Aletheia's Bonfire

Discussion in 'W30 General discussion:' started by csiz, Mar 1, 2009.

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  1. csiz

    csiz Guest

    I know this has been discussed in the past, but I have to bring it up again. Aletheia's Bonfire is too good as it is here. Anyone that gets it, has almost a guarantee to defend against anything, provided the player actually builds catapults.

    I've seen it many times, any player with this item just survives assaults, plain and simple. Even the biggest nukes have no chance. Reducing 1000% to 500% would be fair. It would still give considerable advantage of actually building catapults, but not so much that it towers over other items. Because as it is, this item is far far greater than any other, so luck plays too great a role.

    And its not like the player has to build catapults non-stop to get this advantage, he would only need 150, which isn't much considering you would at most manage to complete 1k of each (spears/swords/archers) in the same time, considering a well upgraded village. And on top of that you don't even take training time from other buildings, it is trained seperately.

    Ofcourse when time goes on enough players have it to balance it, but those that get it early can plan ahead and use a catapult strategy in defending, making their defense virtually unbeatable and giving them an unfair advantage.
  2. Fuerza

    Fuerza Guest

    I agree with you there, however, it does add a crazy twist to the game.

    I find it quite exciting personally, as a few members of my tribe have it and they're nobling bonus workshop villages and just pumping out the cats. Very effective in our current war :icon_twisted:

    But it is crazy, can't a pure cat village with Aletheia's Bonfire destroy around 4-5 nukes?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2009
  3. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Yes it can survive 4 nukes, and taken down with the 5th I believe. But even with a small number of catapults this item is alot better than the rest, which I find silly. The items shouldn't be all equal but one item shouldn't be so far above the rest.

    Also imagine if everyone had this item and everyone employed a catapult defense, building perhaps 200 per village. It would be like strapping a bunch of pillows to boxers, they would rarely get a punch at each other.

    If there were an equally good offense item, I wouldn't complain, because even if there were alot of luck involved there would be a balance in the grand scheme of things. So the player in question, knowing he would face a catapult defense could make the choice of using an item effective against such a defense.
  4. dilbertland

    dilbertland New Member

    Mar 1, 2009
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    As the game progresses it will become less and less important. You can only use it in one village at a time. It's not going to matter much in a war when you're trying to fend off dozens (or even hundreds) of simultaneously attacks on tons of villages (while all your tribemates are doing the same).
  5. csiz

    csiz Guest

    dilbertland, even when you have 100 villages does it pay off to have the item, if you utilise it. You only need to have 200-300 catapults in each village, and since it can act in offense villages too that won't be a problem. Then when you detect nobles you just move your pally around. And given that this is a church world, all your villages are clusterized which makes it even easier.


    If your teammates have lots of catapults, you just give him your pally with this item.

    Doesn't matter how many villages you have, if you use this item it will always give you an advantage. I would say that rarely does it "not matter". So my boxer analogy stands.
  6. crowley625

    crowley625 Guest

    eh, doing pure catapults though is time consuming even with the bonus villages, and is very costly.

    plus, there is a weakness to the catapults even with the bonfire weapon. Cavalry still does a decent amount of damage to them, and they aren't easily replaced when lost.

    The best answer to it is to just make sure to hit more than one village at the same time and force decisions, and when possible take out the church villages first to hurt defensive capabilities of the target.
  7. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Crowley, haven't you read what I was writing? You don't have to do pure catapults to get a significantly better effect. So a slow buildup means nothing. You only need to have 100 catapults in your defense with your pally there and it will be better than if your pally had any other item, assuming a standard defense.

    If you assume a player would build more catapults per village if he had that item, then that advantage will shine through. Even if the attacker has an LC heavy nuke it wouldn't be enough to counter it.

    The bottom line is: If I get this item, I will exploit it to the max. Because it will ensure that my enemies won't be clearing me. And all I need is to have 100-200 catapults per defensive village. Those workshops are usually unused anyways in defensive villages. Unless the rules are changed. Then I might reconsider. Because as it stands now, there is absolutely no drawback from using this item.
  8. castro2man

    castro2man Contributing Poster

    Dec 1, 2007
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    well, it defently helpful and crazy, also it depends on how u use this tiem:icon_wink:
  9. crowley625

    crowley625 Guest

    oh, I agree it is crazy useful, and I make sure my tribe uses all their paladin weapons to full effect for defense, and yes the bonfire weapon can be crazy good, but I don't think it needs to be nerfed quite yet, as it is finally making people think of ways to use what has been a woefully under-used weapon.

    I'm actually playing around with a support-village build that capitalizes on this weapon and a paladin to deliver them quickly, but I've yet to find a ratio of Cats to Spears and H.Cav that makes me really happy.

    plus, I suggest having 200 cats with the pally for better results in surprise thwot-ings of attacks :icon_wink:
  10. Dwarven King

    Dwarven King Contributing Poster

    Jul 18, 2007
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    Meh, I really don't see what all the big deal over this is. I have my own defensive plan that is just as effective, if not better that does not require me to cross my fingers and hope I get a certain weapon.

    But I shall now tell as it is my little secret, though very common. ;)
  11. crowley625

    crowley625 Guest

    oh, I still have my normal defensive builds that I'm sticking with, but I am looking at taking one village and specializing it to test the maximum effectiveness of the weapon since I'm new to pally weapon worlds.
  12. ansov

    ansov Guest

    csiz what harm can 200 cats (with the weapon) make to a full nuke? also keeping in mind that you can have only 1 pally it isn't going to make any difference in the long term. i agree with you in the part that as an item, it's stronger than others but that's it. it isn't the miracle item that will solve all your defensive problems.
  13. quityelling

    quityelling Guest

    Weapons are easy to get, eventually everyone will have a bonfire. Then no one will whine.
  14. csiz

    csiz Guest

    They can also make a suitable counter to it, which will only enrich the game. Something like miezko's lance doing extra damage if bonfire is being used. Just anything where you can choose to use an item to counter the bonfire. Not making it useless but reducing its effectiveness to a normal standard.

    Why don't you run the simulations and find out, or better yet, go up against a player with bonfire and 200 cats. I have done both.

    The pally isn't tied to one village. And most players can see where nobles are coming from, if they can't they are either unlucky or stupid. And the pally can in most cases, if he is not occupied doing other things, move to the defending village, where you have built up catapults. So the "you can have only 1 pally" argument doesn't work for defensive items. It only works for offensive items.

    If everyone had one, then things would be equal yes, but if everyone used the item and moved the pally around to intercept either nukes or nobles, then wars would be stretched so long that there would almost never be any end in sight. Because we already have churches and a noble distance limit. But ofcourse if very few people actually use this item and the pally then there is only more power to those that do.

    Lastly, I want everyone that have this item to exploit it as they can. Then more people will come to the forums complaining about it :lol:
  15. crowley625

    crowley625 Guest

    you mean like how people complain constantly about being nobled out by better players or getting attacked and farmed, or getting gang-banged by 4-5 people from the same tribe to take multiple villages all at once?

    If that's the case, we need to also introduce a B&M section to the W30 forum.
    I know a tribe that could really use the space to talk about how unfair it is their family is getting owned by a group comprising less than 1/5 of their total numbers.
  16. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Crowley, complaining about skill vs complaining about luck are two different things. What I was saying there that because of luck players get a decisive advantage in defense. And if you have two equally skilled players, then the player with the bonfire will win, hands down. I'm not saying you should take luck out of this game, but you should reduce its effects to moderate levels.

    We have a system where there is -25% to +25% luck in every attack, but with the bonfire you are increasing that margin by 4, and the worst part is, that no item can counter it. Atleast not effectively.
  17. quityelling

    quityelling Guest

    The pally can only be effective in one village at a time. Villages not stacked with the bonfire will be just as easy to take as always. Try figuring out which village your opponent is assured to defend, and send an unescorted noble train to that village as a fake, use your real trains to take villages. Make sure they land at the same time. Fighting someone with the bonfire will cripple you if you don't play it smart. And that's what it's there for, strategy.
  18. csiz

    csiz Guest

    So you are admitting that anyone with the bonfire has an advantage? So much so that if I or anyone up against it aren't really smart, it will cripple our forces lol.

    Well ofcourse some get an advantage because of luck, and that is normal, but Bonfire gives too much advantage based on luck.

    I won't stop, until everyone realises that I'm right :icon_cool:
  19. quityelling

    quityelling Guest

    Not only did I never say that the bonfire was not advantageous, but I then gave you a way to counter it's effectiveness.
  20. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Is that your version of telling me that I'm right? Alright thats good enough for me :icon_biggrin:

    As for trying to counter it, thanks for the advice, I have it covered anyways :icon_cool: