Aletheia's Bonfire

Discussion in 'W30 General discussion:' started by csiz, Mar 1, 2009.

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  1. quityelling

    quityelling Guest

    I honestly don't know what you're complaining about then. If you already had a counter for it, then I don't understand why you would care if it was nerfed or not. Are you worried that it's not fair to people that can't figure a counter out for themselves? If so, why would you care if it affects your opponents negatively?

    As for my opinion on the bonfire, yes csiz, it is an advantage. No csiz, I don't think it's an unfair advantage, fighting players with the bonfire has not been that difficult, it just makes one rethink tactics. If you don't like a world setting, then don't join the world. Same with the people whining about the churches. It's not the same old Tribal Wars anymore dude, they're mixing it up and making it more fun.

    EDIT: My participation in this thread stops here. csiz, I tried to debate with you, and you come back and say that I'm whining and you aren't, and then order me to move along.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2009
  2. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Well I guess we don't agree on the point that it is an unfair advantage. And I'm not calling for it to be nerfed, I'm calling for an equal countermeasure, which is even more fun, and makes the tactical play alot more interesting.

    The countermeasures that are available right now are just not good enough. If I'm up against a good opponent that has the bonfire, and uses it well, then my options are limited. I'm assuming my enemy is equal in size or atleast similar.

    And as with all new settings, there is the possibility that they might be flawed, don't you think? Well IMO this item is flawed in this world.


    EDIT: quityelling, sorry that I called you a whiner, but I had to defend myself. I will refrain from being personal.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2009
  3. Dwarven King

    Dwarven King Contributing Poster

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    Precisely.

    That is why I have a defensive stretegy that I can use in ALL my defensive villages at the same time that is just as good, if not better, than this catapult defense that keeps getting praised. Don't believe me? I use the same strategy on world 13. It hasn't failed me yet. ;)
     
  4. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Dwarven king, if you want to stay ignorant to the Bonfire's awesome power, then thats fine and dandy, but when you finally go up against it, or use it, then I will say "I told you so" :lol:

    I'm not just praising it, I'm saying its as close to legal cheating as you can get. So I can't wait to use it.
     
  5. Dwarven King

    Dwarven King Contributing Poster

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    Ignorant to it? I'm just pointing out that I have a defensive plan that can hold up to just as many nuke (if not more) as the Bonfire AND in all my defensive villages at once. How is that me being ignorant? Please elaborate as I truly wish to know.
     
  6. Fuzimatt

    Fuzimatt Guest

  7. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Thanks for the report, hopefully people will recognize how powerful it is.

    And 6 hours isn't too much if you manage to stop a nuke or two, or perhaps even a noble train.


    Dwarven king, I can give you a few screenshots of simulations if you wish, and up there you have a fine example too.

    I give the attacker the LC item and alot of LC, which is the best counter to catapults as of now.

    Without Bonfire:
    [​IMG]


    With Bonfire:
    [​IMG]

    And there you only have a modest amount of 200 catapults. If you try this in your own simulator and give the defending pally any other item the nuke will break through on all accounts, even by a good margin. But with Bonfire it hits a brick wall.
     
  8. dilbertland

    dilbertland New Member

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    I have the feeling everybody here is being trolled. Either that, or csiz has never played the game to the point where real nobles trains are cheap enough to use as fakes, or has never actually been attacked by an enemy that does something as simple as coordinate attack landing time. The idea of trying to simultaneously defend attacks on 100+ villages where hundreds of incoming attacks (real and fake), all landing within a 30 second window, seems completely lost on him. When enemies are trying to take a dozen or so villages every attack wave, it won't matter if you have a magic button to make a single village completely invincible - you'll still lose the other 11.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  9. Seedsy

    Seedsy Guest


    All the items are a slightadvantage.. Thats why their there... But that advantage is limited, and everyone has it. Then it comes down to who is smarter with it.

    Look not to the west but to the east, that is where the sun shall rise.
     
  10. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Resorting to personal attacks to make your point? Thats weak. Fortunately for you, I take the high road, so I forgive you :lol:

    When the world reaches the point where most players have so many villages, then this item doesn't mean much. But getting there is a different matter. Right now, and for the next 6 months this item will be able to play a huge roll in defense.

    And the only thing you can produce is an exaggerated example where the item loses its value. Well in most situations you will be able to use it. And the rate of attrition of your enemy will increase, so much that perhaps by the end of the war with him you will come out as a victor, because of that item, and ofcourse your brains for using it correctly :icon_twisted:

    Oh and tell me dilbertland, have you been in a world with churches and the new bonfire where you have 300 villages, and been in a war? Lol, didn't think so...
     
  11. dilbertland

    dilbertland New Member

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    No I'm just simply pointing out what everybody else is, by the time you have enough villages to put it to good use, it's not going to be the end-all-be-all weapon. And I think that time has already come. By the time you have half a dozen villages, it's only going to help you protect one if they are all being attacked at once. How well you stack defense and support is far more important than this one weapon. Of course if your enemy is an idiot and only attacking a single village at a time, well that's another story.

    By you refusing to see this, I can only assume you're trolling and being intentionally dense. Of course maybe you truly believe it. If that's the case then I'll leave you to feeling invincible with your snazzy cat weapon and wish you luck. :)
     
  12. AK_iceman

    AK_iceman Guest

    Your tribe can support you with their paladins too, which can also be equipped with Aletheia's Bonfire. So if played effectively on a person under mass-attack, it's possible to support all of his villages right now with this weapon.

    I think the weapon does make a difference, but it's not invincible. Get used to it, and maybe build more LC heavy nukes.
     
  13. csiz

    csiz Guest

    I'm ready to present evidence for my point of view, what do you have? Other than trying to paint me as a troll...


    I'm not claiming its invincible, only that it gives an unfair advantage, IF used correctly. The unfairness stems from no other item having their toes where this one has its heels. But I'm also not saying it needs to be nerfed, but rather to have an appropriate countermeasure available. Going LC heavy and using the lance is the only option right now, but as you can see from those screenshots I posted, its nowhere near enough.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2009
  14. Dwarven King

    Dwarven King Contributing Poster

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    Ok, you want simulation pics, then I will post a couple of mine. Just give me a minute to re-size and everything.
     
  15. Dwarven King

    Dwarven King Contributing Poster

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    Here is my defense. (I only hope it isn't to big.)

    This first simulation is with the lance equipped to the paladin.

    [​IMG]

    This second simulation is the paladin with NO equipped weapon.

    [​IMG]

    What is the defference you ask? It's quite simple really. With your plan, you have to pick which of your villages you want to keep the most and put your paladin there and still lose nearly all of your troops and have your wall drop from about 9 to 11 levels and wait 6 hours to use your cat upgrade again. Leaving your village open to suffer the same fate as the others that did not have the paladin.

    With mine on the other hand, I can sit back and let each of my defensive villages recieve an attack and have plenty of defense left to withstand another two attacks and only lose no more than 5 levels to my wall with each attack without using a paladin.

    Now please, explain to me how I am ignorant for not wanting to use this little plan of yours?
     
  16. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Dwarven king, first of all, I never meant offense, was all in good spirits. But some others here have taken offense and are trying to make me out to be a troll, which was never my intention.

    Second, I don't get your explanation. No offense, but you have to explain it better to me.

    I only have to pick a village if there are nobles coming to more than one at a time. But lets assume this. Given that this is a church world and my villages are huddled close together, I will then pick my church village or my noble village (if that is under attack) so I can noble the village I'm about to lose right back. Also given that almost in all situations, if I have created 100-200 catapults in my villages I can stack them in the village I wish to keep, because they are so close together relative to the attacking village(s). The paladin can only go to one village ofcourse, so I send him to the stacked village. If a full nuke comes, or even two and I have stacked catapults, along with a normal compliment of other defense troops, then those nukes will be destroyed with minimal losses to me, and my paladin will probably be saved. All depending on the severity of the attack and my preparedness for it. But on average, the attrition ratio will favor you if you use the Bonfire correctly.

    Note that you don't have to use the Bonfire every single time so it will be effective. If you use it 20% of the time then you will lose considerable less troops compared to if you didn't use it, and on top of that your enemy will lose considerable more troops because you used it. Compare that to the effectiveness of any other item, and you come up short.

    Lastly, this secret defense you claim you use. Well if you don't tell me, and us what it is, I won't believe you. Being able to sit back while 2 or 3 nukes hit all your villages at the same time, and you can still defend it? Well I say its impossible, atleast on your own. You will have to provide me with evidence.
     
  17. Dwarven King

    Dwarven King Contributing Poster

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    But what if you have multipe noble trains? You can stack one, yes, but you will lose the others. Then your stacked village wont be stacked. If you noble them back, your defenses will them become spread out making you an easier target. I'm not sure about others, but that is how I would take you down. I would merely force you to spread your forces then. You would wind up stuck with one village unable to do anything. :p

    If you truly want to know, I use a 1:1 ratio of swords and archers.
     
  18. csiz

    csiz Guest

    Well, ofcourse if I have a noble train on each of my villages, which means I'm being gangbanged, then I won't stand a chance. Not even using Bonfire correctly. But your defense wouldn't do any better in that situation, no defense could.

    They main point is attrition. Using Bonfire you are sure to lose less than your opponent, however you look at it. Using other items will also give you such a boost, but that boost is nowhere near the effectiveness of the Bonfire.

    If you ask veteran players, with millions of points and alot of wars under their belt, then a 1:1 ratio of swords and archers isn't the best defense. It might be best in theory or on paper, but its not best in reality. The main reason is that most people will use LC heavy nukes. The second reason is that it takes alot longer to build.

    Also, if you are faced with two choices of players to go up against. You know one has bonfire and builds catapults along with all the other troops, the other doesn't have bonfire. They are equally active and skilled. Their villages are essentially equal in build and points. Which one would you go after?
     
  19. Badlapje

    Badlapje Guest

    bonfire is nice, but not as awesome as you make it out to be.

    First of all you are not using a fair defense. You say that bonfire with 200 cats can kill a nuke but it can't, your simulation uses 5k spears, 5k swords and 2k archers.
    Second of all: like others pointed out: you can only have one bonfire / person. So even with your tribesmates sending theirs you only have an advantage in the beginning of the game (and that is assuming all of them have it AND send it). This means that two things are possible:
    1. your tribesmates are vulnerable to attacks.
    2. your other villages are vulnerable to attacks. That is why scouts exist.

    The bonfire basically alters the strategic options of the game by making it possible to plausibly queue troops in the three troop buildings at the same time, even in D villas (up till the bonfire that was only possible in O villas). This enriches the game imo.

    Also: the larger a player is the harder it is to use this item effectively, i'm now at 24 villas and for me to cover each villa i'd need pretty much everyone in my tribe to send their pally to me (ain't gonna happen). Once i'm up to 100 villas that is no longer possible at all + even if it were the frontline is likely so big that it is not easy to switch the pally and cats around meaning i'd leave myself wide open if i build to many cats in my D villas.

    Clusters hardly affect this, if you think they do you're just plain wrong.
     
  20. csiz

    csiz Guest

    badlapje, doesn't matter what defense I use in simulations, its the relative boost that matters. The relative boost of Bonfire is far far greater than any other item, which is why I'm talking about this. Ofcourse the effectiveness of any item is reduced by time, that is equal across the board for all the items. But no matter what, Bonfire's effectiveness is head and shoulders above the other items.

    Its ok to have some items better than others, and I've said before that having another item, an offense item that can counter Bonfire will solve any issues I have. And having this counter item will also enrich the game, but at the same time put balance back into the game.

    And I can promise you one thing, those that have had the bonfire from the start have had a huge advantage defensively. Its this starting advantage that is unfair. Because the opposing tribe, that knows about you having this item, has limited or no options in defeating you. This advantage will diminish in time as you get more villages, but it will most likely have saved you from being nobled out of the game at the early stage. That is IF you actually used it.