Mimelim's Guide: Defense

DeletedUser

Guest
Just one little more question to think about, when considering which would be the best suiting defense: How "mobile" the defense has to be?

If you're actually warring and it'll last some more time, you'll proabably appreciate the benefit of the faster moving defense spear/h.cav in comparison to any defense with the slow sword unit in them.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Cross-Defending:

Rather then pulling out your defense and canceling, which you can only try once till you get the timing right, cross defense means sending defense from another village and using the defense of that village to defend somewhere else. With multiple villages you have a lot of chances to get the timing right.

The other advantage is that you don't micromanage each village but just go to the next village and defend the attacked one. If you use a clever group management you can do that by just clicking on the "next village arrows"

Milemim, try to accept the critics. We're not writing because we want to troll. It does make sense to look at what is send in practise, not just raw numbers. A guide that shows the perfect defense against the perfect offense is useless if noone uses the perfect offense. Therefore, the defense efficiency against a typical offense has to be measured, not the defense efficiency calculated in raw numbers.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Thargoran said:
Just one little more question to think about, when considering which would be the best suiting defense: How "mobile" the defense has to be?

If you're actually warring and it'll last some more time, you'll proabably appreciate the benefit of the faster moving defense spear/h.cav in comparison to any defense with the slow sword unit in them.
Click to expand...

true, forgot to take that into consideration in my post. So you would have to add a fourth:
3333 hcav who build in 18 days and work with a ratio of 0,4:1. Not really efficient against a typical offense, but if you are online a lot and are able to stack multiple hcav-defenses it becomes the best defensive alternative.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
jamm said:
Milemim, try to accept the critics. We're not writing because we want to troll. It does make sense to look at what is send in practise, not just raw numbers. A guide that shows the perfect defense against the perfect offense is useless if noone uses the perfect offense. Therefore, the defense efficiency against a typical offense has to be measured, not the defense efficiency calculated in raw numbers.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense. Do you disagree that you have 20% less general defense than before and 26% less cav defense when you use the spears/hcav defense? If you are a multi-village player, what is important is the total raw defensive strength that you have, not the effective power of one village against a single attacking army. Think about it... If you are going to stack a village, which number will be important to you, the number of villages you can stack (the raw numbers) or the fact that in a different situation (if you weren't stacking and just left the troops in a village and got attacked) that you would lose more troops. It just doesn't make any sense to consider "how 10k/10k defense vs 8k/2k defends" rather than their raw strength.

The reason why I left out tech levels in both articles was because I thought that that was TOO obvious to bother with. Who doesn't attack with lvl 3 everything and defend with lvl 3 everything? I mean even compared to the basics that I covered in the guides, that is trivial...
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Mimelim said:
The reason why I left out tech levels in both articles was because I thought that that was TOO obvious to bother with. Who doesn't attack with lvl 3 everything and defend with lvl 3 everything? I mean even compared to the basics that I covered in the guides, that is trivial...
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Absolutely true. But it's really one thing, that I experienced in several worlds, against several big scorers now. Not only here in TW but also in Germany.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Now that you mention it, none of the last few people that I've taken on have had 'correct' tech levels. Its been rather annoying to have to restructure the smithy while re-building =/.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Mimelim said:
Are you trying to troll or are you being serious... Practical? How is it more practical to consider a situational value as opposed to the raw values? That doesn't make any sense...
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Sorry, not trying to troll.

Maybe the answer to my questions is that, when stacking, the raw defensive value and the practical value approach each other. I did plug a doubly defended village into the simulator for both 8k:2k and 10k:10K. Again with the 6k:3K:250 attack force, the losses incurred by the 16K:4K village were significantly more than 20% more than the losses for the 20k:20K village.

I don't know why this is, probably has to do with variability of defensive values based upon type of attacking unit.

Here is an oddity that I came across while playing:

attacking force: 6k/3k/250
defending force: 20k/20k
farm space lost (defender): 7304
resources lost (defender): 803k

attacking force: 6k/3k/250
defending force: 20k/20k + 2k HC
farm space lost (defender): 7362
resources lost (defender): 892k

The extra defensive value added by the 2k HC translates into more losses for the defender, both in terms of farm space and resources. (The attacker, of course, lost the same value in both attacks.)

Add enough HC to the mix and the losses will decrease.

If instead, you consider the 16k/4k defenders, adding any number of swords will decrease the defender's losses.

It seems to me that losses are not always inversely related to defensive power (as one might intuit). If the relationship does not hold in "typical" defending situations, then comparing relative defensive strengths would not carry much practical usefulness.

Of course, it may not be practical to determine what is "typical", leaving us back at the imperfect comparison of raw defensive values.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
foxgloves, you're not grasping one simple concept. I'll give you a more extreme example to show you what I mean.

If I send an attack of 5k axe 1k l cav 150 rams against 3k/3k spear sword (I know it's not a full O or full D, just keep reading and you'll see why I didn't) I'll have whatever losses. (I'm too lazy to calculate) Now add in an extra 5k spears in the attacking army. The attacker will lose a lot more population and resources simply by adding more attacking forces. This is because the added units are much less efficent that the original units.

Moving to your example:

You added HC to a spear/sword defense. Since losses are distributed evenly, what you are doing is preventing the loss of some of the spears/swords by adding losses in HC. Since HC cost more population and resources than spears/swords you'll lose more total population and resources.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
servy said:
You added HC to a spear/sword defense. Since losses are distributed evenly, what you are doing is preventing the loss of some of the spears/swords by adding losses in HC. Since HC cost more population and resources than spears/swords you'll lose more total population and resources.
Click to expand...

And just to add to that:
For bigger players who value time more then resources this is better since rebuilding from the "heavier" losses will be shorter.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
servy said:
If I send an attack of 5k axe 1k l cav 150 rams against 3k/3k spear sword (I know it's not a full O or full D, just keep reading and you'll see why I didn't) I'll have whatever losses. (I'm too lazy to calculate) Now add in an extra 5k spears in the attacking army. The attacker will lose a lot more population and resources simply by adding more attacking forces. This is because the added units are much less efficient that the original units.
Click to expand...
So, you're saying that not all attack strength is created equal? It's not the raw attack strength, but the efficiency of that strength that matters. So, adding X% to the raw attack strength does not mean that you add X% to the effectiveness of the attack.

I think we're saying the same thing.
 

Dannytranny

Guest
A kind of tactic is to let them take the village but you just take it right back. Its a way to use your attack in defending, empty your village and f they don't time their support well you can land YOUR attack to take the village a minute or so after they took it.

Someone probably said it but to be quite honest i don't have the time to read through all this, I for one have never used this tactic as I have never been under serious attack. Nice guide though Mimelim.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Mimelim said:
Village Structures:
10k/10k Spears/Swords Split

8k/2k Spears/hcav Optimized Defense
Click to expand...

How do U adapt this to archers world?...
8KSpear/8KSword/4KArcher or 9/9/1

and 7K/1.5K/500MA?

Or it's better without archers...?
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
To be honest I have no idea. I've never played on a non-old version world.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Dannytranny said:
A kind of tactic is to let them take the village but you just take it right back. Its a way to use your attack in defending, empty your village and f they don't time their support well you can land YOUR attack to take the village a minute or so after they took it.

Someone probably said it but to be quite honest i don't have the time to read through all this, I for one have never used this tactic as I have never been under serious attack. Nice guide though Mimelim.
Click to expand...

I have used this tactic myself several times, and can attest to its effectivness. Many people are good at timing nobles to arrive just after clearings, but many don't bother to be so careful with the support to follow.

Pre-nobling the village also prevents them from putting a lot of defense in the final wave, as it may not take the village.
 

DeletedUser30830

Guest
Alright, major bump!
I completely read both of your guides, but then it came to my mind I was playing on a V4.0 world wich means we also have Archers and Mounted Archers.
Can anyone, either Mimelim himself or another experienced Tribal Wars player give his opinion on what to do with the Archers?

Thanks in advance,

AeroFury
 

DeletedUser30830

Guest
Thanks alot Matt.
Apparantly, archers are really being underestimated.
 

Matt76827

Guest
Well like each unit they have their strengths and their weaknesses.
 

DeletedUser65940

Guest
In my experience of TW, Archers are one of the most valuable defensive units.

My defensive villages will eventually consist of 3000 spears, 8000 Swords and 8000 archers + 500 scouts.

Using this set up:

General defense = 845000
Cavalry Defense = 575000
Archer Defense = 420000

using your set up of 10000 spears and 10000 swords means:

General defense = 650000
Cavalry Defense = 600000
Archer Defense = 250000

my set up has beaten your in 2 fields, general and archer. I have been tempted to change it to add more Cavalry defense, but in my experience, people tend to have more axes than LC.

All this depends on the world you are in.

eg, if you are in an archer-less world, these figures will vary.
 
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