Discussion: Update to version 8.22

[DeletedUser]

Innogames re-defined "skill":

Skill:

- 2-3 members of 2-3 families send 30k fakes with scripts by mindlessly using shortcuts to do the job for you.
- Staying awake 24/7 to tag 30k fakes manually with some in game function that takes hours and doesn't accurately tag attack speeds.

Not Skill:

- Having a tribe database a list of attack ids and having the ability for a team to work together to keep an accurate database while also having the ability to evaluate said attack ids to properly determine attack speed through the uses math equations.

In sum:

Skill: clicking or typing a key 50,000 times all day long.(or even once depending on some currently available methods)

Not skill: Utilizing knowledge, abilities and an active tribe working together to organize, evaluate and utilize "data".

While I'm not opposed to removing attack id's as there are some current methods/scripts that make it ridiculously easy to identify attack speeds, the most fundamental issue with this is you removed something that BALANCED this game. Please implement a function to balance the awesome amazing SKILL of typing 1 hotkey to send 1000's of fakes in minutes time.

It's a pretty basic concept here: when altering A, make sure B doesn't become unbalanced.

I generally support/side with mods decisions but you guys dropped the ball on this one. Big time fail right here.

EDIT:

SUGGESTION:

Keep the attack id's masked, however, add an in-game tribe hidden database where members need to actively update this database. Offer the ability for the tribe to use an "alternative" in game mass tagger to tag estimated times based on the in-game database(hidden from view).

Keep the current in game mass tagging function to tag attacks that are actually witnessed at launching, but also offer the option to "estimate" the speed based on your tribes personal attack id log. The more a tribe works together to keep this it updated, the more accurate it is. Removes 3rd party software that could be malicious and also balances the "mass faking with ease" issue.

TW/INNO can not truly expect that every account is going to be monitored 24/7. Even with sitter options. Who wants to spend 4-8 months growing an account all to come into 5000+ attacks that cannot be identified because they had school, or work or sleep or needed to go out for a day.

Tagging 5000 attacks from an IPHONE log isn't feasible. Games are designed to be enjoyable, not miserable.

 

[DeletedUser]

Attack id's are no where near as important as players think they are.

Just because you have gotten used to a particular tool such as attack id's does not mean that it is the end all solution. I do not mind their going away as for the last 5-6 years whatever it has been I have only used that as a tool once and got bored very quickly. The game is designed to be played without that accuracy...this will bring back alot of the strategic elements of an international game that I personally miss before people figured attack id's out.

jeez, the eternal noob has something silly to say again. how much did you pay to become in-game staff?
The fact that you still don't understand how the game works should refrain you from commenting at all

 

[DeletedUser]

jeez, the eternal noob has something silly to say again. how much did you pay to become in-game staff?
The fact that you still don't understand how the game works should refrain you from commenting at all

Constructive criticism is needed, not trolls. How about offering some type of solution.

To deny attack id scripts were excessively unbalanced/used with off site tools is just as ignorant as saying attack id's in general are not important.

Bottom line is mass attack bots, mass attack shortcut methods and mass faking now has an unfair advantage.

How many fakes can 5 accounts send to someone in 1 hours time? Can this be defended in equal time and effort if the account owner was asleep for 6-8 hours? No, the only method is to sit behind your computer for the entire day with your phone app trying to figure out which attack was which.

No balance = lame game.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

Bottom line is mass attack bots, mass attack shortcut methods and mass faking now has an unfair advantage.

They were always an unfair advantage. Even if you bring back attack ID, it still takes some effort to keep it going and it's not always 100% accurate. Thats why we all want auto-tagging.

 

[DeletedUser]

Just to recap: no one appreciates the fact that now defending requires a co-player, while attacking has been made easier.

To expound on Nozguleth's statement, this is Tribal Wars. Not Co-Player Wars. Attack IDs made it very important to have a good tribe. And if you had that good tribe, defending was streamlined. A good tribe made your defense intelligent. Not easy, mindless, etc.

Logging IDs was a crucial element of defending. It was something you maintained. You maintained your defense. Now, you just panic and push some button. Yes ... excellent job making the game more skillfully played.

Here's the huge thing that changed, for me, though. I can no longer check to see if my tags make sense! I used to go through and tag everything, then sort my attacks to see if send times were out of place, or for some other reason "suspicious". Mass faking didn't scare me. The more attacks sent, the more data I had to find a pattern in. It took some time, but the more time I spent, the better my tags were.

People in my tribe would actually request my time to tag their incomings. You think that'll happen again? There's no such thing as a "good tagger" now.

 

[DeletedUser]

They were always an unfair advantage. Even if you bring back attack ID, it still takes some effort to keep it going and it's not always 100% accurate. Thats why we all want auto-tagging.

True, but attack ID scripts at least offered something to balance. A good tribe with an id updated every 15-30 minutes and knowledge of how to mass tag with multiple tabs made it "fair". I liked the element of having a tribe that works as a team(logging attack id's, evaluating reports as a tribe, sending fakes together,ect..ect..ect..) The tribe whose teamwork is better(attack id logs included) made a stronger group. Autotagging removes this element.

I'd love to see an in game function that benefits the tribe that works as a team. My biggest issue with any change is drastic change without any form of balance.

We were notified in this post on 04/25/14 that these changes would take place on 04/28/14. How many accounts were completely ruined due to this? How many people logged in after the weekend with no option to defend there account? It's not the change that bothers me, its the imbalance.

I'm not sure if Auto-tagging is the best solution. Although it's clearly better than the current solution of being required to have your entire tribes accounts monitored 24/7.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

True, but attack ID scripts at least offered something to balance. A good tribe with an id updated every 15-30 minutes and knowledge of how to mass tag with multiple tabs made it "fair".

Point me to a tribe that managed to keep updating the attack ID thread every 15-30 minutes, for a longer period than a few days. By the way, I'm in no way advocating the removal of attack IDs. I was pointing out that "mass attack bots, mass attack shortcut methods and mass faking " have always been an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it.

I liked the element of having a tribe that works as a team(logging attack id's, evaluating reports as a tribe, sending fakes together,ect..ect..ect..) The tribe whose teamwork is better(attack id logs included) made a stronger group. Autotagging removes this element.

Yes, because supporting, attacking, sniping and the various other parts of the game are just boring and don't show any teamwork what so ever. Why do we even defend? Just spam a bunch of fakes their way, their likely to pissoff, right? :icon_idea:

If you didn't get this by now, this is the sole reason most players want auto-tagging is that they have no interest in spending hours on faking and tagging while spending minutes to time attacks and properly defending. That's all the game is nowdays. Send a bunch of fakes, send out nukes and fakes, "time" noble trains behind the nukes and send some support. Hope for the best. It's only getting repetitive this way.

 

[DeletedUser]

Point me to a tribe that managed to keep updating the attack ID thread every 15-30 minutes, for a longer period than a few days..

My current tribe. We even had a % on how accurate the tagger was based on submissions and also identified whom the most active updaters were. Albeit it was a private tagger that auto sorted any attack ID and could be update attacks at any time and was NOT the standard attack id thread that you see floating around.

Tribes are 30-40 member limits. 50 updates a day is appox 1 every 30 minutes. Add in co-players and the fact its an international game and it's not that hard to maintain an accurate database. Not my fault your tribes failed at updating.

No sense in debating back and forth as we both agree there is a fundamental issue here. However, im unsure how an auto-tagger would solve the "repetitive" nature of this game. Auto tagging will basically allow everyone to identify every noble and its quit easy to defend noble attacks.

For me sniping isn't boring/repetitive. There is a margin of error, you could miss, you might not have enough D to block a heavy escort. It's exciting for me to wait till that exact 400ms gap to fit in some D. That's hardly boring and mindless. Tagging 1000 incommings is boring, sending 1000 fakes is boring.

If you think sending attacks, snipes, trains and support is boring, then this game is always going to be boring for you. Auto-tagging wont make it exciting.

 

[DeletedUser]

Point me to a tribe that managed to keep updating the attack ID thread every 15-30 minutes, for a longer period than a few days. By the way, I'm in no way advocating the removal of attack IDs. I was pointing out that "mass attack bots, mass attack shortcut methods and mass faking " have always been an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it.

Doesn't that just show that attack IDs are a skillful method of defense? If not many can do it, it's something that adds advantage to those willing to go the extra inch. I put a lot of effort into getting people on board with using them. Even then, probably half my tribe wasn't willing to improve their game.

If you're willing to work harder, you should be defending better. Attack IDs actually did this. It didn't just make everyone lucky or unlucky enough to see an attack.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

My current tribe. We even had a % on how accurate the tagger was based on submissions and also identified whom the most active updaters were. Albeit it was a private tagger that auto sorted any attack ID and could be update attacks at any time and was NOT the standard attack id thread that you see floating around.

Yeah, sure. :icon_idea:

Tribes are 30-40 member limits. 50 updates a day is appox 1 every 30 minutes. Add in co-players and the fact its an international game and it's not that hard to maintain an accurate database. Not my fault your tribes failed at updating.

By using that logic. Tribes are 30-40 member limits. 24 hours a day is a approx 1 player online an hour. Add in co-players and the fact it's an international game and it's not that hard to find a sitter to tag incomings. Not my fault your tribe fails at sitting. :icon_idea:

No sense in debating back and forth as we both agree there is a fundamental issue here. However, im unsure how an auto-tagger would solve the "repetitive" nature of this game. Auto tagging will basically allow everyone to identify every noble and its quit easy to defend noble attacks.

Then try to mask them with fake nobles. You can more frequently use catapults to damage villages, not just noble all of them out. Send nobles from closer range, if you can't, noble the barbarians around and try to do so.

For me sniping isn't boring/repetitive. There is a margin of error, you could miss, you might not have enough D to block a heavy escort. It's exciting for me to wait till that exact 400ms gap to fit in some D. That's hardly boring and mindless. Tagging 1000 incommings is boring, sending 1000 fakes is boring.

Where did I say I find sniping boring?

If you think sending attacks, snipes, trains and support is boring, then this game is always going to be boring for you. Auto-tagging wont make it exciting.

:icon_rolleyes:

Doesn't that just show that attack IDs are a skillful method of defense? If not many can do it, it's something that adds advantage to those willing to go the extra inch. I put a lot of effort into getting people on board with using them. Even then, probably half my tribe wasn't willing to improve their game.

I'm not advocating the removal of attack IDs. I was simply pointing out that I don't believe anyone has a tribe that keeps updating it's attack ID thread every 15-30 minutes for a prolonged time and if you had that kind of activity, you wouldn't need attack IDs in the first place.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, sure. :icon_idea:

By using that logic. Tribes are 30-40 member limits. 24 hours a day is a approx 1 player online an hour. Add in co-players and the fact it's an international game and it's not that hard to find a sitter to tag incomings. Not my fault your tribe fails at sitting. :icon_idea:

Then try to mask them with fake nobles. You can more frequently use catapults to damage villages, not just noble all of them out. Send nobles from closer range, if you can't, noble the barbarians around and try to do so.

Where did I say I find sniping boring?

:icon_rolleyes:

Yes, because supporting, attacking, sniping and the various other parts of the game are just boring and don't show any teamwork what so ever. Why do we even defend?

I'm not advocating the removal of attack IDs. I was simply pointing out that I don't believe anyone has a tribe that keeps updating it's attack ID thread every 15-30 minutes for a prolonged time and if you had that kind of activity, you wouldn't need attack IDs in the first place.

Not all attack id scripts were updated in a thread. Learn about off site databasing before you comment.

Regarding fake nobles, try that on a packet world with FULL COST rebuild. Nobody with 100 villages is gonna burn 400 packets for a "fake".

I'm not going to argue with you anymore as thats clearly your only goal here.

I suggest doing some research before you spew nonsense out of your mouth as everything i've posted was factual. We were fortunate enough to have a very dedicated and talented scripter that made us a private attack id database that was simple and easy to update/use.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

Not all attack id scripts were updated in a thread. Learn about off site databasing before you comment.

I'm sorry. Last I played, such methods were considered illegal.

"Yes, because supporting, attacking, sniping and the various other parts of the game are just boring and don't show any teamwork what so ever. Why do we even defend?"

That was sarcasm. Next time Ill put a spoiler below just for you. :icon_idea:

Regarding fake nobles, try that on a packet world with FULL COST rebuild. Nobody with 100 villages is gonna burn 400 packets for a "fake".

Then don't use fake nobles on a full cost packet world? Send them from nearby villages. Think of something that would be a better alternative then just sending a bunch of fakes to mask a noble train.

I suggest doing some research before you spew nonsense out of your mouth as everything i've posted was factual. We were fortunate enough to have a very dedicated and talented scripter that made us a private attack id database that was simple and easy to update/use.

Again. Last I played, such methods were considered illegal. In fact, I remember various players getting banned for this.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore as thats clearly your only goal here.

What should I do besides that? Agree? I'm arguing as to why I think you're wrong. How else should I approach this? :icon_neutral:

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm sorry. Last I played, such methods were considered illegal.

"Yes, because supporting, attacking, sniping and the various other parts of the game are just boring and don't show any teamwork what so ever. Why do we even defend?"

That was sarcasm. Next time Ill put a spoiler below just for you. :icon_idea:

Then don't use fake nobles on a full cost packet world? Send them from nearby villages. Think of something that would be a better alternative then just sending a bunch of fakes to mask a noble train.

Again. Last I played, such methods were considered illegal. In fact, I remember various players getting banned for this.

What should I do besides that? Agree? I'm arguing as to why I think you're wrong. How else should I approach this? :icon_neutral:

- Didn't read it as sarcasm.

- Nothing was done illegally, all rules were followed. Database did nothing more than a report vault or what TWFR did before Farm Assistant. Just with attack id's not reports.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

- Didn't read it as sarcasm.

Apology accepted.

- Nothing was done illegally, all rules were followed. Database did nothing more than a report vault or what TWFR did before Farm Assistant. Just with attack id's not reports.

I still don't believe that you managed to keep it updated every 30 minutes, for say, a week. If you can't prove this, don't bother arguing it further as you won't change my mind.

 

[DeletedUser]

I didn't, a tribe of 30 accounts did. That was not an apology. Again, you are just trolling so this will by my last reply to you as I've already stated mass faking is lame and you are not even thinking about your responses, they are just troll responses and having 100x the posts as me while joining one year after me supports my claim that you are nothing but a troll.

Not opposed to seeking alternative methods to fight. I'm seeking and bringing up the point that removing attack id's creates a major imbalance in this game.

In any note, we are still both stuck with the same issue. Mass faking/tagging without any solution. Auto-tagging solves one issue, but causes many more. Attack id databasing, either built in or not offers a solution.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

I didn't, a tribe of 30 accounts did. That was not an apology.

- Read it as an apology.

:lol:

Auto-tagging solves one issue, but causes many more. Attack id databasing, either built in or not offers a solution.

Which you will now point out to us... right?

Again, you are just trolling so this will by my last reply to you as I've already stated mass faking is lame and you are not even thinking about your responses, they are just troll responses and having 100x the posts as me while joining one year after me supports my claim that you are nothing but a troll.

Do you really have any arguments to base this on? I do think about my responses. Yet again, using your logic I can claim the exact same about you and use it as an argument to end this argument "in my favor" so to speak. :icon_idea:

I have more posts then you? Wow. This can only be because I'm a huge troll. Well. You caught me. I give up. I'm a huge troll. [spoil]Or I just spent more time on the forums then you.[spoil]I guess it's part true. I'm a "troll". I enjoy a laugh of two when discussing certain subjects. However I'm not trolling you at all.[/spoil][/spoil]

 

[DeletedUser]

Some:

- Removes the teamwork or TRIBAL aspect of maintaining a database and using info/data skillfully to there advantage.
- Limits the functionality of troop speeds. I.e. close range nobles can't be masked as rams.
- Gives defenders a huge advantaging being able to identify every unit speed at any given time.
- Completely negates any tagging function innogames implemented if its already tagged at launch.


Having a built in game function that allows a tribe to database a "hidden" attack id list that will give an estimate of the speed based on the tribes dedication/activity allows fakes to be used. Takes 1 second to click a button after launching an attack to database an ID. No different then taking a minute to look at a scout report before launching, or taking time to farm for more resource, taking time to send resources, ect..ect..ect.. Little things people do make the difference between a strong tribe and a weak tribe.

Just having everything auto-tagged gives defenders an unfair advantage not keeping the game balanced.

 

[DeletedUser105718]

Some:

- Removes the teamwork or TRIBAL aspect of maintaining a database and using info/data skillfully to there advantage.

Yes, it removes this small aspect, that has been used by a small amount of people in the first place.

- Limits the functionality of troop speeds. I.e. close range nobles can't be masked as rams.

So does attack IDs. If you keep an active library of attack IDs. :icon_neutral: Besides, you can figure ways around this. Send close range nuke-nobles, split the train, time nukes between nuke nobles, co-train with players around you. It only adds more strategy to the game.

- Gives defenders a huge advantaging being able to identify every unit speed at any given time.

You can hide everything but nobles as a ram incoming. They won't know if the attack has scouts, cats, a nuke until it lands. Even without auto-tagging, a noble train from a long-distance would be stopped instantly.

- Completely negates any tagging function innogames implemented if its already tagged at launch.

They already have a mass tagger. You just need to be active enough to use it. Doesn't that "negate" any tagging functions?

Having a built in game function that allows a tribe to database a "hidden" attack id list that will give an estimate of the speed based on the tribes dedication/activity allows fakes to be used. Takes 1 second to click a button after launching an attack to database an ID. No different then taking a minute to look at a scout report before launching, or taking time to farm for more resource, taking time to send resources, ect..ect..ect.. Little things people do make the difference between a strong tribe and a weak tribe.

"Little things people do make the difference between an active tribe and an inactive tribe." <- I fixed this for you.

An active tribe will have a better database. Thus it will be able to tag fakes better. Thus them sending fakes at a less active tribe would do far more damage. Which is completely unfair. Why? Because some people do not wish to spend countless hours sitting at home and defending, because they don't want to update the attack IDs every day, every half an hour to make it all work. People have lives and wish to play this game for fun, not a some kind of sport.

Just having everything auto-tagged gives defenders an unfair advantage not keeping the game balanced.

The defender has always had an unfair disadvantage. And that is activity, massive amounts of fakes, almost everytime not enough defense to defend everything.

 

[d4m0]

No one is going to use AM to get notifications purely so they could tag. And the people that do won't have a huge advantage, that system is just too bad for that. And anyways. The topic has been about auto-tagging for quite a while now, not sure why ya'all keep bringing attack IDs back.

Because that's the actual topic for this thread, autotagging has its own... but not in the new updates section, funnily enough.

 

[rich26ca]

this is pathetic there are hundreds of posts here for attack ID and like 10 against and the argument against is well i never used them so oh well...

I haven't seen a single intelligent rebuttal as to why attack id should be removed. the AM and smart phone options are weak at best especially if you play multiple servers. In my experience the vets pay more then the nubs do yes on P2W worlds nubs spend more at first however cause they dont know the intricacies of the game they dont do it wisely and therefore doesnt actually give them much of an advantage. and the vets or new players that research the game do better. as well on p2w worlds 4 months in no ones the market trade features anyways.

The reality is this is forcing co-playing 2-3 players are now need for each account during war times and since you can't really predict and be prepared you simply have to always have co-players on every account. sitting doesn't work on small tribes as if you have incoming to 10-20% of your tribe it takes your entire tribe to sit or a few players playing 24/7 to do it... which isnt practical as it eliminates support and help in sniping cause of the sitter rules. constant management of a sitter program is the only strategy that can be found which will still give an advantage to those that play 24/7 this doesn't balance the game at all just makes it easier to take village. figuring offline times isn't that hard really just look at build times in TWstats and you can see when growth happens and not... can get a pretty good idea of someone times once you know that mass faking using the tab system or opera key binding and a player will log in everyday and not no you can see patterns but if it take you 5hrs to figure all that out it could seriously hurt your chance of moving troops around wisely.

also for those that do the opera faking systems simple send all attacks to look like a train all day every with in your tribe and atleast half of that attacks will be untaggable unless played 24/7

in summary you have to be 24/7 to actually be covered or snipe anything that looks like a train and dodge everything else.. not sure how that makes the game better?