To turtle or to turtle not

[DeletedUser]

Hey all,

I'd like to get some opinions on this, and to start a discussion, it might turn out to be fun

Before I satart, I just want to say that this tread is not meant to insult anyone, it's just how I see things, and that is the very reason I want to see if I'm going crazy or not.

From the start of this w I have talked with one of my neighbors from time to time. It's Lokinder, duke of ESL. What I learned about him is that he runs his tribe like I never, not even in my strangest dreams, would. He has there few (4-5, not sure) off guys, and the rest of them are turtles. I agree, it's his choice, and it actually could work if all guys are very active, work as a team very well and if they all have more or less nice areas and close to same number of troops. Just looking at the member list and their villas I doubt that.

We talked about that, and he is so confident of his tribe and it's abilities, that it's unbelievable. I should mention tho that I do think he is ok guy, and good one to talk with, but since he is very close, off player and farming my farms (he was not aggressive, I cleared most of my farms, he just used them afterwards, his choice ofc, and has every right to do it) I decided to go for him and prove him wrong.

Then, strangely enough, I was contacted by local tribe called flak, and they asked me to clear him since he attacked one of their members. Ofc, I accepted, and asked them to stack me. After all, I'm alone, and I will be helping them too.

So we started:

http://en59.tribalwars.net/public_report/cb23eb985368f5ac3518bf7379ed32f9

I cleared somebody's def and catted 10 lvls of his farm. We started to talk here a lot, friendly ofc, like an adults , without hard feelings. We both knew that he will be staked sooner or later, so I had time to hit only few more times. Then I stopped. I'm stacked, he is stacked, not much we could do. But my goal is not only to slow him down, I want to prove him wrong. So:

http://en59.tribalwars.net/public_report/b8252a809000ad30dfa8f9f0e3b55f4d

One more of his members is cleared, and farm catted 4 lvls I think.

I'm getting more support, so knowing that they have very few off guys, they can't hurt me, at least not while my stack is there. And I am only one player.

What I want to say, I might win or loose this, depending on how long I have my stack and how hard they try after that, but imagine if I was in a tribe that has just few more off guys like I am, close to them. How on earth would they win. We all know starting def is always slower option (safer tho) so with few more like I'm, it would be almost impossible for them to win, they can't stack all villas, and all we need is to play smart and stack few villas. And above all, this game is for fun, and off sure is the most fun way of playing, at least for the start-up.

So what do you think.

Cheers

 

[DeletedUser]

Well this just proves that if you make troops too slowly, you are doomed. That goes regardless of whether people make O or D.
If these guys had had better defenses, you would at most have been able to clear one of them.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well have fun, though if you are being stacked you can't claim one player vs. a tribe.

 

[DeletedUser]

Not saying that I'm going alone after them, alone I can't win, that's obvious, I did say imagine if I was in a tribe with few more off guys. I'm not trying to talk about this situation only, but in general.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well this just proves that if you make troops too slowly, you are doomed. That goes regardless of whether people make O or D.
If these guys had had better defenses, you would at most have been able to clear one of them.

I'm not talking about me vs them, I want to discuss turtle tribes with 90% def players vs off tribes or at least 50-50 off to def. Is there any chance turtle tribe could win.

I sure can't clear all of them, not even close

 

[DeletedUser80534]

You could co-ordinate a turtle tribe into winning yes. But surely their tribe wont see fast expansion without any off. Well, unless they noble lots and lots of barbs.

 

[DeletedUser]

There are effective ways of turtling at startup. The farm levels of your targets tell me that they aren't doing it efficiently, which leads to what Den said, they just aren't building troops fast enough. If you run into a turtle that can do it efficiently you wouldn't have much left. Though the fact that you're clearing stacks that big also implies that you're probably sending most of your LC with your attacks and thus slowing your own growth because they aren't farming. Or your targets never bothered to research to level 3 sp/sw, which is a must if you plan on getting attacked at this stage.

Yes, a turtle tribe can win. If all the attackers lose their troops on stacks, the turtle tribe suddenly has the troop advantage and thus the farming advantage and thus the growth advantage. If players can succeed on a 90% defensive scale in taking over 50% of their caps as enemy villages I don't see why a tribe can't do the same. Just requires better thought out attacks than throwing blind nukes and seeing what sticks.

 

[DeletedUser]

A turtle that knows how to use his offensive troops is quite dangerus.

But ofc, if an off player HAS enough to clear all of the Deffensive...

startup i'd say offence is more effective. As long as you don't have to keep clearing the village, and yes a D tribe vs a O tribe the O tribe will win every single time.
Gets more interesting when you all have 10 villages each :icon_biggrin:
(Im pretty decent turtle, but i prefer offensive, so i can farm way more.)

 

[DeletedUser]

My opinion is that in world and early stage like this starting defensive is suicide. Defense does not build as quickly as offense thus your villa growth and def. efficiency will be compromised.

On the other hand (even hidden) your nuke does not look impressive - you have very little rams to lower down def. bonus therefore you may have "nice" troop loss even as a winner.

Your cat strategy is a bit waste - if you want to use cats for better damage efficiency calculate cat damage/building using tables published on TW forums than send cats as trains given that you have enough cats to start with.

good luck

 

[DeletedUser]

I think turtle tribe can't win if off tribe is at least equally good at planing attack as they would be at planing to stack. They can't stack all villas for sure, and what off tribe needs to do if it is run well is to be careful and cat down unstacked villas. And that hurts more then wen off guy is catted, with all the lc it's much easier to farm and rebuild. When def guy is catted, it's harder to get those res.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that almost all def approach CAN'T work, it can, but I think it can't work if they came up against a good off tribe.

I love def and defending in the early and mid game, def is vital ofc, not saying that we don't need it all .

 

[DeletedUser]

My opinion is that in world and early stage like this starting defensive is suicide. Defense does not build as quickly as offense thus your villa growth and def. efficiency will be compromised.

I'd disagree with you on personal experience.

Starting defensive is the reason I am still growing right now :icon_wink:

 

[DeletedUser]

My opinion is that in world and early stage like this starting defensive is suicide. Defense does not build as quickly as offense thus your villa growth and def. efficiency will be compromised.

On the other hand (even hidden) your nuke does not look impressive - you have very little rams to lower down def. bonus therefore you may have "nice" troop loss even as a winner.

Your cat strategy is a bit waste - if you want to use cats for better damage efficiency calculate cat damage/building using tables published on TW forums than send cats as trains given that you have enough cats to start with.

good luck

I'm not on this w to win it, just t waste time until the next one.

I didn't have too much rams, that is true, I was not preparing for this too much, and I did clear a lot of villas before this, my area was extremely bad so had to clear a villa, clear support and cat numerous times before someone restarts. All to have fun ofc.

As for cat train, I was doing exactly that, 5 attacks with cats like a train. I just always add more cats in first attack since some of them will die when I clear target.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ive seen turtles who grow faster then most of the "decent" players.

Tw is all about how awesome you are.

 

[balubhai]

In a 15 tech world turtling doesnt succeed any time. Simply because of tech levels and the resources needed to upgrade the tech levels. Offensive players get more resources via fast farming and so upgrades offense tech levels quick where as turtles always remain in lvl 1 sp and sw even when they have 3k of each. A half nuke with level 3 axe, lc and ram can easily clear 3k of each D with lvl 1 tech

 

[velibor]

Now imagine this...they were decent and snipe stacked the player you were about to attack. You're without off, and without def...a dead fish in the sea just like that def guy is atm...BOth off and DEF are equally powerful at startups now that militia is added. As the game progresses and nobles start to pop up OFF is definetly the way to go... The world with only 15 teh definetly favours the offensive guy over the defensive because villas cant be swapped from off to def and vice versa. However, if you're a very active player, you can dodge, attack, and backtime those that are coming after you. If you're a semi active player...its best to go def simply because you cant be caught with your pants down. Bottom line is, it all depends on the player...some are more suited to be offensive while others should stick to turtling.

 

[DeletedUser]

I am surprised to see this here, Killy.

As I informed you early on, our way is a way proven to have effect, given our size is limited. We come from one origin. We are 24 individuals playing as one. Activity is off the charts. Each person a specific role. At our size we can not outpace larger, clustered tribes. So, to hit us hurts. You know this, right?

You show the initial attack on me.

When we began I had a Level 17 wall and a Level 22 farm at the time stamp of the attack you showed.

I now have a Level 12 wall and Level 24 farm, and barracks, stable and workshop are all bumping. Am I slowed? When we began, I had 1900 axe and 450 LC, with 70 ram and 1 catapult. I now have 2200 axe, 600 LC, 90 ram and 15 catapults. Am I slowed? At last count -- and I'm happy to show this -- you have 600 axe, 175 LC and an exceptionally dwindling number of rams and cats. Am I slowed? My farming has been delicious since you began this. I even have to bump warehouse to handle it all. I know you're not getting much both because you have so much less, and because you were spending so much time marching to achieve that diminished state.

You, in planning with a tribe far larger than my own, WITH friends in another very good core tribe, with your father right next to you, decided to hit me. You spent a number of days gathering 1900 spear and 500 sword to "stack" your village, and have spent the last few days spiking your wall. You do not stand alone, certainly. AFTER you struck, in under 24 hours, a total of 6500/6500 (give or take a handful) landed in my village in support. I began releasing them. When you first faked the man you ultimately hit, I told him it was a fake as I could tell from local farming.

Before you actually hit him, I told him it was a real hit, because I could tell you were not farming. We were hoping for another village I had propped up which would have totally ended you, but as I told you, one would kill, one would dent. Luck found you this once.

As I informed you BEFORE you launched, I did not TOUCH defense LOCAL to me. I wanted to whittle you down by having everything you could reach hurt you. As the larger, very poor tribe you worked with found, all the remote villages were full too. Which is why they were wiping their very pathetic attacks. Really, 40 axe with 40 rams? This is almost insulting. I even told you the defense I did receive would not leave exposed areas. Which takes us to the next.

ESL can not win the era. We will always be too small. A large, well coordinated, very dedicated tribe could wipe us. So, we play with discipline. Not one member or ESL has ever visited another tribe. Not even our offensive guys. Yet. See, where you were spending your farming replacing losses, I was not experiencing losses. But, we are disciplined, and honorable. We are "good" neighbors. Tribes in battles may have received our aid, and when it is asked in return, suddenly very good friendships emerge. Suddenly a tribe more traditionally deployed handles many offensive duties while we handle defensive.

Unlike most tribes, loosely formed on many worlds, when a time of danger happens, you see a trickling in of 50/50 support every few hours for half a day, our people land within seconds.

The comment above about offense being superior to defense is largely true with the activity level and superior resources which come from offensive deploys. ESL does bump tech level though. And all of my men are very, very active farmers. We just build defense and LC to achieve this balance and maintain a good defensive balance. In eras gone by, we had the misfortune of landing in a circle around the globe. We were turtles there too, and largely became well known, despite very limited offensive bite until some maturity and area control came to be. In this world we are somewhat more centralized. Thus rather than being just a turtle, we added a bit of snap.

Again, we hold no illusions. Our success or failure in this era will be determined by the strength of our relationships with larger tribes. And our strategic vision is based on the concept we may well be here a year from now.

You are a far more current player than I. You have no tribe, but, we both know you have a tribe. Not just the larger tribe (which is dwindling each day, strangely) you entered into work with, but also your secret friends who speak enough to let us know what your exit strategy is. You have more people helping you than I have helping me. I imagine once you tap into your better core friends, the difference in level between those helping me and those helping you will become more equal. For now I'll just enjoy the advantage, and churn through the 70 members of nonsensical garbage you gave me first, to get to you.

Lokinder, Lord of Tribal Affairs.

 

[DeletedUser102180]

It appears the world is not ready for literate PnP yet my Lord. Perhaps one should resort to one-liners and images.

 

[DeletedUser]

It is true, Battle Lord, the style and substance of our time has diminished in this.

We will remain focused and true to the way. Others will see. Of course -- and note, it is possible to spell of course and not simply write, OFC -- it is FAR too early in this era to introduce it to our brand of PnP. I suspect they will know our manners soon enough. Many will understand. Others will mock.

As always, the majority will die.

I had assumed Killy was off licking his wounds. Rather, he's bragging about being kneecapped at the cost of ONE person's standing defense. That person has the same level wall in queue now that he had when Killy came. He has enough of his own rebuilt defense, behind that wall to kill ALL Killy has left, without aid. Defense costs so little. It takes so much when visitors arrive. It rebuilds so quickly. And it leaves a top attacker incapable of doing anything more to anyone more. Yes. I would be here too, I suppose, if I were Killy, screaming, "Guys, guys, look here, I hurt ONE of them, come help me, I'm all alone. Quick. Hurry, before I die."

Or, more likely, I'd accept my defeat in quiet dignity.

I am merely pleased my future does not reside on the cobbled together mild support levels of a remarkably poor alliance. I mean, nothing symbolizes a stable future MORE than an agreement between an assassin and his hire, when his hire realizes the victim is not only not dead, but rumors of his demise have been greatly overstated. Think they'll know better when cats leave later tonight and take down their largest member? My guess is yes. You'd better call in the hole card Killy.


Lokinder, Lord of Tribal Affairs.

 

[DeletedUser]

Interesting read..

On another note.. Please refrain from double posting

 

[35se]

turtles ftw