Religious Debate

[DeletedUser]

And natural selection to a small extent has been proven. There is no evidence that macro-evolution is possible based on the system of mutations that is claimed to drive it.
Mutations don't even cover the addition of brand new chromosomes. Maybe new genes... but not new chromosomes.

A Chromosome is a single piece of coiled DNA containing many genes. Maybe you're confused? And macro evolution (speciation) has been actively observed (I spoke wrongly myself in an earlier post)

If you are stating that we have free will in choosing between heaven or hell; I suppose you are right, we don't have that.
However, its like saying that I have a choice over whether my computer will type a G when I hit G, then I don't have that choice. The computer could glitch. Most computers won't glitch, and if you hit a G, the computer will type a G and if you don't, the computer won't. In the same way, if you accept Christ, then Jesus will vouch for you on judgment day and you will receive salvation. If you deny Christ, then he won't vouch for you and you will not receive salvation.

What about religious nutjobs/deluded people who believe fully that they are doing Christ's work when they murder people? Going by that logic, they'll go to heaven because they trust in Christ.

Never mind every other religion that doesn't believe in a trinity/savior/one god over all.

 

[DeletedUser]

One occurring problem when debating on behalf of Religion, you always have to repeat yourself.

Religious people love repeating themselves, spread the Jesus love and all that good stuff.

If you are stating that we have free will in choosing between heaven or hell; I suppose you are right, we don't have that.

In the same way, if you accept Christ, then Jesus will vouch for you on judgment day and you will receive salvation. If you deny Christ, then he won't vouch for you and you will not receive salvation.

• One way or another this God is deciding were you go, Heaven or hell. Strike 1.
• You have two choices, accept him or deny him. Strike 2.

Both of these were stated by you, I don't need to do anything else other than quote what you said. It should be obvious that this is not free will, if you still don't understand then you are obviously confused or closed minded.

I don't see the disconnect as to why I see this choice as free will and you don't. A choice is a choice is a choice is a choice. It doesn't matter what the options are.

GOD: Welcome to the God quiz show, Ill give you two options, which one do you want, Accept me or Deny me?
Person:Well...Ummm...Gosh what about if I want to do...
God: NO! Two options, that's all, NOW CHOOOOOSE!!!
Person: Ummm...Ummm....Ummm...
GOD: Ah sorry, too late you obviously don't love me.
Person: So what happens now?
GOD: What happens now you say? Well your going to hell! Goodbye.
Person: YOU SAID I HAD FREE WILL!!??
GOD: Oh you don't understand? I AM FREE WILL, CYA :lol:

This God of yours is giving you two choices, and two choices ONLY. Accept him or Deny him, if this is your idea of free will then you can keep it to yourself.


\\This is probably going to be my last post on free will, because I truly hate repeating myself.

 

[DeletedUser]

\\This is probably going to be my last post on free will, because I truly hate repeating myself.

That will be your last post on free will, because that is the way it was destined to be. :icon_wink:

 

[DeletedUser]

@Fladimier: The Bible is not just a fairy tale written by Jesus lovers to make Jesus look cool. It is a legitimate reference. For years, people have brought up different beefs with the references of the Bible. Nazareth for instance, used to be believed to be made up by the authors of the Bible. Turns out, that since then they have found a graveyard in the area described to be Nazareth by the Bible. Based on the size of the graveyard, it would have been for a town of insignificance and incredibly small. It was not even worth mentioning in history books. There are many of these issues throughout the Bible, but the Bible's historical accuracy for HISTORICAL events is perfect.

I'm not saying the Bible is wrong in everything. It clearly has references to historical places, events, and persons that are believed to be, or prove to be true. Still, you can't call it a legitimate reference. Many times people talk about what God has told them. This is not a reference to the opinion that God exists. Seeing as God's existence is not backed up by any sense of reason, logic, or proof, we can consider those references false. So even if a book has some correct references that can be proven as true, the fact that it also includes a rather large amount of unproven references we cannot consider it a legitimate reference as a whole. It leaves it open for exaggerations and storytelling. If I wrote a book based on mostly completely false information about elephants flying, trees walking, and people shooting laser beams out of their eyes; but included the exact date and time of who won the Superbowl correctly; doesn't make it a legitimate reference.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not saying the Bible is wrong in everything. It clearly has references to historical places, events, and persons that are believed to be, or prove to be true. Still, you can't call it a legitimate reference. Many times people talk about what God has told them. This is not a reference to the opinion that God exists. Seeing as God's existence is not backed up by any sense of reason, logic, or proof, we can consider those references false. So even if a book has some correct references that can be proven as true, the fact that it also includes a rather large amount of unproven references we cannot consider it a legitimate reference as a whole. It leaves it open for exaggerations and storytelling. If I wrote a book based on mostly completely false information about elephants flying, trees walking, and people shooting laser beams out of their eyes; but included the exact date and time of who won the Superbowl correctly; doesn't make it a legitimate reference.

The book is 100% historically accurate. It is also unilaterally written between 10-30 years after Jesus ministry (At least the NT was).

As for its religious statements... bits that can neither be proved or unproved, then you are correct. Fortunately. There is one miracle (At least) that has been historically proven and scientifically denied. That; is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[DeletedUser]

The book is 100% historically accurate. It is also unilaterally written between 10-30 years after Jesus ministry (At least the NT was).

Erm, most scholars place it up to at least 60/70 years, most over 100. Also, not 100%, not even close. Ever heard the phrase biblical minimalism and maximalism? Even biblical schlolars who want it to be true can't find proof for a lot of it.

As for its religious statements... bits that can neither be proved or unproved, then you are correct. Fortunately. There is one miracle (At least) that has been historically proven and scientifically denied. That; is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Even such a high profile event hasn't been proven (next to no non christian sourcing, and what isn't christian is very vague and talks about a man commiting apostasy), and the resurrection story is a pretty common one for other faiths too.

As well as that, while scientifically denied, it's denied that he rose from the dead, because that is scientifically impossible. Some propose a deep coma, or something in that vein.

 

[DeletedUser]

If god is so caring and generous and forgiving, then why is there so much suffering in the world?
If its because of the lack of belief that these people show, or a trial meant to test us then why do so many useless pricks who dont believe get such an easy ride in life?

I would have to respond with there is also a lot of happiness as well. Could say it balances out a bit. I believe that god is just something to make people feel calmer that it is inevitable we are all going to die. Believing in god helps you accept it. A lot of people dont find "god" until they are older, go through a tough time, get a horrible sickness. Or at least thats what Ive seen. I dont hate people for believing in god. But I do hate people that use god as a reason to do horrible things such as you stated with Suicide bombers and the crusades. Its all stupid, especially why either of those groups did what they did and still do what they do. Would elaborate more but Im tired

 

[DeletedUser]

Erm, most scholars place it up to at least 60/70 years, most over 100. Also, not 100%, not even close. Ever heard the phrase biblical minimalism and maximalism? Even biblical schlolars who want it to be true can't find proof for a lot of it.

Wasn't more like around 400 years? Wasn't the Old Testament and the New Testament written during different times?

It is also technically a compilation of 66 books written by over 40 authors.

Pearbear, You can't historically prove that anyone rose from the dead, whether they really did or not. All that is based on is two woman finding his tomb empty and then showing more people his empty tomb and saying he must have rose from the dead.

 

[DeletedUser]

Wasn't more like around 400 years? Wasn't the Old Testament and the New Testament written during different times?

It is also technically a compilation of 66 books written by over 40 authors.

Yes, yes and yes. I was referrring to the New Testament alone.

 

[A humble player]

That will be your last post on free will, because that is the way it was destined to be. :icon_wink:

Does free will even matter?
If god doesn't exist, then we have free will.
If he does, then we may or may not have free will, and no one will notice the difference because no one debating here is god.
Free vs. destined is only noticeable on the omniscient/omnipotent scale, because you or I will never know whether or not we have free will or not.

Note that the fact that I am writing this here, seemingly disproving a god (by saying one doesn't exist) does not actually disprove the existence of a god, because if I at least were a god, I wouldn't care if one person didn't believe in me, and spoke out against me, not even millions of people. I knew I existed, and well that would be good enough for me.


My view on god is that 'he' is a force. The force that accounts for chance in our universe, the reason molecules came together this way and not that way this way resulting in life, that way not. Does it matter whether or not 'he' did it on purpose? To me, not really, to other people, probably. And I don't care about the other people, because religion is an internal thing :|

 

[DeletedUser]

And I don't care about the other people, because religion is an internal thing :|

Apart from this, I agree with all the rest :icon_wink: - Even agree with it to a point.

It's when religion is external and such organisations try stopping medical advances and things of that sort...

Also, just love a good debate. I could argue either side here just as well (although it would involve ignoring some things I know and hoping that others don't fully understand what they're arguing lol)

 

[DeletedUser]

With such a controversial topic I am pleased to see a civil debate. Kudos to those brave enough to post and Kudos to those with strong beliefs either way and tempered responses.

My simple thoughts on the matter:

Not sure where I stand as a whole. Was brought up Roman Catholic and educated through some form of Catholic based school. From the Christian Brothers in pre-Uni Forms to the Jesuits in my University days. All in all I never felt obligated to believe in the subject matter of the religious studies classes that are mandatory. For that I appreciate not being force fed the garbage that some Religious Conservatives mandate as doctrine or God's Law.

That ability to filter out the Anti-Religious hate or the ability to be tolerant of other's Points-of-View is something I believe to be a significant gift from some Higher Power. We have these moments where we rally behind religious fervor or use our beliefs to justify action against another 'differing' religious opinion. Almost in every historical religious action against another differing religion there has been an economics based rationale behind the scenes driving the Leaders. However, the masses were rarely given that bit of information but were bombarded with fear of the unknown, or PnP that took their beliefs completely out of context to create that fervor. Yet those leaders all believe or lead their People to believe that Divinity Made Me Do It.

You throw in religious stories of Fire and brimstone reigning down upon those who do not adhere to the same beliefs that are written in a book and you have the perfect recipe for intolerance, hatred and the current struggle we see in certain parts of the world today.

Scientifically to explain God's existence or to mathematically explain the reasons for life are subjects well beyond my abilities and I can not even make a guess. But now and again you experience that beautiful something: a picture, a smell, or become completely consumed by emotions. Stop and think to yourself... It's pretty freakin' cool that I can have that moment that impacts my life even for an insignificant period of time... I am not religious in any way but those spiritual times have got to have been designed by something significantly powerful.

Again, great discussion.

 

[DeletedUser]

This was a fun read, and I just wanted to point one thing out to the anti-evolutionary people, MAN NEVER CAME FROM MONKEYS, they have a shared ancestor, this is extremely common knowledge, so people bringing up that we didn't come from monkeys are making a completely pointless point.

For you religious folk, I hope you realize that evolution can fit in with the biblical explanation of the first six days. Obviously people from that time couldn't tell time very well (people living until they were 600-900 years old). If you go through each day that god "created" it is an actual map of evolution, just millions upon millions of years as opposed to days.

 

[DeletedUser94957]

/me nodz
he iz right.
but I still made God.

 

[DeletedUser]

Religion is in no way shape or form an internal thing (at least for Christians and Muslims). Their whole premise is exerting their beliefs on other people. It is spirituality that is internal. Religion is a common belief that you share with others, while spirituality is your relationship with whatever higher power you may believe in. I know it may sound like a subtle difference, but it is actually a huge one. Many people have spirituality and despise and hate religion, while many people follow religion and have no spirituality.

@Soxfan most of what you mention in your post, is based off of emotion. This is the biggest factor in my disbelief. Humans are emotional creatures, emotions are derived from the brain through chemicals and electricity. Everything you feel can be traced back to chemical reactions in the brain. Almost everything in life causes these chemical reactions, and Religion uses the strongest emotions to control people. They use fear, guilt, and love. When people say they feel God's presence, it is an emotion, when they say God is telling them to do something, it is an emotion. People who act on emotions do not abide by reason or logic. That is why so many believers still believe in their God even when their is no logical explanation for it's existence. Every religious act is based off emotion: praying, crying, helping others, going to church, protesting abortion clinics, blowing themselves up. None of it makes logical sense, but it is all a response to an emotion, some stronger than others.

When you die, and the brain shuts down, the source of all those feelings and emotions is gone. People believe in a "soul" but it is really just the brain. When people have near death experiences and they "see the light" or even dream and see people, it is really just your brain. It is hard to contemplate simply not existing after you die, not being around to even think about how you died or anything, but it is what I believe to be true, and I have learned to accept that fact and live life accordingly. When people believe in an "afterlife" they make for dangerous people, thinking what they do here will help them there and that when you die it is not the end.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, the wise as false, and the leaders as useful. - Seneca

 

[DeletedUser]

Does free will even matter?
If god doesn't exist, then we have free will.
If he does, then we may or may not have free will, and no one will notice the difference because no one debating here is god.
Free vs. destined is only noticeable on the omniscient/omnipotent scale, because you or I will never know whether or not we have free will or not.

Don't even try this on with me.
My comment was nothing more than a joke.
I know how futile this thread is, that is why I won't post anything other than jokes or pisstakes of ridiculous opinions.

 

[DeletedUser]

He didn't. And why is god a "he"? Why would God have gender unless there are many Gods and they reproduce?

Because he, like every other living thing on this planet, is mortal.

That horsey can't move like like that, and that's a pawn not your bishop.

+100000000

that made my day !

 

[DeletedUser]

+100000000

that made my day !

Just wait until I get skype working again (and a new mic). That will make your year.

 

[DeletedUser]

Answers to the original topic:

>>>There is no evidence that the God exists, if he does I shall eat my own head?

Ans: There is no evidence of lots of things, mate, but you then mean they don't exist? Okay prove to me "Pain" exists. Or "Love". Or on a more "scientific note": Aliens? if you believe they exist or if you don't believe they exist.

>>>There is no heaven or hell, if there is I shall eat my own foot?

Ans: There is no heaven nor hell. They are just metaphorical notations. Heaven means if you do good, good comes back to you, If you do bad it returns to you, i.e. hell.

>>>Arc is a myth created by the religion. If it is a true non-fictional story I shall eat my own hand?

Ans: Yes Arc is a myth. There was no boat. But its a fascinating Story that teaches you about life. Or it was a story of how man traveled different lands taking with him the animals he wanted with him?

>>>Adam was NOT the first man, unless he had a healthy sperm count and Eve was a super wonderwoman who could pop out babies at will, we would all be inbreds. If that is true I shall eat my other foot?

Ans: I am not the right person to answer this questions as I wasn't alive at that time. Rest are theories, and theories have flaws in them. And those flaws are easily debatable.

>>>Christianity is a fraud created by a few men in their mid 40's who decided to make some quick cash by convincing people to their own point of view and charging them for believeing in a segment of their imagination, if that is true I shall pat myself on the back and exclaim "Well done."

Ans: There is lot of difference in the Christianity that was preached by Jesus and what it is now. So I agree with you here. The current Christianity is some what some men decided what it is.

>>>I personally believe that Buddhism is about the only good religion out there that had not started any wars, well the major ones anyway.
Christianity - Crusades,
Islam - Civil Unrest in Central Asian countries(Constant war between different fractions).

Americans Believe there are only two/three religions in the world don't they? Heard of Hinduism? Jainism? Judaism? Taoism? Shinto? Sikhism?

and best argument on this is that religion does not preach to fight. The religious leaders do it for personal gain.

Crusades were fought to protect the elimination of Christianity, there is nothing written in bible that you have to do it?
Civil Unrest in Central Asian countries and other ancillary fights that are associated with islam namely the JIHAD, is also done, for personal gains, there is no mention in Quran about it, if there is then there is a severe misinterpretation.

What's your belief concerning the religion?

Ans: I neither believe that god created us, nor I deny it. We, with current facts, can never prove it, so its very vague to discuss that. But yes I believe in God. God is not a superpower wielding Morgan Freeman or Bruce Willis or Superman who will zap and everything is good and do zap and we all will die. God is what I feel, the knower of universal truth, the answer to everything. Why God doesn't solve all the problems on planet earth? Because he has no powers. Why we worship then though? I cannot answer for you, but I worship God because Man's actual aim is to be god, The knower of the truth, the answer to everything. And my aim is the same. Method might be different. but eventually all religion say the same.

 

[DeletedUser]

All of your crap is no match for physics and the string theory!