Religious Debate

[DeletedUser]

However, if you remember that God is a jealous God, who demands respect, then you find that what has happened in the world fits perfectly.

That goes against all Christian beliefs and the Bible you all so blindly believe. Even if God is real, and jealous and demanding of respect as you say, why would anyone worship him? So they don't go to hell? In that way people are doing it out of fear of their own suffering and not the love of God.

 

[DeletedUser]

Some interesting quotes on the subject from smart people.

If a child runs into the room saying "Mummy, mummy! I love Jesus and He loves me! We're all going to Heaven when we die and God is looking over us!", people will smile and praise the child. Nobody would say "Don't be silly. You can't possibly say that because you don't fully understand everything about the religion. How can you know that for sure, when you've not read the Bible in the original Hebrew?!?". But if a child (or teenager, or adult) says "I've had a good think about it, and have come to the conclusion that Jesus is a myth and nothing in Christianity makes much sense. I declare myself to be a freethinking secular humanist.", then they are quite likely to receive the latter response. You could have all the theological training of a hedgehog and still get wild applause if you stand up and say you're a Christian, but it seems that atheists are required to demonstrate more intelligence and Biblical expertise than all the clergymen and theologians that have ever lived before they are allowed to publicly express their doubts. -Adrian Barnett

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. -Buddha

One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. -Arthur C. Clarke

The most unbelievable social convention of the age in which we live is the one to the effect that all religious opinions should be respected, no matter how ignorant. -William Edelen

Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith. -Thomas Jefferson

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion. -Carl Sagan

The best minds will tell you that when a man has begotten a child he is morally bound to tenderly care for it, protect it from hurt, shield it from disease, clothe it, feed it, bear with its waywardness, lay no hand upon it save in kindness and for its own good, and never in any case inflict upon it a wanton cruelty. God's treatment of his earthly children, every day and every night, is the exact opposite of all that, yet those best minds warmly justify these crimes, condone them, excuse them, and indignantly refuse to regard them as crimes at all, when he commits them. -Mark Twain

 

[DeletedUser]

Went right over your head did it? Basically evidence or not sense or not whatever created us can be easily considered "god".

That was easily solved without the hours of research and typing right?

You schmuck,this is a discussion on Religion, you can’t see the title? Its bolded and everything. If you’re going to quote my post then address my points, otherwise don’t post.

FIRECRACKER =/= BIG BANG//

Firecracker=Explosion. Explosion=Big Bang. Big Bang=Firecracker.

The Big Bang was not just an explosion, the Big Bang was far more than an explosion, it was the birth of our universe. So comparing it to a stupid little firecracker is completely wrong.

History says that Jesus DIED and then ROSE from the dead. Science says that's impossible. The gap here can only be bridged because of a divine intervention.

No, a book written by people who wanted answers and had little knowledge said Jesus died and rose from the dead. I find it strange why people still take this book seriously, it was written by people with far less knowledge than our 6 year olds and yet people still follow and teach its words, probably out of fear of eternal hellfire. And yes resurrection is impossible as the brain quickly decomposes after death, however that does not prove Jesus resurrected from the dead by some divine intervention, why? Because you have have no evidence that Jesus existed, you have nothing, that's why its called faith.

So what's more likely a miracle happening ( In your favour and one you approve of ), or the human brain being under a very large illusion? Keep in mind that a miracle isn't part of the natural order its a suspension.

From a Christian perspective, God made a world that was very good and without flaws. It was perfect.
Man went and messed that up when he sinned.
It was God allowing man to have free will, so that it was a being that he could love and that could truly love him back that was the biggest flaw. By giving us free will, he gave us the key to destroy paradise. And we did so. .

GOD - "Here my children take this free will, I’m giving it to you, you MUST take this free will so I can love you all."
Person - "But sir...ummm I don’t think that’s free wi.."
GOD - "WHAT!? How dare you talk back to me, I’m giving you free will and this is what you do!?"

You seem to have a very clouded view as to what "free will" is. God giving you free will is NOT free will. If god can give you free will then I assume he can take it back just as easily, this is not free will.

 

[DeletedUser91764]

The Big Bang was not just an explosion, the Big Bang was far more than an explosion, it was the birth of our universe. So comparing it to a stupid little firecracker is completely wrong.

So if practically nothing can blow up and make a universe why don't my fireworks make universes? They are much larger than what the "big bang" came from. And it had the power to create us so I think it can be considered a god and uhmmm that means you believe in a god.... which means you have a religion...

 

[DeletedUser]

Because despite being small it contained a near-infinite amount of energy.

 

[DeletedUser]

So if practically nothing can blow up and make a universe why don't my fireworks make universes? They are much larger than what the "big bang" came from. And it had the power to create us so I think it can be considered a god and uhmmm that means you believe in a god.... which means you have a religion...

Misinformed if nothing else, why are you assuming there was nothing before the Big Bang? Have you even done any research into the various different theory's trying to explain what was before the Big Bang? or what caused it? I assume you haven't or I don't think you would be making these claims unless you're extremely closed minded (which you probably are). The likely hood of something being there before the Big Bang is rather high, whether it's strings, Membranes, parallel universes or something different all together. I won't bother explaining the theory as it would require a lot of detail, but in short, there are many membranes these membranes might collide with each other, thus causing a Big Bang creating a new universe. The Big Bang/Universe is merely an aftermath of a much bigger event. Just look up M-Theory if you haven't already (I doubt you have).

And as for your other stupid point, Membranes and Parallel universes are eternal, so no need for a God or Creator in any way, shape or form.

 

[DeletedUser]

The big bang is a theory plz remember this, evolution is also a theory, itelligiant design I dont recall hearing it ever as a theory but lets just call it one. You cant prove that any of this is real, well you can prove most of evolution but you cant prove Macro Evolution:
major evolutionary transition from one type of organism to another occurring at the level of the species and higher taxa. <taken from dictionary.com so basically its a monkey into a human has not been proven. I personally believe in intelligant design and not macro or big bang

 

[DeletedUser]

Bosbeer, I am sorry but I am not gonna read because I am 18 and really bad at understanding science stuff, so could you just answer some questions for me?


1. Where did whatever it is that created the big bang comes from? aka what created what created the big bang?

 

[DeletedUser]

a monkey into a human has not been proven

Common ancestor, and the evidence weighs heavily towards it.

1. Where did whatever it is that created the big bang comes from? aka what created what created the big bang?

Nobody knows.

But if you want to got that line of questioning, what created God? Some things just happen, and at this point in time cannot be explained. Science tries to remedy this, but it is a work in progress.

 

[DeletedUser]

In my honest opinion, god does not exist, as science has proven so much and has so much evidence in its favour, but then again some of the religion stuff makes sense, like the ten commandments.. etc.

But like I said before there is to much evidence showing that science is right

 

[DeletedUser]

Common ancestor, and the evidence weighs heavily towards it.




Nobody knows.

But if you want to got that line of questioning, what created God? Some things just happen, and at this point in time cannot be explained. Science tries to remedy this, but it is a work in progress.

Evidence is heavy towards it but that doesnt prove it.


And I would have to say an answer a non christian will not agree with, God is out of time, he isnt bound by it so nothing created him and nothing can kill him. And I just wanted to know what science says about the where the stuff came from

 

[DeletedUser]

Evidence is heavy towards it but that doesnt prove it.

Well, a lot of things cannot be conclusively proved without imperical, seen with your own eyes evidence (and even that is suspect), but the timeline over which evolution works is so vast that that is impossible.The evidence is there, you can take it or leave it, but that's your choice and while you can say it isn't fully conclusive, you can't say that it counts for nothing. After that, it is up to you.

And I would have to say an answer a non christian will not agree with, God is out of time, he isnt bound by it so nothing created him and nothing can kill him. And I just wanted to know what science says about the where the stuff came from

This is the "oh it's god, it can do anything, nothing applies to it" argument. Which is a rather childish one if you think about it. Q - why does this happen A - Oh, it just can. Statement - Science says different through observations - Reply - It's god, it doesn't matter.

As to what the big bang came from? No one knows. Yet. However, some theories are - two universes gravitated towards each other and basically got smushed up - one universe is eternal and goes through super expansion and then collapse phases over ages - essentially a Phoenix rebirth.

You could argue that the universe is god - impartial/eternal/uncaring etc etc.

I don't know what to believe personally, but that would fit the bill fair enough. I do not however believe in the religious interpretation of a god that orders people to do things. It's a contradiction in terms.

"Oh I'm god, I'll create a huge, but tiny to me, "ant" farm, and I'm capable of directing every action, and seeing every single thing that can/will/doesn't happen in every single dimension, but free will is still prevalent, even though it's forced free will and I still know what's going to happen."

It's... farfetched to put it lightly.

 

[DeletedUser]

there is evidence against evolution, for instance the age of the earth, many different types of research has been done on the earth, and some reasech states the earth is 10 billion years old, other reaserch says no long than 10k years old, 10k years would disprove evolution right there, so I am gonna go with the 10k years because the 10 billion year reaserch type is know for having flaws.

And I stated before a non christian would not like my answer about God.

And in the bible it states god's ways are above our understanding<---and I know ur not gonna like hearing that....

And not every christian believes in free will

 

[DeletedUser]

there is evidence against evolution, for instance the age of the earth, many different types of research has been done on the earth, and some reasech states the earth is 10 billion years old, other reaserch says no long than 10k years old, 10k years would disprove evolution right there, so I am gonna go with the 10k years because the 10 billion year reaserch type is know for having flaws.

Young earth creationism is one of the most ludicrous theories in the world. It's been disproven in so many ways that it's truly laughable.

However, the typical argument when evidence is brought against them is that the earth is made up of rocks that age, because god made the particles that age. Again, the evidence is there, decide for yourself. Until the next paradigm shift, 4.54 billion years is accepted for many many reasons.

You know they tried to use the age of trees as proof for the flood? There were no tree's older than 5K years old on record. So this was seized upon. Then scientists found a 12K year network a few years later. I repeat - give science time. It can't get everything at once, and might never get everything, but it progresses in leaps and bounds all the time.

And I stated before a non christian would not like my answer about God.

And in the bible it states god's ways are above our understanding<---and I know ur not gonna like hearing that....

And not every christian believes in free will

And I said that would be the typical answer. Ok, you're using the bible (brilliant source text that it is) as a reference. Did the bible not say god is jealous, wrathful, loving, all-powerful? Eye for an eye, love thy neighbour? All contradictions in terms.

god's ways are above our understanding? Was it not the gift of understanding that distanced us from god? With something he made himself and told some creatures (that were as children) not to do something, without a reason... We didn't have a knowledge of good and evil at that point, so how could they know that eating fruit was a bad act. "Oh, but it's another metaphor". A flawed one.

If christians don't believe in free will, then surely everything is going according to god's grand design and all the evil in the world is pre-ordained. Come on, you need a better argument than that. If there is no free will,then every sin is something done by god, and therefore it surely can't be a sin...

 

[DeletedUser]

god is jealous, wrathful, loving, all-powerful? Eye for an eye, love thy neighbour?

Yes god is a jealous god
-If someone owed you money and they gave money to someone else who didnt deserve it wouldnt you be jealous?
Yes he is wraithful
-When someone disobeys you wouldnot you hand out punishment?
---I am not saying God is like a person, I am trying to make you understand
Yes he is loving
-He sent his own son to die on a cross so that those who would seek redemtion would be redeemed
All powerful, well I mean he is God course he is all powerful
Eye for an Eye, when someone wrongs someone they need to fix what they did, God doesnt talk to you right then and there and say what you need to do so he set down basic rules for us to follow
love thy neighbour, is there anything wrong with this? If god loves everyone should we not show love like god?

 

[DeletedUser]

I dont really know how to explain the whole predestined/free will thing its kind of blurred in my oppoin, God would not be god if we all could understand him, And Adam and Eve did not relize that there were sinning, unlike now we have morals, back then they didnt until they ate the fruit

 

[DeletedUser93812]

If you look closley at what their saying, science every time proves God exists. Also the archeologists have went and found so many places and civilizations that the Bible talks about. When the scientists see the intracate details about space and how theplanets rotate around the sun and the moons rotate around the planets. If any of this was off just two degrees or any of the planet's in our solar system were not the way they are life could not be on Earth. There is way to many intracate details for this to happen by chance. It is said that Darwin himself admited he was wrong on his death bed.
Now, alot of people try and say there is no God, but with all the intracate detail on the Earth, above the Earth and bellow the Earth, you would only be fooling yourself. Now the question is. What does he exspect of me and how do I get to know him? Yes, he is God. God meaning superior being. We are the created. He is the creator. All knowlege we have, he has had before we existed. He gave us all the knowlege that is helpful to mankind today, so he is way smarter than we are.
yes, free will is a tough subject. Many dont understand it.. Yes, we all have free will to decide what we want. That is why the world is the way it is today. God gave the 10 commandments that we should follow and if we do, then we would have peace with each other and peace with God.
God is a spirit and when he created mankind he put his spirit in their hearts and put them in a garden called Eden. Well, he put two trees in the middle of the garden. One was the tree of life and the other the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and told them to only eat of the tree of life. Well, they disobedied and ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and were kicked out of the garden of Eden and no longer lived forever looseing the Spirit of God from their hearts and passing down that sin of disobedience to all mankind for generations to come.
Now the requirments of God to regain that relationship with him is to recieve him in your heart through prayer and ask him to forgive you of all the times you sined against him by breaking the ten comandments.
Now the punishment for Adam and Eve's sin of disobedience against God was death. That is why mankind does not live forever now but only about 100 years or so on the Earth, but your soul and spirit will live forever, in one of two places. Now God did not want to destroy his creation, so he had mercy and waited for a time in his plan to come to Earth himself and die as a man, as a human to pay for our sin so we would not be destroyed. Now we have a choice. Those who accept what he did and believe it and accept him in their hearts to be born again spiritually to get back what Adam and Eve lost, will be saved from the coming judgement of death to mankind because of sin.
God in the Bible has many names. His name is not like ours. (Tom, Joe ect.) His name is according to what he does. His attributes. For instance Johoveh Shamah= meaning for ever present. The Bible say's he will never leave you nor forsake you. Jahovah Rafa= He is your provider. The Bible says that he will provide all your needs according to his Riches and Glory, in Christ Jesus.
Now God would pick people and talk to them and give them messages for the people to help gide them in the obedience of the 10 commandments as well as let them know how God had decided to bless them. They called those messangers Prophets Well, a Prophet told Mary to name her baby Jesus (Greek language) Jashua (Hebrew). The greek is a translation of the Hebrew meaning. Jesus means=Saviour That is the job that God came ot do. Save us from our sins and the punishment to come.
The name Jesus is the bridge to God over a deep and wide revene. That is why Christians pray to God in Jesus name and if you are not and want to accept God in your heart to be saved you should pray(Talk) to God and at the end of your conversation say in Jesus name because it reminds him of the work he did on the cross on Earth for our sins 2,000 years ago and it is your authority to come before the King of the Universe and talk to him. (Get an audiance with the King) He dont need to be reminded of his work but like it was said it is your authority to come before the king, in audiance.

 

[DeletedUser]

god is jealous, wrathful, loving, all-powerful? Eye for an eye, love thy neighbour?

Yes god is a jealous god
-If someone owed you money and they gave money to someone else who didnt deserve it wouldnt you be jealous?
Yes he is wraithful
-When someone disobeys you wouldnot you hand out punishment?
---I am not saying God is like a person, I am trying to make you understand
Yes he is loving
-He sent his own son to die on a cross so that those who would seek redemtion would be redeemed
All powerful, well I mean he is God course he is all powerful
Eye for an Eye, when someone wrongs someone they need to fix what they did, God doesnt talk to you right then and there and say what you need to do so he set down basic rules for us to follow
love thy neighbour, is there anything wrong with this? If god loves everyone should we not show love like god?

This is my point. The bible cannot be refuted to a believer, because it covers everything with dualities.

Take for example, Love thy neighbour. Did god not tell the isrealites to move into other countries, slaughter the entire populaces of cities, and take their land for their own? Is this loving thy neighbour put in practice?

DennisJP - a lot of what you said is just your own belief, but here's one thing to think about. The 10 commandments are not some divine proclamation, but merely functioning rules for society. The people who wrote the bible were writing a book of Law - why not give the fundamental laws for all civilizations a divine origin? Gives it more credence in the eyes of the masses.

Also, without knowledge of good and evil, how could adam and Eve even know they were disobeying, or attack any kind of importance to what they were told. After they ate the fruit, then they knew they did wrong, and saw they were naked - this was also wrong. But was it wrong before they ate the fruit? Surely yes, but because they were ignorant of it, it wasn't wrong... This is a big problem.

How can they be held accountable for their actions if they were "lesser" beings before they commited the sin. They didn't know right from wrong, only knew they were told not to do something. In the eyes of a child, this draws attention to the thing, and hastens them to try - psychology 101. It wasn't their fault, and indeed was surely foreordained if you believe in the lack of free will. If not, then they had free will to do other things, but with their minds focused on it (albeit for the opposite reason) how could they stand a chance?

Also the archeologists have went and found so many places and civilizations that the Bible talks about.

They found some, from the new testament. The old testament speaks of cities with huge walls that at the time were no more than possible tent towns. Many things like that were discovered as falsities.

When the scientists see the intracate details about space and how theplanets rotate around the sun and the moons rotate around the planets. If any of this was off just two degrees or any of the planet's in our solar system were not the way they are life could not be on Earth. There is way to many intracate details for this to happen by chance. It is said that Darwin himself admited he was wrong on his death bed.

Darwin at that point was an old christian man, terrified of death. He went ahead with the science of what he saw (and stole from other scientists too) and saw himself as right - up until he felt he would be judged wrongly. Hardly a stirring denial of what he advocated before.

Chance it was. Mars is farther along in, but could have supported life at one point. At some point in the future earth will not support life either. Old argument, that complexity in nature had to be designed - this is a non negotiable point of belief - you either believe it is random, or you don't.

 

[DeletedUser93812]

To answer you on predestination and morales. There were morales at the time of Adam and Eve. In the Bible it says that God put those morales in you when you were created. Its called a conscence. If you do something or think about doing something that goes against the 10 commandments you will start getting a feeling of should I do that. You will start questioning what your doing and rationalize, either for or against. Adam and Eve had this as well as the Spirit of God in their hearts which amplifies your conscence.
Predestination, there is not any. Noone is predestined for anything. What happens is, is that God will show hiself, to everyone in the world at one time or another according to his timing, because he has to prepare us to be able ot make a choice, when we are shown his truth.(Jesus(God) on the cross and forgivness of sin) Then it is up to us to decide yes or no. Then those who choose yes he comes into their hearts and their spirit is born again and then he reveils himself more and more to them and blesses and shows them their purpose of why they are on the Earth. At anytime the person can leave God, but why would they, if they understand the truth.

 

[DeletedUser]

To answer you on predestination and morales. There were morales at the time of Adam and Eve. In the Bible it says that God put those morales in you when you were created. Its called a conscence

The way it is written, man is created merely as the caretaker of the garden of eden. God tells them they will die if they eat the fruit of the tree - scaring them like the child minded creatures they were. But once they ate of the tree, God threw them out before they ate from the tree of life and became eternal too.

It's a poor metaphor. Saying that knowledge is within reach, instead of hiding it away - which he did after, too little, too late.

Before they ate of the tree, they had no consciousness of self, merely awe of their creator - as it should be, in a way. But once they became self aware, it all changed. Not necessarily for the worse straight away, but because God willed it so - he lashed out instead of explaining. What kind of parent does this to their child?