Beyond v. Ow! - The battle & the FORK decision

Shadryk 01

Still Going Strong
I few weeks ago, I made this topic regarding the Answer-Beyond merge, and events in the area:

[spoil]
There is a post about the Beyond - Answer merge. Both halves are accused of tribal hugging and avoiding a war. Here are 2 elements:

First, Beyond & Answer were natural allies. Both had lots of room to expand and a clear border that neither side violated. They eliminated friction points by staying in their own Ks. They were of equal size. Larger threats brew to their South. War did not make sense.

The other key element is K23. The tribe Sense emerged as the top rim tribe of K23. Having about 20 empty roster spots, Answer pressed for a merged with Sense. I was a new member of Sense at the time. The leadership refused. Answer then recruited about 7 of the top players from Sense, who then turned on & attacked the rest and was joined with the might of answer.

Sense was outnumbered 3:1. There was an emergency shake-up with the sense leadership. About 15 members fled or were dismissed. But the remaining members rallied and killed all of the defectors, save one. With the players recruited by Answer dying or dead, it seemed likely that the resurgent Sense tribe could fight Answer to a stand-still, or overpower them.

....then Ow! started moving into K23 from the South. Gicusan (Sense) correctly realized they intended to run right over Sense. There was no way we could take on 2 enemies, each three times our size, and positioned on 2 different fronts. The only option was to merge with one tribe and fight the other. The leadership chose to merge with Ow! The fortified Ow tribe would very likely overrun Answer.

By this time, Answer & Beyond each had fewer than 20 members. To Beyond's credit, they avoided recruiting a bunch of trash players just to fill up a roster. Answer appeared to be identifying and culling bad members during the war effort, as well. There are also threats to Beyond and Answer to their South.

From my perspective, the merge of Beyond & Answer is the perfect solution and makes total sense. I can't find any fault with it. A tribe often does not know who their bad players are until a war hits. Answer leadership was apparently able to ID the deadwood, and calculated that it was better to walk away from them and beef up for a fight v. Ow! at the same time, while also steeling themselves against a potential war against a top tribe to their South.
[/spoil]

There have been significant developments (some of which are eluded to elsewhere) and there is also some fulfilled retribution that is leaving a few K23 players quite satisfied.

Sense was marginally winning their war against answer, when Sense felt compelled to merge with Ow! Answer felt compelled to merge with Beyond to preserve their numerical superiority over Sense (now Ow!) players. The war continued. Ow! was a 2.5:1 underdog, but fought basically to a stalemate. Stats are above. Nonetheless, we were beginning to undergo transformative changes within Ow!, with a goal of increasing its combat effectiveness. With this group of players, I believe Ow! would have surged in aggression and defeated Beyond.

Here are the stats in the first stage of the Ow - Beyond war (not sure when it really started):

Side 1:
Tribes: OW!
Side 2:
Tribes: Beyond

Timeframe: 01/11/2011 00:00:00 to 03/12/2011 02:27:50

Total conquers against opposite side:

Side 1: 26
Side 2: 24
Difference: 2



However, things took a different path. While Beyond fought us, there was a question of Beyond (presumably allied with MANIC) of being pulled into a war against FORK. This being the case, war planners in FORK could be concerned about Beyond plowing through Ow and setting up a Northern front on their own border. So, what to do?

From the Answer members who recently joined Beyond, a subset of those players left Beyond to join Fork. One of the recruited players occupied a huge space right in the middle of a very hot battlefield. This move cooled that portion of the battlefield at once. The package deprived Beyond control of k24 (critical for their war effort) and also cut off a handful of Beyond players who were not part of the FORK package.

Ow! quickly disposed of the remaining players who were next to us, especially in K23. Here are the stats for Ow! v. Beyond & 2 players who left or were dismissed during combat, AFTER the key battlefront players from Beyond joined FORK:

Side 1:
Tribes: OW!
Side 2:
Tribes: Beyond
Players: Clan660, ylarkirikal*

Timeframe: 05/12/2011 00:00:00 to 13/12/2011 11:39:54 <---- about 1 week

Total conquers against opposite side:

Side 1: 37
Side 2: 4
Difference: 33



* Beyond players now in FORK also nobled this player, although it is not represented on this chart.

Everybody in Ow would have preferred to fight Beyond at their full strength. We were holding our own & ramping up our efforts. There is some disappointment expressed on this forum regarding this lost opportunity. But, it is what it is. Beyond was gearing up for a long and punishing war. They even recruited a few players in K23, presumably to offer more local firepower and open up a new battlefront. I'm sure that Beyond is extremely disappointed with the way things turned out. Their latest losses on their Western fringe is not a reflection of their ability. It is a reflection of events beyond their control. Those villages were undefendable without a huge and permanent garrison of support.

The players who left Beyond weren't there long enough to forge strong tribal attachments. Beyond did not lose any of their more historic players. Some may see it as a huge betrayal. Personally, I prefer to fight for whatever tribe I'm in, but I'm not going to judge. While it does suck for Beyond, these transitional players are doing what they feel is best for them. Who knows? There may have been some early internal issues that are not known to the general public.

Now, lets rewind back to Sense. A key goal was to utterly destroy every player who initially defected that tribe to join answer. Especially those who took parting shots at our leadership on their way out. I am happy to report that our goal has now been met. The final surviving defector was rimmed a few hours ago. Here is his final village:

[spoil][report_export]http://en58.tribalwars.net/public_report/95e5805686131191456ffc98f58760e7[/report_export]

Well, hell....how do I show this report? Any help? :p Sorry, guys. I don't post too often.[/spoil]

If nothing else, at least a few of the ex-Sense players do get to enjoy this one piece of justice. :icon_biggrin:
 
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KillerKommando

Contributing Poster
I'll admit that the stats are not pleasing to me, but it's to be expected from the caliber of players you launched on.

[12/12/2011 12:28:34 AM] Ylar Kirikal: well
[12/12/2011 12:28:41 AM] Ylar Kirikal: since I dont have nearby support
[12/12/2011 12:28:44 AM] Ylar Kirikal: I think im done
[12/12/2011 12:28:47 AM] Ylar Kirikal: already lost 1 village
[12/12/2011 12:52:22 AM] Ylar Kirikal: Left the tribe not to ---- up your stats
[12/12/2011 12:52:32 AM] Ylar Kirikal: I was doomed after ramps and milk left anyway

That's what Ylar posted in the tribal chat. Not to sound like an ass, but he didn't bother asking for a sitter, support, or even just plain talking in the chat. All he did was leave. Quite frankly, good riddance to players like that. As for Clan, he ditched his sit the day incomings started to land. Sitters defended his account admirably enough. We expected Clan to come back and re-take his account after the incomings, but never did. We unanimously decided to not even bother with his account when OW! started launching your second op.

I can tell you that we'll be back for round two once we clean up the defectors. We still haven't finished our war. :icon_wink:
 

Sewey

Guest
I always enjoy throwly written and seemingly fair post about the action in different K-s
 

faaaaark

Guest
I'll admit that the stats are not pleasing to me, but it's to be expected from the caliber of players you launched on.
You'll admit what...?? That you are terrible leader???

As the Duke of your tribe, you are responsible for the tribal direction, diplomacy, internal affairs AND RECRUITMENT. This issue is a direct indictment on your ability as a leader. When the shit hits the fan, you blame the guy for being useless. Honestly, YOU are the useless one for recruiting a player on the frontline and not making sure he was adequately stacked or prepared.

But hey, by all means... go ahead and blame the player and not the person that recruited him for position on the map. You specifically recruited a frontline player and you would have known that he would come under fire. Pathetic.

That's what Ylar posted in the tribal chat. Not to sound like an ass, but he didn't bother asking for a sitter, support, or even just plain talking in the chat. All he did was leave. Quite frankly, good riddance to players like that.
So you wait for your players to scream for support before acting? How about a little foresight and consider that he WAS the frontline and YOU shuld have arranged to have him stacked and sat 24/7.

As for Clan, he ditched his sit the day incomings started to land. Sitters defended his account admirably enough. We expected Clan to come back and re-take his account after the incomings, but never did. We unanimously decided to not even bother with his account when OW! started launching your second op.
You decided not even to bother???

My God man, stack the guy and kill OW! troops, sit him and annoy the enemy at all costs!!! But no... you simply give up as it's all too hard having to sit an account... Pfft.

I can tell you that we'll be back for round two once we clean up the defectors. We still haven't finished our war. :icon_wink:
Still cleaning up the defectors? How long does it take??? As for round two... you probably should expect Fork's round 2 soon as well.
 

KillerKommando

Contributing Poster
He clearly quoted your words from this thread. Therefore his response is in the right place?

Stop banging the same bin lid KK, and step up
His post is just propaganda for FORK, it has no place in an OW!/Beyond thread, and therefore, it is in the wrong thread. But if it'll shut you up, fine.


You'll admit what...?? That you are terrible leader???

As the Duke of your tribe, you are responsible for the tribal direction, diplomacy, internal affairs AND RECRUITMENT. This issue is a direct indictment on your ability as a leader. When the shit hits the fan, you blame the guy for being useless. Honestly, YOU are the useless one for recruiting a player on the frontline and not making sure he was adequately stacked or prepared.

But hey, by all means... go ahead and blame the player and not the person that recruited him for position on the map. You specifically recruited a frontline player and you would have known that he would come under fire. Pathetic.

So you wait for your players to scream for support before acting? How about a little foresight and consider that he WAS the frontline and YOU shuld have arranged to have him stacked and sat 24/7.

You decided not even to bother???

My God man, stack the guy and kill OW! troops, sit him and annoy the enemy at all costs!!! But no... you simply give up as it's all too hard having to sit an account... Pfft.

Still cleaning up the defectors? How long does it take??? As for round two... you probably should expect Fork's round 2 soon as well.
Once again, Faaaark decides to bold certain parts of posts, then smashes them together to make a point that at best vaguely resembles something he can use against someone. Re-read my post, Faaaark. It says exactly what I'm admitting to.

Yes, I'm one of the people responsible for recruitment. You will always have people saying "I'll do whatever it takes to be in your tribe, just give me a chance!" type of statements. Ylar made one, we took him on his word. Since he was recruited? Next to nothing. He nobled about 10 villages from DT. Nothing against OW!. Nothing against FORK. As I already stated, chat and forum participation was next to nil. Didn't respond to mails. He was one person who didn't live up to his promises.

I didn't recruit him for his position, FYI. Going by the mails and responses of people from Answer, he was originally supposed to come over during the merge, but for some reason was never invited. I now see the reason why he wasn't earlier. His actual frontline was next to nil vs. OW!. Certainly not as much as Clan660, who did receive tribal support. But you seem to keep banging on about his positioning being the only factor in recruiting him. If I wanted to recruit just based on positioning, I'd have recruited a lot more than who I did. :icon_rolleyes:

And onto the stacking part. Ylar didn't get support because he didn't ask for it. He never said he had incomings. He never asked for a sitter. He never said anything at all. I will not order the tribe to support someone who doesn't participate. Frankly, he deserved to get nobled.

Yes, we decided to not even bother. OW! deserved those villages, there wasn't any viable reason to defend them. The owner wasn't coming back. We had no need for the account. In case you didn't realize, we did defend his account once. And once again, you're showing your ignorance of reading our forums. We tell everyone the requirements of being sat, chief among them is the intent to return. If you don't intend to return, we don't care about your account. It's nothing more than villages. It's not hard to defend the account, we already proved that on OW!'s first op. For the second, we sent back all tribal support, and left the account to be nobled.

This thread isn't about FORK. I'll leave that statement at that.
 

farmhound

Guest
Regarding Clan, Things could have been done differently, but each to their own.The bottom line for me is.

I don't really want to play with those who are not willing to help themselves, If anyone comes under attack and panics for whatever the reason, i would have no problem helping with whatever was needed, support/sitting or whatever.But i draw the line when a player won't listen to anyone and just rolls over.

I fully understand why KK did what he did and would stand by him all the way,this is a game to be played for fun and have the banter so to speak with those who choose to play also.Its hard to do so when the person is question won't answer mails/take advice or even just log into the chat for a laugh, makes you wonder what the point is imo.

You may say my opinion is hammered due to current circumstances, and maybe your right, but my opinon would be the same, this is a game to be played for fun with others (hard to when the other won't even say hi)
 

faaaaark

Guest
His post is just propaganda for FORK, it has no place in an OW!/Beyond thread, and therefore, it is in the wrong thread. But if it'll shut you up, fine.
My post is not propaganda for Fork, it's propaganda designed to discredit your ability as a leader and the terrible decisions you put in place for Beyond. Additionally, I discussed the relevance of your post in relation to OW!'s war. Learn how to read and digest information mate.


Once again, Faaaark decides to bold certain parts of posts, then smashes them together to make a point that at best vaguely resembles something he can use against someone. Re-read my post, Faaaark. It says exactly what I'm admitting to.

Yes, I'm one of the people responsible for recruitment.
If you are responsible for recruitment then accept responsibility for a bad recruitment decision. All you did was throw your old tribemates under a bus on the externals. People have real lives and sometimes RL gets in the way of the game. You don't know if anything has happened to these guys, but you simply come here and slam them for not properly holding the line for Beyond.

Instead of actually accepting some responsibilty here, you simply wash your hands of the situation and say that its their fault and we 'dumped' their accounts. You are the Duke of your tribe. Its your role to drive, motivate and if need be, teach people the game. It's not your job to come here and slam those guys. They may have been useless, but you failed to accept any responsibility for your actions. Tbh, I am seeing this trait in you quite often, but that's for another thread.


This thread isn't about FORK. I'll leave that statement at that.
Check the title again buddy, I am completely on topic.

All in all KK, you are almost as bad as Rawr at times. Flaming you is so easy. To post on the externals that your own tribemates were useless and you simply gave up on them is a poor sign for a Duke.
 
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KillerKommando

Contributing Poster
My post is not propaganda for Fork, it's propaganda designed to discredit your ability as a leader and the terrible decisions you put in place for Beyond. Additionally, I discussed the relevance of your post in relation to OW!'s war. Learn how to read and digest information mate.

If you are responsible for recruitment then accept responsibility for a bad recruitment decision. All you did was throw your old tribemates under a bus on the externals. People have real lives and sometimes RL gets in the way of the game. You don't know if anything has happened to these guys, but you simply come here and slam them for not properly holding the line for Beyond.

Instead of actually accepting some responsibilty here, you simply wash your hands of the situation and say that its their fault and we 'dumped' their accounts. You are the Duke of your tribe. Its your role to drive, motivate and if need be, teach people the game. It's not your job to come here and slam those guys. They may have been useless, but you failed to accept any responsibility for your actions. Tbh, I am seeing this trait in you quite often, but that's for another thread.

Check the title again buddy, I am completely on topic.

All in all KK, you are almost as bad as Rawr at times. Flaming you is so easy. To post on the externals that your own tribemates were useless and you simply gave up on them is a poor sign for a Duke.
What terrible decisions are those, pray tell? You're worse than a scored lover. I made the best decisions at the time they were to be made, and I stand by those decisions now. You didn't discuss any relevance at all. You merely went on one of your sub-psychotic rants. What I had to say had nothing to do with FORK at all save for one bit at the end, which wasn't even about FORK, just the players they happened to recruit.

I did accept responsibility for that. Why you keep saying I'm not is beyond me. :icon_neutral:

I made the best decision at the time, it turned out badly because he didn't live up to his promises. Simple as. You come on here touting RL as an excuse, players whose RL gets in the way of TW should at the very least have the decency to tell someone that they're under attack, that they don't plan on being here, that something came up and they'll happily return. Ylar did nothing. Clan said he was playing W60 (and still was during the time of the incomings) so don't try pulling that RL excuse on me. Try doing your research before making up excuses, no matter how good you are at making them, Faaaaark.

Again; I have accepted responsibility for it. You can't teach people who aren't responsive. You can't add more hours in a day for people to play TW. I'm one half of the equation, they are the other half. I held up my end of the deal, they did not. So yes, I'm going to bash them for not doing it.

Did you read the original post, or did you seriously just go down to my post and start typing up a response to it without reading it? Shadryk didn't spend time out of his day writing it for nothing, and quite honestly, it's a fairly good post despite it not being in Beyond's favor. This thread isn't about FORK, at all. It's about OW!'s views on what FORK did. Not only that, you didn't respond to those bits, you only responded to mine.

Again; I didn't give up on them. They weren't around to give up on. I refuse to spend tribal resources to help those who cannot help themselves. I'd much rather use that support for someone who participates, not just takes up space on our roster.
 

kidcudi420

New Member
Well since you are in Beyond, more importantly the Duke of Beyond, and Beyond is part of the topic, you and everyone else in Beyond is part of the discussion lol
 

Rawr Mode

Guest
well said KK and it is FORK propraganda when you bash another tribe or tribal leaders and try and discredit them publicly. why do it at all fark if it has no other motive behind it :icon_rolleyes:

people need to learn that 1 person does not make up a tribe, there is just more then 1 person that makes up a tribe.

double standards imo. if a tribe has trouble its blamed on one person :icon_rolleyes: but if a tribe is successful its credited to the entire tribe :icon_rolleyes:

you guys seriously should make up your mind lol
 
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