Closed Discussion Community Improvement

[Deleted User - 11549951]

Thats an interesting idea!
I agree with Unjustified Killer's idea however i would suggest such a setting becomes implemented on for example, 2/5 worlds released.
Although Premades have a big advantage, they should also be allowed to continue as a big part of this game relies on playing alongside your friends.

 

[Deleted User - 848885670]

I think there is an easy fix to this.

When starting on new worlds, Player should be set into a tribe already of groups of 20 players where for the first 3 months of the game. They cant leave that group. (Tribe) This will give a mix of experienced and new players in each group. Im sure after the initial 3 month period where those experienced players cant leave the group they have been placed in will end up teaching the new players how to play, If they also want to get passed the 3 month period to be able to join up with their friends, It also gives a balance of tribes. You wont get one elite tribe dominating the server from day 1 till the end.


This will also give dukes a chance to shine. Best mentors her will previal

This has actually been tried before. Over 10 years ago at this point I believe, on W27. Back when the player-base was so large that two worlds would be released at once with very different settings, but you could only join one (at least, on the same account).

Back then, TW pre-made something like 200 tribes, with a 100 member cap. As players joined the world, they would automatically get filtered into a random tribe. After a few days, everyone then had to vote on who would become duke of that tribe. Tribes were locked for 3 months from the start of the world, and you could not kick players or disband tribes until after that 3 month period expired.

From what I remember, the reactions were mixed, but leaning towards the negative side. The system simply placed people into tribes as they joined, with no other filters that I'm aware of, so you ended up with tribes spread and intermingled everywhere. Was cool to see early maps of this, for sure, but for the new player who's village got placed next to that of an experienced player in another tribe, you had no reliable support. It was pretty much luck of the draw for what tribes got experienced players, where everyone was located, and what tribes got a heavier share of the inactive 26 point players. The tribe who lost 50 players to inactivity in the first month clearly wouldn't do as well as the tribe that only lost 10, and you still had to endure 2 months of that. It was unpopular for many because there were a lot more factors based purely on luck that they had zero control over.

I believe this was also one of the lower population worlds at the time as well, simply because many found the settings to be unpopular.

That being said, I know some people loved it. Some tribes did have that chemistry that you talk about, where there are experienced players willing to teach the newer ones and everyone had a pretty good time. It just wasn't the same for everyone. For every player who found love for game and learned on W27, there was another who grew disillusioned, stuck in a tribe of inactives for three months while the experienced players kept to themselves and plotted about what tribe they would jump to after 3 months elapsed.

Did it work for some, and would it work for some now? I'd say yes. However, I would not call it an easy fix. If they wanted to revisit this setting, I think they would need a lot more control factors added in, such as a system that swept for inactive players and removed them, and looked to merge the resulting small tribes together to keep some sort of equilibrium across tribes during this locked phase.

 

[One Last Shot...]

I think the fixed tribes suggestion is a great idea if it has a few tweaks (and not being a setting for every world, just periodic ones - perhaps linked to Watchtower + Fake limit worlds where the game is slanted in favour or defense).

There would need to be a system in place for accounts who join a world and immediately go inactive (perhaps the ability to dismiss accounts, but only once they turn yellow, during the locked tribes could be a feature).

A higher tribe limit (say 30) would be important, as well as it being done by continent.

To avoid players 'teaching' accounts to grow big only to then noble them, having the 'unable to attack tribemates' function and tribes being permanently locked for a set period would be important.

I would also suggest that the timeframe of tribes being locked is 'random', or pre-determined by admin and not revealed to players until the moment at which it happens, to avoid tribes being able to pre-plan for a specific date when tribes become 'unlocked' and players are able to form their own tribes.

 

[JawJaw]

Would anyone be up for trying fixed tribes on en115?

I would be open for it, and I can see the advantage for new users; I just worry a little about how "older gen" players may choose not to play it at all.

 

[Frying Pan Warrior]

Who would the duke be? The server itself? Paul the Paladin picks the name and stuff?

A premade would just become a super power, as their tribemates will be spread out into other tribes and they will be able to plan against each others' members. It will do more harm than good. You'd have spies in every tribe.

 

[Aretas]

Fixed tribes would be a terrible idea IMO. There are so many people now who start worlds only to play for a couple days before quitting, or who are playing the world just to pp farm for another world. You would get players both new and old who want to play the world serious, but are stuck in "dead" tribes for months. Plus a lot of "older gen" players would just skip the world entirely, as if you can't play with your friends, then what's the point? Implementing the world setting would just drive away "experienced" players who would be the expected leaders/teachers, and leave new players who potentially want to learn the game and get more involved in dead tribes of people who joined for the day and then quit.

 

[Ragestyles]

i don't think fixed tribes works for bigger worlds for the reasons mentioned above.

very unlikely that every single person keeps actively playing in a tribe for a year or longer in actual game worlds. You will eventually end up with a half tribe that does diplo with every surrounding active players still.
I think this setting only works for faster worlds 4.0 game speed+ like HP, classic and speed rounds.


This also would strongly promote co-playing while it is not officially supported which can lead to even more cases where accounts get sabotaged since acc owners need to share their login details if they decide to quit early in a fixed tribe world. I don't like it.

 

[DaWolf85]

I have been wondering how well it might work to have a soft tribe lock. You could leave a tribe anytime you wanted, but there would be a cooldown of at least 30 days before you could leave a tribe again (or a shorter cooldown before you could join another tribe, depending on how you wanted to do it).

The way I see that looking in practice is to have players automatically placed into large tribes when they join the world. The dukes of these tribes would be elected in some manner. Players could leave these tribes, with the aforementioned cooldown in effect. New tribes could be created, but their member limit would be much lower than the 'default' tribes.

Additional useful settings to have on for this sort of world would be the 'attacks against tribemates turn into visits' setting (for newb-friendliness) and the support outside the tribe limits set to Uber, to limit the effectiveness of family tribes (thus enforcing the low member limit of 'new' tribes).

My main questions with this soft of 'soft lock' is how kicking members from the tribe would work, and how recruitment to the 'default' tribes would work. Outside of those unresolved questions, I feel like it could be a very viable setup, by placing any attempt to create a premade at an inherent disadvantage, while not prohibiting it entirely.

 

[Aretas]

Any form of "tribe lock" that tries to mix players randomly will not work. A hard randomized tribe lock has all of the flaws pointed out above. A "soft tribe lock" would be even more abusable and a disaster lol. Premades would either look to "take over" a default tribe. Get someone in the premade made leader, and then make your tribe as you would normally if you can kick/add people. If you can't then default tribes will be useless as people normally start dropping, meaning that making your own premade tribe with a lower tribemember setting would have no downside. Basically would thus just end up with mass "noob" default tribes where all the experienced players have left to make their own tribes and new players are again left out.

 

[Aretas]

Firstly, i find this thread somewhat insulting considering that one on a very similar theme was done last year and literally nothing has changed since that point in time from any perspective.

https://forum.tribalwars.net/index....o-make-it-more-friendly-for-beginners.283733/

Paul literally said it already, but I guess it bears repeating. But as an "experienced" member of the community its getting kinda dull to be continuously asked for advice on how to make the game more friendly for beginners, only to then be ignored, and asked the same question over again for the process to restart.

Helping new players out would be so easy, that the fact it hasn't been done begs the question of if inno really wants to do anything about it. Simply providing links to both the forums "game guides" collection and "scripts" pages would be a huge help to new players actually interested in learning the game, that probably have no clue either exist. You could even take each a step farther a sticky a "beginners guide" for both so that they are easily found. Include a "start up guide, scavanging guide, pp farming guide, and cancel sniping" one in the folder for people to see. Then make a script one with LAE, a couple different snipe scripts, a fake script, and a coord grabber. All of this information is available on the forums. Make it easy for new players to find. At that point, well you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.

Stop trying to radically change the game to make it more "noob" friendly and actually work on educating new players in game mechanics instead lol. I know multiple times different experienced and good players have offered to help week the in game quests so that they actually give new players a good start. Implementing smaller things like this would be way more successful in both educating and bettering new players, while not driving away the more "older/experienced" players that are getting fed up with all the changes to make the game easier and are just broken instead.

 

[Arcward]

I think that trying fixed tribes again in the state previously released wouldn't do much help - however if it were done with adjustments as per local continent selected tribes, ability to kick the 1 login players etc noted above, it's feasible. I'd rather see something like this pushed out than a new win condition attempt any day.

Maybe HP is a good environment to release something like this? A world without motivation to get a profile badge, still premium features and a faster paced environment that is more forgiving than making a mistake on speed 1 and having to rebuild troops for 2 weeks.

 

[One Last Shot...]

Helping new players out would be so easy, that the fact it hasn't been done begs the question of if inno really wants to do anything about it. Simply providing links to both the forums "game guides" collection and "scripts" pages would be a huge help to new players actually interested in learning the game, that probably have no clue either exist. You could even take each a step farther a sticky a "beginners guide" for both so that they are easily found. Include a "start up guide, scavanging guide, pp farming guide, and cancel sniping" one in the folder for people to see. Then make a script one with LAE, a couple different snipe scripts, a fake script, and a coord grabber. All of this information is available on the forums. Make it easy for new players to find. At that point, well you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.

There's a few suggestions here so turning them into bullet points first for clarification before I reply to the general post

• Provide links to game guide collections & scripts
• Detailed beginnger / script guides in multiple folders

The issue with this is that scripts are independent tools. Should one be taken offline by the creator, then that means TW is deliberately advertising something ingame that could be broken / tampered with to make illegal. With scripts being hosted externally as opposed to the coding that was often used in quickbars 10 years ago, this is much more of a risk than it was before.

It is also worth noting, scripts are all external resources, not controlled or owned by Innogames. So I don't personally see 'script advertising' being okay - over time, things get built into the game (eg the tagging tool).

Taking myself back to when I was a new player, I attempted to search the external forums for guides and scripts. I found some, tried reading them and although they were 'for beginners', 90% of it went over my head and I remember it all leaving me far more confused than I was before. So I don't buy into the 'provide links' for new players. For players who have been around a while and understand the basics of the game already, sure. But I don't believe (speaking from my own experience) that this will help players who are trying out the game for the first time. I honestly think it would push them away further.

My experiences were based on learning when playing solo from some extremely talented people. In my case, a player called MinderBinder. The discussions he had with me, the explanations, those were what taught me how to play the game. It was never a link to a guide, but a conversation. Which is what I believe is the best way for players to learn the game.

That's why I believe a tribe-lock (although different to how it used to function) would be the best way forward - to give players plenty of time to have those conversations. Not every world, and certainly not a hugely regular setting. I would be looking for one where it is more location based, allows players to be dismissed if they 'go yellow', allows others to randomly end up in the tribe if they join the world in the same direction. And personally, I would prefer it to not be a 'permanent' lock but instead one with a semi-fixed time length.

 

[lodi94]

Would anyone be up for trying fixed tribes on en115?

I would be open for it, and I can see the advantage for new users; I just worry a little about how "older gen" players may choose not to play it at all.

I usually don't play on net but i will if something similar happens

 

[Mintyfresh]

Surely tribelock or fixed tribes is just another bandaid to the issue of new player retention by taking away player agency?

Reducing the number impactful choices a player can make isnt really the right way to go about fixing the core problem that the game has a ridiculously steep learning curve and any investment on your time/money is too long-term for most new players (weeks/months rather than minutes/hours).

Literally forcing 'vet' players to have to assist new players if they want to be successful in the world is once again forcing the onerous onto the community to find solutions to the problem rather than inno having to do something themselves. Like you're making it a chore and a burden for 'vets' rather than a learning experience to be enjoyed by both parties

So no, i dont think its a good idea.

 

[HotLikeDat]

Indeed, I think a fixed tribe lock would be a disaster. Mintyfresh knows what's up.

 

[Unjustified Killer]

Would anyone be up for trying fixed tribes on en115?

I would be open for it, and I can see the advantage for new users; I just worry a little about how "older gen" players may choose not to play it at all.

I would definitely be up for a world like this, It would be nice for some older more experienced players to educate new users, The new users will also be needed just as much as the older players if they want to evolve further in the tribe (game). Servers like this could be implemented every 5-6 worlds as educational servers. To be fair its not a hard game to learn, there are some selfish players around but i think there is also a good community here that would like to see new players and willing to help them understand the basics.

 

[Aretas]

The issue with this is that scripts are independent tools. Should one be taken offline by the creator, then that means TW is deliberately advertising something ingame that could be broken / tampered with to make illegal. With scripts being hosted externally as opposed to the coding that was often used in quickbars 10 years ago, this is much more of a risk than it was before.

It is also worth noting, scripts are all external resources, not controlled or owned by Innogames. So I don't personally see 'script advertising' being okay - over time, things get built into the game (eg the tagging tool).

Taking myself back to when I was a new player, I attempted to search the external forums for guides and scripts. I found some, tried reading them and although they were 'for beginners', 90% of it went over my head and I remember it all leaving me far more confused than I was before. So I don't buy into the 'provide links' for new players. For players who have been around a while and understand the basics of the game already, sure. But I don't believe (speaking from my own experience) that this will help players who are trying out the game for the first time. I honestly think it would push them away further.

My experiences were based on learning when playing solo from some extremely talented people. In my case, a player called MinderBinder. The discussions he had with me, the explanations, those were what taught me how to play the game. It was never a link to a guide, but a conversation. Which is what I believe is the best way for players to learn the game.

That's why I believe a tribe-lock (although different to how it used to function) would be the best way forward - to give players plenty of time to have those conversations. Not every world, and certainly not a hugely regular setting. I would be looking for one where it is more location based, allows players to be dismissed if they 'go yellow', allows others to randomly end up in the tribe if they join the world in the same direction. And personally, I would prefer it to not be a 'permanent' lock but instead one with a semi-fixed time length.

1) . As far as scripts go, I would like to hope that at least 1 mod/dev for the game is also playing the game. And going from there basically every experienced player playing is using some form of farm/snipe/fake/coord-grabber script, I think it should be fairly easy to keep an updated folder of those 4 basic scripts for new users to have access to and use. As long as you don't have new players even knowing about scripts and their use in game, then they will be at a huge disadvantage any way you slice it. Its that simple lol. Your whole argument here basically boils down to "inno doesn't want to put the time in to make sure scripts work, so we are going to rely on vets to do that and then pray they share them with new players". If Inno isn't willing to put in any work here, why should the players? what do we get out of this aside from continuing to be ignored in general by the game devs?

2) So just because you personally did not find the online guides/guide page a useful tool to learn the game we should completely ignore it when trying to teach new players? That's so dumb lol, everyone learns in different ways, but lets just purposely ignore a get teaching method we have available to us because it might not help some people. As a vet player who taught plenty of new players before, there are definitely some out there that want guides they can read. If you found guides confusing, then maybe they need better organization. But not even telling new players about their existence is a pretty big oversight and would be an easy fix to give players another tool to use to try and learn the game more.

3) Finally why should people continue to accept sacrifices to their gameplay in the name of "helping new players" if mods/devs aren't willing to do any work themselves first? Like if Inno isn't willing to put a small scripts/guides part into the beginner quests, then why should experienced players accept another game design that only hurts their gameplay to try, and once again fail, to improve player retention via educating new players. As mintyfresh pointed out the community has suggested tons of methods to improve new player game play for over a year now, and we've seen none of them implemented by Inno. Instead we are left with shit watchtower+fake limit world settings, the tried and massively failed "delayed support" lol, and now its fixed tribes. Maybe the devs should either for once listen to the ideas of its community or else solve problems on their own, and not just continue to shove them off onto the "vets" in the community.

 

[One Last Shot...]

2) So just because you personally did not find the online guides/guide page a useful tool to learn the game we should completely ignore it when trying to teach new players? That's so dumb lol, everyone learns in different ways, but lets just purposely ignore a get teaching method we have available to us because it might not help some people.

As a vet player who taught plenty of new players before, there are definitely some out there that want guides they can read. If you found guides confusing, then maybe they need better organization. But not even telling new players about their existence is a pretty big oversight and would be an easy fix to give players another tool to use to try and learn the game more.

I am not ignoring a 'teaching method' at all. Teaching involves interaction. What you are suggesting requires independent research, which particularly younger people really struggle with and I do not believe many players would go out of their way to hunt down such detailed information about a game before they've even gotten into it. That isn't how the majority of people learn - most learning happens through conversation and dialogue.

As someone who works as a teacher for a living, I wouldn't ignore anything that I believe is likely to successfully educate the majority of players. Peer to peer learning and dialogue has always been the most important way to learn. That's why almost every country has a very important period of life called schooling - not 'independent researching'

 

[Unjustified Killer]

All the negative posts towards this lean more towards more selfish players. A lot of selfish responses from people unwilling to educate tribe members its those players and kinds of attitudes that spoil the game.

I don't see anything negative in trying to help your whole tribe succeed not just rush yourself to rank 1 in any means and ways possible.
I was taught the game by peers, Leaders who had the time to sit down and answers questions and go through things in more detail than any available guides I was able to find

 

[Deleted User - 11549951]

there should be a guide for village buildups and troops recruitment.

do missions which make a player sprint correctly in the beginning.
basic village buildup to the stable and 500 spears along with the scavenging and farming basics ( i would say the current one renders incomplete)
at which point you can introduce offense or defense buildups for players.

i would also suggest the missions go on for longer as a guide.
experienced players dont necessarily need to follow the guide anyway so, you could add an option in settings to skip missions.