had taken in Spank refugees). As soon as Spank fell (however long that took) TDP would be on there own facing DSL on at least some sort of border.

Individually both Tribes would have fallen eventually (both are superb on defence so it would have taken time). But together they stand a chance of winning - To my mind, thinking long term, this merge was an excellent thing for both Tribes (as Admael says TDP lose nothing and gain alot, and Spank gain support and security on there frontlines) Win Win for both Tribes, the only difference is the Benefit to Spank is immediate, while the Benefit to TDP is Long Term.

Maybe the word beat was a stronger word than intended.. The fact is, FUSION fought TDP well, SPANK fought TDP well, TDP we're under pressure and had to sign NAPs and merge to save themselves in my opinion, clever for them but worthy of a notable flame perhaps?

I am glad that someone from DSL finally admits this, Fusion suffered a Month or more of constant (and untrue) Flame about there performance in the TDP war - Leading up to the GangBang declaration. I think Fusions performance in that War proved that alot of this Propoganda was total rubbish, and just a set up for War, but its still nice to hear someone from DSL admit this.

But anyhoo - There is a misconception there, The TDP/Fusion NAP was not signed out of a sense of fear by TDP. To be honest at the time the Nap was agreed Fusion was pretty much unable to continue to prosecute any sort of War against TDP, and TDP were successfully coordinating attacks against us and taking territory. - The Fusion/TDP nap was signed for precisely the reasons stated earlier in the other threads - and was mutually beneficial.

Spank and TDP had not been fighting for quite some time before there Merge (indeed I believe there were Merge talks before the War even started) - And I dont believe that Spank (facing attacks from TLA and DSL) was in a position to really take the fight to TDP either. - Again, Spank and TDP's ceasefire was to there Mutual benefit (as was the Merge).

At the time these decisions were made TDP were in no real danger from either Tribe, and to be Honest - Neither Fusion, or Spank wanted to be fighting them - We had enough to deal with on our other borders! (Im looking at you KGR-F :icon_razz. - So no, I cant agree that either of these moves is worthy of any sort of flame.

Anyway you look at it - This Merge was a good thing for both Tribes - and whats more - from the comments on the Forum it seems both these Tribes are very happy with the Merge.


The World will be watching this one with interest, DSL have talked alot about how they are the best Tribe (even recent claims to be the best ever TW premade), so now its time to see if there words can match there actions. Initially while the Merge continues I suspect you will do ok, will be interesting to see what happens when the line solidifies.

Have a nice time at the Wedding Nev, unless your the Groom, in which case Good Luck! :icon_biggrin:

 

[DeletedUser]

Just about to set off, so will post my reply tonight or possibly tommorow, In short, I understand your point and I think an outside, neutral view the merge will obviously be seen differantly, as you know, they are no enemies of DSL and im in no hurry to admit they made a good move for obvious reasons From my point of view, it was foolish, opinions vary

And yes, the DSL attitude of 'We iz cool, we hate you all' will change, without wanting to divulge to much into censorship, we will be moderating what our members are posting, if anyone has a problem with a member of mine, please mail me in-game and we will resolve the issue there, rather than another public cherade

Off to the wedding!
-Nev.

(P.s: Im not the groom thank the lord, merely a friend of those involved , hope the buffets big)

 

[DeletedUser]

Well that is good to hear Nev, do you moderate retrospectively? if so I would think you would be pretty busy and would need to kick a number of members But it is interesting that no such post were made when you had everything to gain from a similar response to fusion.

I am a little bit suspicious that the change would occur now that the shoe is on the other foot.

I would imagine that people who are arrogant and pig headed dont become reasonable over night. I would also imagine alot of them would be unable to see that they have done any wrong at all in the past. And what is more some people have memories like an elephant, so dont just forget wrong doing because someone comes out and says hey we have changed.

As far as I know I am still a SIM playing noob! because that is the only post I ever heard from your members!!!

I suspect censorship will cause some internal problems for DSL.

Kinda sad Nev, you are damned if you do and damned if you dont. But good on you for trying

What ever happened to that guy shadowfog? did he quit

Fighting SPANK, FUSION, =TFHR=, NEO, B-W, TFHRII all at the same time and beating them all? Ermm, thats 4 top 10 tribes and 2 more tops 30 tribes...

Forgive me, but, what have TDP done lately?

'We shall lose two wars, then MERGE MERGE MERGE!!'

Seems like a flame! Nev can you please censor this member thanks

 

[DeletedUser]

Well that is good to hear Nev, do you moderate retrospectively? if so I would think you would be pretty busy and would need to kick a number of members But it is interesting that no such post were made when you had everything to gain from a similar response to fusion.

I am a little bit suspicious that the change would occur now that the shoe is on the other foot.

I would imagine that people who are arrogant and pig headed dont become reasonable over night. I would also imagine alot of them would be unable to see that they have done any wrong at all in the past. And what is more some people have memories like an elephant, so dont just forget wrong doing because someone comes out and says hey we have changed.

As far as I know I am still a SIM playing noob! because that is the only post I ever heard from your members!!!

I suspect censorship will cause some internal problems for DSL.

Kinda sad Nev, you are damned if you do and damned if you dont. But good on you for trying

What ever happened to that guy shadowfog? did he quit



Seems like a flame! Nev can you please censor this member thanks

While i find it flattering you mention me, i'm going to make my post very blunt and slightly gritty so bare with me.

We at DSL, do love our haters, and send them parcels of cookies and little baby pandas as gifts, but we don't like our trolls.

We don't feed trolls often, and you along with panther are probably the most vile ones i've seen, you continuesly spew rubbish, lies and a pinch of bitterness, i'm unsure why, but i'm sure i'm not the only one who's getting tired of your spiteful attacks on DSL.

You seem to be ignorant to the fact that you sir are, pig headed, ignorant, arrogant and a troll, your known all over the forums for it, and as is the way to combat trolls, i shall set you alight like the wickerman.

Yet, you are a sim playing noob, unless you have the stats to dismiss that claim, which i am more than happy to read and tip my hat off too, otherwise, the comments still stands unless disproven.

If you must know, i've been away on holiday for a good few days and out with close friends for the past 2 - 3 days, for the whole day i might add, upon checking TW i've been informed of a lot of new information, and have been busy on the w41 forums.

Next time you feel like spouting nonscence, do so in a better manner, your boring me.

 

[DeletedUser]

Spank and TDP had not been fighting for quite some time before there Merge (indeed I believe there were Merge talks before the War even started) - And I dont believe that Spank (facing attacks from TLA and DSL) was in a position to really take the fight to TDP either. - Again, Spank and TDP's ceasefire was to there Mutual benefit (as was the Merge).

Anyway you look at it - This Merge was a good thing for both Tribes - and whats more - from the comments on the Forum it seems both these Tribes are very happy with the Merge.

SPANK and TDP never engaged in full on war, though skirmishes between both were quite common both before and during the FUSION/TDP war. The first merge talks took place way before the war, way back when K74 switched sides from SPANK to TDP in April. But I believe TDP had rejected the merge (SPANK had approached TDP if I'm not mistaken).

As for after the war, and the recent merge, I didn't understand it at first, but now it makes sense and it was mutually benificial, not formed out of fear or weakness, but for mutual benifits to both tribes involved. As Job said, it provided long term security for TDP against tribes like DSL, and for SPANK suddenly provided more support and help with their frontline with DSL. While expanding territory. All in all I see it as a great move.

 

[DeletedUser35501]

While i find it flattering you mention me, i'm going to make my post very blunt and slightly gritty so bare with me.

We at DSL, do love our haters, and send them parcels of cookies and little baby pandas as gifts, but we don't like our trolls.

We don't feed trolls often, and you along with panther are probably the most vile ones i've seen, you continuesly spew rubbish, lies and a pinch of bitterness, i'm unsure why, but i'm sure i'm not the only one who's getting tired of your spiteful attacks on DSL.

You seem to be ignorant to the fact that you sir are, pig headed, ignorant, arrogant and a troll, your known all over the forums for it, and as is the way to combat trolls, i shall set you alight like the wickerman.

Yet, you are a sim playing noob, unless you have the stats to dismiss that claim, which i am more than happy to read and tip my hat off too, otherwise, the comments still stands unless disproven.

If you must know, i've been away on holiday for a good few days and out with close friends for the past 2 - 3 days, for the whole day i might add, upon checking TW i've been informed of a lot of new information, and have been busy on the w41 forums.

Next time you feel like spouting nonscence, do so in a better manner, your boring me.

It didn't take long for a DSL member to post and prove that Nev's words about a change of conduct on the forums by DSL were just that, empty words.

Same flaming, same shouting troll! troll! troll! same old DSL.

 

[DeletedUser]

Cuddles everyone in the room, everyone feel better...:lol:

 

[DeletedUser35501]

Cuddles everyone in the room, everyone feel better...:lol:

I was hoping for a cookie, and maybe a glass of warm milk :lol:

 

[DeletedUser]

I got beer and peanuts will that do?

 

[DeletedUser]

o.0 OJ anyone?

 

[DeletedUser35501]

I got beer and peanuts will that do?

That will do fine *swigs* :icon_biggrin:

 

[DeletedUser]

It didn't take long for a DSL member to post and prove that Nev's words about a change of conduct on the forums by DSL were just that, empty words.

Same flaming, same shouting troll! troll! troll! same old DSL.

Not really O_O i've not spoken for two weeks on these forums, we do have a change on conduct, but it seems SPANK/TDP still have plenty of trolls and though you seem to be fine with that.

Also he mentioned my name *blush* i didn't likez it

 

[DeletedUser]

well if i ever become a troll i hope im a depressed one sitting on a rock in my cave watching movies on hulu with long black hair. lol

 

[DeletedUser]

Not really O_O i've not spoken for two weeks on these forums, we do have a change on conduct, but it seems SPANK/TDP still have plenty of trolls and though you seem to be fine with that.

Also he mentioned my name *blush* i didn't likez it

Theres a difference between trolls and people who argue back.

From what I have seen, people attempt to explain a situation, they answer DSL's endless questions about things, and DSL comes back with replies asking the same things, or stating the same things.

Graylin was the worst on this. Jobe would post, in detail, an answer to everything graylin said, and then graylin would ask again, seeming to completely ignore the first reply, or finding it somehow inadequate.

Graylin was the worst, but not the only one.

And then all of a sudden when an enemy of DSL turns around and asks a question, its nobody's busness but DSL's own. Does DSL have some special privledges where they can act however they want, but nobody else can do the same?

Oh, and I may have missed something, but where did graylin go?

 

[DeletedUser]

Theres a difference between trolls and people who argue back.

From what I have seen, people attempt to explain a situation, they answer DSL's endless questions about things, and DSL comes back with replies asking the same things, or stating the same things.

Graylin was the worst on this. Jobe would post, in detail, an answer to everything graylin said, and then graylin would ask again, seeming to completely ignore the first reply, or finding it somehow inadequate.

Graylin was the worst, but not the only one.

And then all of a sudden when an enemy of DSL turns around and asks a question, its nobody's busness but DSL's own. Does DSL have some special privledges where they can act however they want, but nobody else can do the same?

Oh, and I may have missed something, but where did graylin go?

So basically your doing "i hate DSL, nuff said" response, you do that quite often admael .

I like jobe, but your being ludicrous if your trying to make yoni's post anything else than what it was, but it seems your dislike for us blinds everyone insulting us of doing a wrong, but we are the spawn of the devil himself (hot stuff?).

 

[DeletedUser]

So basically your doing "i hate DSL, nuff said" response, you do that quite often admael .

I like jobe, but your being ludicrous if your trying to make yoni's post anything else than what it was, but it seems your dislike for us blinds everyone insulting us of doing a wrong, but we are the spawn of the devil himself (hot stuff?).

If I have ever done an I hate you, and you took that to mean I hate DSL, you are sorely mistaken. You are correct, I do not like you, and have not liked you, ever since you began posting. I will also admit, I am incredibly lazy, and until this moment, I had no idea that you were DSL.

Again, its not simply that I dont like DSL, just that the worst of what Ive seen was mainly DSL. I dont dislike all of DSL either. For instance, I hated Nev the moment he walked back into these forums. After afew days though, he seemed to turn a new leaf, and became a very different person in his posts. That new nev I liked very much. I havent really read his posts lately, and I cannot say if he has kept that up.

And I will also note that my last post was mentioning, for the most part, graylin. I disliked graylin before he became DSL. It isnt his being DSL that made me dislike him.

As for DSL being the spawn of the devil, I said no such thing. DSL is a good tribe, and from what Ive heard, must be pretty well run as far as fighting goes.
______________
This is very off topic, so I will edit in something on topic

I am in full support of this TDP/SPANK merge, but I would like very much to see at the very least the bottom 20 members kicked from both TDP and TDP II. In fact, if TDP nobled off their weakest gradualy, and finally merged into just one tribe, all of those members would be larger, having eaten their weak. Dead weight is easily avoided.
______________
I would like to avoid any more infractions, but I would also like to leave this post here, in reply to your own. If you wish to continue the conversation, I would be glad to do so through mail, or if you would like, we could create a separate thread for this sort of thing.

 

[DeletedUser]

If I have ever done an I hate you, and you took that to mean I hate DSL, you are sorely mistaken. You are correct, I do not like you, and have not liked you, ever since you began posting. I will also admit, I am incredibly lazy, and until this moment, I had no idea that you were DSL.

Again, its not simply that I dont like DSL, just that the worst of what Ive seen was mainly DSL. I dont dislike all of DSL either. For instance, I hated Nev the moment he walked back into these forums. After afew days though, he seemed to turn a new leaf, and became a very different person in his posts. That new nev I liked very much. I havent really read his posts lately, and I cannot say if he has kept that up.

And I will also note that my last post was mentioning, for the most part, graylin. I disliked graylin before he became DSL. It isnt his being DSL that made me dislike him.

As for DSL being the spawn of the devil, I said no such thing. DSL is a good tribe, and from what Ive heard, must be pretty well run as far as fighting goes.
______________
This is very off topic, so I will edit in something on topic

I am in full support of this TDP/SPANK merge, but I would like very much to see at the very least the bottom 20 members kicked from both TDP and TDP II. In fact, if TDP nobled off their weakest gradualy, and finally merged into just one tribe, all of those members would be larger, having eaten their weak. Dead weight is easily avoided.
______________
I would like to avoid any more infractions, but I would also like to leave this post here, in reply to your own. If you wish to continue the conversation, I would be glad to do so through mail, or if you would like, we could create a separate thread for this sort of thing.

Flattering but your the first to admit hating me, but i'll simply say you've proven your dislike for DSL, and you seem to like nev for being nice, while i wuv him, i don't be nice to haters, trolls and just generally nasty people, fire with fire basically.

P.S. Mods hate it when people do an on topic section at the bottom, as if it'll reprieve the off topic comments you've been making beforehand just for future referance

P.S.S. I see no point in continueing the argument, as i feel your ignoring or pretending to not understand my points oh well, another time.