DirtyDishSoap
Guest
You're missing the point of what I quoted earlier.
- Status
DeletedUser
Guest
Evolution is ongoing even today. Remember that it takes thousands of years for even minute changes, but sometimes it happens in leaps and bounds.
clicky
Count that as proof? Mutations are just an evolutionary leap, and not all are good. This one has good and bad parts - near invulnerability to fractures and breaks, but makes the person heavier (can't swim, likely develop heart problems)
I'm not going to get into the religious side of it, because that just gets circular logic and dumbass arguments.
However -
Maybe it took so long because they were checking everything to the letter to try and avoid making mistakes. Ever think of that? Never mind the fact that there are inconsistencies between the gospels about certain events.
Also Jesus? Mithra? Gilgamesh? Several others too I do believe. All same attributes and details.
clicky
Count that as proof? Mutations are just an evolutionary leap, and not all are good. This one has good and bad parts - near invulnerability to fractures and breaks, but makes the person heavier (can't swim, likely develop heart problems)
I'm not going to get into the religious side of it, because that just gets circular logic and dumbass arguments.
However -
King Geldwolf said:
Maybe it took so long because they were checking everything to the letter to try and avoid making mistakes. Ever think of that? Never mind the fact that there are inconsistencies between the gospels about certain events.
Also Jesus? Mithra? Gilgamesh? Several others too I do believe. All same attributes and details.
DeletedUser198
Guest
But also, you take how old it was written yes but they were written in Hebrew and Aramaic (for the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament) and in Greek (for the New Testament). Now that being said it took them years to translate, yes it would of been said within 2 months but this was a language that was forgotten long ago and then trying to translate it would take a very long time
Spushkin
Guest
Now, why would it make any difference as to how many layers of ice there are? If we take into account that Earth is 4 billion years old, than we must also take into account that it didn't just show up. It took some time to cool down, just enough to preserve water in its liquid form - and that's when life starts forming, according to the theory of Evolution, from the simplest to the more complex organisms.
Now, ice is bound to be subject to more changes than rock, with the comings and goings of colder and warmer climate. What if, with the current trend of rising temperatures, we find ourselves without ice on the Poles, will you claim that Earth has just been created? :icon_biggrin:
I prefer to trust science and the scientific method, simply because without it I wouldn't be typing this, or playing TW. And if the scientific method says that Earth is around 4 billion years old, that suits me just fine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale
I will take the Bible as a collection of great stories, and some nice morals, however, the more I learn about the nature of the Universe the more it is likely that there is something that might prove to be God, but it is beyond the grasp of our minds at this stage of our development, and it is especially not the old vengeful and jealous God of the Old Testament.
DeletedUser
Guest
Old Testament was essentially Jewish law. People have been told to essentially ignore the old testament now because it's so full of inconsistencies and ignorant laws and treatment methods.
Never mind cities that didn't exist being leveled by Joshua blowing trumpets :lol:
Anyways, back to the real point - 1500 years is a pretty long time for the Church and various monarchs to have their wicked way with whatever they wanted written, and obviously ommited.
DeletedUser
Guest
Evolution for us hasn't stopped - My daughter is different to me and her children will be different again. If it stopped we would all be clones of each other.
Evolution does not mean each generation will be better - merely subtly different - If those differences make it more likely that that individual will mate and create more offspring than the average then those differences are more likely to be inherent in future generations.
Evolution is slow, stagnant almost during times where most individuals mate - it only speeds up when most don't.
The finches in the galapagos are a prime example - because of storms they regularly get blown off the island where they reside. Sometimes thay make it to other islands and a new colony is established. But the new island will have different food available..... There is an example of one that has nuts as almost the only foodstuff available that are difficult to crack - The finches have evolved with bigger, stronger beaks on this island because all the finches with smaller beaks could not crack open the nuts and therefore died before they mated - Offspring then had a more likely chance to have a bigger beak themselves - those that didn't again died before they mated..... 1,000 generations later and all finches on the island now have big beaks and are distinctly different to their previous island cousins.
This is how evolution works - survival of the fittest is not quite right - it is survival of who can mate most and provide offspring best suited to the environment they find themselves in.
As you can probably gather I do not believe in creationism..... Though I am prepared to accept the possibilty that aliens may have come here at some stage in the past and played with the DNA of what was available.
Blind faith is all very well but I beleive we should strive for the truth and I'm not comfortable with someone saying 2+2=5 simply because they have blind faith that they are correct.
Evolution does not mean each generation will be better - merely subtly different - If those differences make it more likely that that individual will mate and create more offspring than the average then those differences are more likely to be inherent in future generations.
Evolution is slow, stagnant almost during times where most individuals mate - it only speeds up when most don't.
The finches in the galapagos are a prime example - because of storms they regularly get blown off the island where they reside. Sometimes thay make it to other islands and a new colony is established. But the new island will have different food available..... There is an example of one that has nuts as almost the only foodstuff available that are difficult to crack - The finches have evolved with bigger, stronger beaks on this island because all the finches with smaller beaks could not crack open the nuts and therefore died before they mated - Offspring then had a more likely chance to have a bigger beak themselves - those that didn't again died before they mated..... 1,000 generations later and all finches on the island now have big beaks and are distinctly different to their previous island cousins.
This is how evolution works - survival of the fittest is not quite right - it is survival of who can mate most and provide offspring best suited to the environment they find themselves in.
As you can probably gather I do not believe in creationism..... Though I am prepared to accept the possibilty that aliens may have come here at some stage in the past and played with the DNA of what was available.
Blind faith is all very well but I beleive we should strive for the truth and I'm not comfortable with someone saying 2+2=5 simply because they have blind faith that they are correct.
DeletedUser
Guest
Woohoo, BlaKRaveN from W37. Sorry but couldn't resist when I saw the thread. Interesting. A couple of quotes, for your enjoyment and maybe bring a few smiles to your faces
A believer *KNOWS* God exists the same way a schizophrenic
*KNOWS* his cat is plotting to steal his car.
"There is no 'Complete Idiots Guide to Creationism,' but
perhaps one is not needed." -Andrei Codrescu
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against
atheism, it's an argument against foxholes." --James Morrow
" Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he
neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus
Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church
A believer *KNOWS* God exists the same way a schizophrenic
*KNOWS* his cat is plotting to steal his car.
"There is no 'Complete Idiots Guide to Creationism,' but
perhaps one is not needed." -Andrei Codrescu
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against
atheism, it's an argument against foxholes." --James Morrow
" Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he
neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus
Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church
DirtyDishSoap
Guest
Lol!
Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church.
That made my day.
Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church.
That made my day.
DeletedUser
Guest
A good topic indeed. I thought the thread starter has only a pig brain. :lol: Well anyway, let me share my point of view in this matter.
As a born Christian, clearly, i have actuality in giving faith to God. Faith that we started in this world as the theory of Creationism stated, faith in handing opinions against evolution. I do believe woman came from man, i seriously swear not to come up with a crazy idea that we came from those human-like animals, primates. Yes, i don’t believe in those miracles that Jesus did, as i think it is His power that made all those mind-twisted things. I have some time to pray, even though it still requires you to move as an individual to achieve your prayers with the help of Man above. As Jesus died on cross, i saw the light in cleansing our sins, to the point that dying is a required quest to enter the next level, Eternity. Yes, i have faith in God. It somewhat doesn't need to be explained and questioned. As long as you believe, that alone will save you from fiery, blazing, hazardous living in hell. Apparently, my two cents said that we are in the game called Life, where Humans are the characters, Earth is the world and God is the game master.
I can’t totally express myself to this, but meh. I think that would be enough for now. Juz got home from seminar. :icon_smile:
Edit: Darwin alone stated that his theory is flawed and coincidental. Still, evolution is a theory, creationism is a theory. Believe to what you believe. There's still no perfect scientific explanation on how we really are existed. If Bible is only a fiction, then i would like to congratulate the author in writing a very detailed book of mankind that he persuaded almost all the people living in this world in actually believing it.
And uh, maybe God really did made us, he didn't used science.
As a born Christian, clearly, i have actuality in giving faith to God. Faith that we started in this world as the theory of Creationism stated, faith in handing opinions against evolution. I do believe woman came from man, i seriously swear not to come up with a crazy idea that we came from those human-like animals, primates. Yes, i don’t believe in those miracles that Jesus did, as i think it is His power that made all those mind-twisted things. I have some time to pray, even though it still requires you to move as an individual to achieve your prayers with the help of Man above. As Jesus died on cross, i saw the light in cleansing our sins, to the point that dying is a required quest to enter the next level, Eternity. Yes, i have faith in God. It somewhat doesn't need to be explained and questioned. As long as you believe, that alone will save you from fiery, blazing, hazardous living in hell. Apparently, my two cents said that we are in the game called Life, where Humans are the characters, Earth is the world and God is the game master.
I can’t totally express myself to this, but meh. I think that would be enough for now. Juz got home from seminar. :icon_smile:
Edit: Darwin alone stated that his theory is flawed and coincidental. Still, evolution is a theory, creationism is a theory. Believe to what you believe. There's still no perfect scientific explanation on how we really are existed. If Bible is only a fiction, then i would like to congratulate the author in writing a very detailed book of mankind that he persuaded almost all the people living in this world in actually believing it.
And uh, maybe God really did made us, he didn't used science.
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DeletedUser
Guest
and kiwi can fly !
sorry - couldn't resist.
If people want to believe in an afterlife to make their existance here more palatable then I understand where they are coming from - If religion gives you answers fine but personally I'd prefer to use google.
sorry - couldn't resist.
If people want to believe in an afterlife to make their existance here more palatable then I understand where they are coming from - If religion gives you answers fine but personally I'd prefer to use google.
DeletedUser
Guest
Uh huh, I didnt used Google to this matter. As i made it up on my own. And yes, you cant blame me in believing some awkward belief. :icon_razz: I enjoyed living this life that way. Whatever the truth is, i am much thankful that i exist.
DeletedUser
Guest
This brings up an important topic.....
What is more important?
The truth or happiness.
If the answer is happiness then it makes sense for us all to believe we will go on to a better place after we die - Don't take much of a leap to then tell the masses if we don't behave it won't happen.
What is more important?
The truth or happiness.
If the answer is happiness then it makes sense for us all to believe we will go on to a better place after we die - Don't take much of a leap to then tell the masses if we don't behave it won't happen.
DeletedUser
Guest
Uhm, if it is a theory, then it have to be able to be proven, how can creationism be proven? Curious here.
As Irishmetal said, then Evolution is still ongoing, but usually it takes thousands of generations for things to change.
Kiwi:
As a creationist (I take it as you are that, though you don't express it directly), then you believe the Earth was created some thousands years ago, right? How would the extreme diversity and numbers of older fossils then be explained?
Yes Darwin admitted that a lot of pieces missed at the time, many of those have been found since then. Furthermore Darwin was very afraid to publish his work, fearing the religious factions reactions, and that have in many ways contributed to his public words back then. Darwin him self was religious, and married to a very religious woman.
I am not saying that Christianity/religion can't go hand in hand, but they are and will always be of different kind. One is religion/belief or perhaps sociology, and the other (evolution) is science. The problem arises when religion tries to intervene with science, it cannot do that, because of the sole fact that religion is based on belief, not proof. Science is based on proof.
I can't remember where I read it, but America is the country with the 2nd lowest rate of people who believed in Evolution, only beaten by Turkey, with around 40% who believed it was correct. In most other industrialized countries the rate is between 75% and 96%. Denmark and Iceland being the most convinced.
Personally I'm a Dane, and not very religious, I believe Evolution is the right thing, but needs to be updated and corrected constantly. I do though believe that science and religion can be separated and co-exist.
I would like one thing explained: How come Intelligent Design has to be taught in Biology classes? Evolution isn't taught in religion classes.
Sorry for spelling mistakes.
As Irishmetal said, then Evolution is still ongoing, but usually it takes thousands of generations for things to change.
Kiwi:
As a creationist (I take it as you are that, though you don't express it directly), then you believe the Earth was created some thousands years ago, right? How would the extreme diversity and numbers of older fossils then be explained?
Yes Darwin admitted that a lot of pieces missed at the time, many of those have been found since then. Furthermore Darwin was very afraid to publish his work, fearing the religious factions reactions, and that have in many ways contributed to his public words back then. Darwin him self was religious, and married to a very religious woman.
I am not saying that Christianity/religion can't go hand in hand, but they are and will always be of different kind. One is religion/belief or perhaps sociology, and the other (evolution) is science. The problem arises when religion tries to intervene with science, it cannot do that, because of the sole fact that religion is based on belief, not proof. Science is based on proof.
I can't remember where I read it, but America is the country with the 2nd lowest rate of people who believed in Evolution, only beaten by Turkey, with around 40% who believed it was correct. In most other industrialized countries the rate is between 75% and 96%. Denmark and Iceland being the most convinced.
Personally I'm a Dane, and not very religious, I believe Evolution is the right thing, but needs to be updated and corrected constantly. I do though believe that science and religion can be separated and co-exist.
I would like one thing explained: How come Intelligent Design has to be taught in Biology classes? Evolution isn't taught in religion classes.
Sorry for spelling mistakes.
DeletedUser74375
Guest
Dolphins :icon_wink:
mattcurr
Guest
Aimed at Brolly
Studied evolution as it happens
More current evolution, when a virus changes it DNA what do you think it is doing? Not as a dick question, but if you don't believe in point X mutation how do you explain virus' changing what they are.
Mind you you can see these mutations and evolutions more quickly than you can humans. Virus' will go through millions of generations in a week, the fruit fly goes through around 400 generations a year. Humans go through 1 generation ever 30 years....
And even so we are evolving, your statement that we are not evolving is untrue, we are becoming different people than we were 4000 years ago. We are taller, significantly, more lean for the most part, our brains have grown.
And as for your need for this empirical data with the specific tracing of human and chimp DNA, as you mistakenly called it an evolution of apes into humans again, which is not the case we merely share a common link. Do you know the odds of a fissile forming? They are ridiculously low.
What we do have to prove a link though is retro virus', which btw if you feel like questioning the odds of both Chimpanzee's and Humans sharing the same DNA virus' in all humans that exist and all chimps that exist in the same spot in our DNA becomes 1 in trillions. Link
Now the only other thing I will say is notice how I defend with facts, but the argument in favor of god, merely attacks. Basically because there is 0 empirical evidence as to God having existed, and in fact if you look at it there is loads of empirical data to the contrary. So I challenge you to actually attempt to prove some of your own points if you have any? What do you think happened? The bible contradicts itself more than anything else I have ever read.
Studied evolution as it happens
More current evolution, when a virus changes it DNA what do you think it is doing? Not as a dick question, but if you don't believe in point X mutation how do you explain virus' changing what they are.
Mind you you can see these mutations and evolutions more quickly than you can humans. Virus' will go through millions of generations in a week, the fruit fly goes through around 400 generations a year. Humans go through 1 generation ever 30 years....
And even so we are evolving, your statement that we are not evolving is untrue, we are becoming different people than we were 4000 years ago. We are taller, significantly, more lean for the most part, our brains have grown.
And as for your need for this empirical data with the specific tracing of human and chimp DNA, as you mistakenly called it an evolution of apes into humans again, which is not the case we merely share a common link. Do you know the odds of a fissile forming? They are ridiculously low.
What we do have to prove a link though is retro virus', which btw if you feel like questioning the odds of both Chimpanzee's and Humans sharing the same DNA virus' in all humans that exist and all chimps that exist in the same spot in our DNA becomes 1 in trillions. Link
Now the only other thing I will say is notice how I defend with facts, but the argument in favor of god, merely attacks. Basically because there is 0 empirical evidence as to God having existed, and in fact if you look at it there is loads of empirical data to the contrary. So I challenge you to actually attempt to prove some of your own points if you have any? What do you think happened? The bible contradicts itself more than anything else I have ever read.
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DeletedUser
Guest
This is a great debate...
DeletedUser
Guest
I lol'd hard at the second paragraph though someone has answered it already, i'll just add some things.
Earth has tectonics plates and these plates move. Antartica and Greenland are not where they used to be. Ice moves too.
Most likely, the people who drilled the ice where there to see how the living conditions were in the past.
The Great 1One1
Guest
Hmm...this subject is so wide in so many ways that it is near impossible for any of us to say what we really think in detail without having to write a book of 50 volumes.
I will give it a go, nonetheless. Let it be known that I am irreligious (no, this does not mean I am an athiest), therefore I am open to all possibilities and the only thing I denounce is when another religion is put down as "impossible".
Let it also be known that I am not rather that studious when it comes to religion. Everything I say are my own thoughts and I possibly may get some facts wrong about religions. I hope this does not offend anyone.
First of all, who is to say that there even is a clear distinction between God and Darwin? Yes, there would be a distinction between the Christian God and Darwin, but The Christian God is not the same as the God who lives opposite your house. I mean, why is there not the possibility that God's creation wasn't Adam at all? Why do we keep focusing on this? Has no one really thought about the fact that God created a living creature (whatever creature that was) and created it with the intention that in billions of years into the future, this creature would look like that ugly thing in your mirror?
So I think that both Darwin's theory of evolution and belief in God can co-exist. Obviously, there are many interpretations of God, and those people are separated into groups called religion. But where an interpretation of God does not include creating Adam and Eve straight off, I feel that these people can believe Darwin's theorem if they felt it to be true. I am sure that there are people that maybe can't argue the facts given to them about Darwin's theories, but are maybe ignorant to this such is their strong faith that there is a God. But believing something your whole life can be difficult when all of a sudden, someone tells you that what you have believed all your life is wrong. And this isn't like finding out Santa Clause isn't real. This is stone cold life dictating beliefs. But as someone said earlier in this thread, we would now be getting into the debate of the difference between blissful happiness and knowledgeable pain. My blissful happiness was thinking that love is the greatest thing in the world. My knowledgeable pain is now knowing that all women are kunds.
I can take this further and discuss whether God is even real or not, but really, is there any point in debating this? Some will say yes without giving any concrete reasons and some will say no without giving any concrete reasons. This is why I'm irreligious. We just don't know. And if you think you know, you still don't no. You will not find out in your lifetime. You may or may not find out when you die...but I guess that's the whole point of religion. Finding out what we will only know beyond our lifetimes.
I'm gonna give up speculating and just live in blissful happiness that God is a scouser because if the knowledgable pain was that post death is the same as pre-birth (i.e. absolutely nothing. No twists. Just plain nothing), then I would honestly get to depressed to continue bothering with this shitty life. I am open to all possibilities but I am so desperately hoping that, good or bad, there is something waiting for me on the other side.
I will give it a go, nonetheless. Let it be known that I am irreligious (no, this does not mean I am an athiest), therefore I am open to all possibilities and the only thing I denounce is when another religion is put down as "impossible".
Let it also be known that I am not rather that studious when it comes to religion. Everything I say are my own thoughts and I possibly may get some facts wrong about religions. I hope this does not offend anyone.
First of all, who is to say that there even is a clear distinction between God and Darwin? Yes, there would be a distinction between the Christian God and Darwin, but The Christian God is not the same as the God who lives opposite your house. I mean, why is there not the possibility that God's creation wasn't Adam at all? Why do we keep focusing on this? Has no one really thought about the fact that God created a living creature (whatever creature that was) and created it with the intention that in billions of years into the future, this creature would look like that ugly thing in your mirror?
So I think that both Darwin's theory of evolution and belief in God can co-exist. Obviously, there are many interpretations of God, and those people are separated into groups called religion. But where an interpretation of God does not include creating Adam and Eve straight off, I feel that these people can believe Darwin's theorem if they felt it to be true. I am sure that there are people that maybe can't argue the facts given to them about Darwin's theories, but are maybe ignorant to this such is their strong faith that there is a God. But believing something your whole life can be difficult when all of a sudden, someone tells you that what you have believed all your life is wrong. And this isn't like finding out Santa Clause isn't real. This is stone cold life dictating beliefs. But as someone said earlier in this thread, we would now be getting into the debate of the difference between blissful happiness and knowledgeable pain. My blissful happiness was thinking that love is the greatest thing in the world. My knowledgeable pain is now knowing that all women are kunds.
I can take this further and discuss whether God is even real or not, but really, is there any point in debating this? Some will say yes without giving any concrete reasons and some will say no without giving any concrete reasons. This is why I'm irreligious. We just don't know. And if you think you know, you still don't no. You will not find out in your lifetime. You may or may not find out when you die...but I guess that's the whole point of religion. Finding out what we will only know beyond our lifetimes.
I'm gonna give up speculating and just live in blissful happiness that God is a scouser because if the knowledgable pain was that post death is the same as pre-birth (i.e. absolutely nothing. No twists. Just plain nothing), then I would honestly get to depressed to continue bothering with this shitty life. I am open to all possibilities but I am so desperately hoping that, good or bad, there is something waiting for me on the other side.
DeletedUser
Guest
To add into the ice counting thing, there have been several times in our planet's history that ice was not found on the polar caps. Imagine areas that we now consider tundra to have had lush tropical climates. It's happened before, and it will happen again.
Also, as has been mentioned before, but I am going to reiterate, evolution hasn't stopped, nor has it slowed down. It took several hundred thousands of years for humans to evolve into our current state, yet because there has been no real noticable change in the last 100 years you want to say evolution has stopped? Think of this, though, humans, as a species, have an average height that is more than humans 100 years ago, 200 years ago, hell 1,000 years ago. We may not have changed enough to warrant calling ourselves a new species, but we certainly aren't the same humans that first planted seeds and built the ancient cities that were the foundation of modern civilization.
Mattcurr's example of viruses is a perfect example of evolution happening in a timeframe we can really notice. Same with bacterial infections such as staph. They develop defenses against the drugs we develop to kill them. If that isn't evolution, then what is it?
Now, onto the "we were pushed by aliens" comments. I'm not going to delve into that can of worms because, while I do believe that we can't possibly be the only intelligent life form in the universe, I find it highly unlikely that another intelligent species gave us our tools and then dropped all contact with us. While it is possible, it doesn't discredit evolution in any way shape or form. It would be possible for us to teach chimps to use tools and to build things. But, they would not be building with an understanding of the physics involved behind it, a necessary function to be ale to replicate this ability on their own. We could give them the tools, teach them to build a house, set them in the wild, and 100 years later no chimps would be building houses.
Also, as has been mentioned before, but I am going to reiterate, evolution hasn't stopped, nor has it slowed down. It took several hundred thousands of years for humans to evolve into our current state, yet because there has been no real noticable change in the last 100 years you want to say evolution has stopped? Think of this, though, humans, as a species, have an average height that is more than humans 100 years ago, 200 years ago, hell 1,000 years ago. We may not have changed enough to warrant calling ourselves a new species, but we certainly aren't the same humans that first planted seeds and built the ancient cities that were the foundation of modern civilization.
Mattcurr's example of viruses is a perfect example of evolution happening in a timeframe we can really notice. Same with bacterial infections such as staph. They develop defenses against the drugs we develop to kill them. If that isn't evolution, then what is it?
Now, onto the "we were pushed by aliens" comments. I'm not going to delve into that can of worms because, while I do believe that we can't possibly be the only intelligent life form in the universe, I find it highly unlikely that another intelligent species gave us our tools and then dropped all contact with us. While it is possible, it doesn't discredit evolution in any way shape or form. It would be possible for us to teach chimps to use tools and to build things. But, they would not be building with an understanding of the physics involved behind it, a necessary function to be ale to replicate this ability on their own. We could give them the tools, teach them to build a house, set them in the wild, and 100 years later no chimps would be building houses.
mattcurr
Guest
You are describing yourself as an agnostic :icon_razz: Which is what I am I would never say the existence of a god existing is impossible, I chose not to worship any of the fleeting images of gods that do exist today. I certainly would never worship a god who would disallow a truly virtuous man from going to heaven merely because he did not bow down and praise him.
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