God Vs Darwin.

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DeletedUser

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Trying to prove someone's religion is wrong?

Get it through your thick head that you're about as likely to change their views on religion as they are to change your own position, and instead of carrying on like an belligerent little shit, just respect the fact that many choose to follow a religion regardless of how sure you are of your own viewpoints.
 

DeletedUser

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mattypoole said:
Trying to prove someone's religion is wrong?

Get it through your thick head that you're about as likely to change their views on religion as they are to change your own position, and instead of carrying on like an belligerent little [deleted], just respect the fact that many choose to follow a religion regardless of how sure you are of your own viewpoints.
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If that was directed at me, just ease off. I'm not trying to "prove" someone's religion as wrong. However, when someone uses scripture to "prove" the falseness of Evolution, you better damn well believe that I will respond and point out the fallacy of the scriptures. Scripture is evidence of nothing except man's penchant for story-telling. Believing scripture is one thing. If that is what floats your boat, by all means, go for it. But, using it as factual evidence of just about anything is asinine. It is not fact. It is faith. Two very, very different terms. I don't use faith to back up my comments. I use facts.

I have no doubt that my comment will not sway that person from their religious beliefs. However, I see you not jumping down that person's throat for failing to "[g]et it through [their] thick head that [they're] about as likely to change [my] views on religion as [I am] to change [their] own position." So, before you go off all half-cocked and start swearing at me for "being belligerent," maybe you should check your own belligerence first, and realize that offering scripture for evidence opens the door to those scriptures to be refuted with evidence. In this case, the evidence used to refute scripture, clay doesn't ejaculate, a necessary function for it to reproduce according to those same scriptures.
 

DeletedUser

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mattypoole said:
Trying to prove someone's religion is wrong?

Get it through your thick head that you're about as likely to change their views on religion as they are to change your own position, and instead of carrying on like an belligerent little shit, just respect the fact that many choose to follow a religion regardless of how sure you are of your own viewpoints.
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Then let me ask you, what is the difference between saying:

1. "No, you are wrong, because Darwins studies showed/indicated to us that..."

2. "No, you are wrong, because the Bible/Qur’aan/Holy Scipt tellsus that..."

Tell me that, and then tell me why you are telling us that we are 'belligerent little shits'.
 

DeletedUser

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pyker42 said:
How does something made of clay ejaculate?
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According to the koran, when god breathed from his own soul into adam (clay), he gets alive.
As TeBirkis said, this is just a religious point of view. However gods acts can not be proven or disproven by science, as we call him omnipotent, so he should be able to make out of clay something alive. And our imagination is far to low to imagine something like god, and his acts...So asking such questions as ''if we call god omnipotent can he create something stronger than himself?''
Anyway, whether now nor in future man will be able to prove gods existens or disprove it.
So I mind quote myself again.

But if god exists, what does he expects from us? Being nice to humans, animals & our planet (universe in bigger apect) and pray to him. I think people dont really need to have belief in god to be nice it's pretty much logical. If you ain't nice to others, they ain't to you, simple as that. But if god let's us burn in hell even if we were nice just because we didn't pray to him I think he's an idiot in that case. So I myself always try to be nice to ppl and so on and don't pray to god. I believe this kind of lifestyle is profitable wheter god exists or not.
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'Nuff said, I don't really care that god exists or not, as I found my own way of living that is profitable in both situations.
 

DeletedUser

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Shinin(G) Angel said:

According to the koran, when god breathed from his own soul into adam (clay), he gets alive.
As TeBirkis said, this is just a religious point of view. However gods acts can not be proven or disproven by science, as we call him omnipotent, so he should be able to make out of clay something alive. And our imagination is far to low to imagine something like god, and his acts...So asking such questions as ''if we call god omnipotent can he create something stronger than himself?''
Anyway, whether now nor in future man will be able to prove gods existens or disprove it
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Yeah, I read that part, too. Still, it doesn't disprove anything, nor does it prove anything else. Using scripture to disprove evolution is like using The Wizard of Oz to prove tornadoes are bad.
 

DeletedUser

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pyker42 said:
Yeah, I read that part, too. Still, it doesn't disprove anything, nor does it prove anything else. Using scripture to disprove evolution is like using The Wizard of Oz to prove tornadoes are bad.
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I agree with you, cause it's a belief and it's nothing proved, just written in the koran. Some people believe it, others do not. I've never said it disproves the evolution theory or vice versa.
 

Nauzhror

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If so, then why are we the only species capable of talking, inventing, science... development...
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Who says we are?

We're certainly not the only species capable of talking, in fact most animals talk, just not in a language we understand, no different than the many different human dialects really. (ie. a human from Africa who speaks farsis is no less understandable than a dog that barks to tell you what it wants if you don't know farsis.)
 

DeletedUser84497

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God Vs Darwin response

Now, a few facts... i will take christianity as an example, as it is the biggest religion of the world.

However, the bible still is 1 unit... fits perfectly...

Hence the reason it has been edited/re-written hundreds of times. None more so than by Rome, who previously ruled their lands much through controlling worship of previous and now " heathen " religions. It still has boatloads of contradictions and holes that other religions and keep pointing out in debates.

And then of course the idea of there being a 'GOD' who is devine, and basicly has superpowers...created the world in 7 day's, and gave us life...
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1. If God is what is claimed by religion, then there is no need for proof, that is the point of faith. The lone believer who truly believes they have been touched, will see this as fact. There are true believers, don't doubt that

2. Believers would say that miracles, biological complexities, and sheer numbers of believers are all the evidence needed

3. Please see above two answers, Harry Potter is clearly not real. He has an admitted creator(author), debunking that idea, and also has many more powerful wizards around him, also making comparisons ridiculous

If 2000 years ago harry potter was walking around doing magic tricks... that would have turned into a religion as well.
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4. No he'd be dead and burned at the stake. Do not underestimate the power of social creatures capable of advanced reasoning

5. Do not doubt that God/Alla/Odin/Zeus are not real. Are they what believers claim(ed). I personally doubt it. They are real regardless. Evidence of wars, and lives being controlled or guide in their names is all the proof needed. Is hate, love, jealousy any less real. God does exist.

6. Atheists are not a religion, the are the absence of religion. Though by putting a label on themselves it is not too much different.


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On to darwin...

We have a rare combination of advantages. That over time gave us an incredible edge, and allowed us time to evolve & survive the more difficult environments that kept many other species at lower / non growth rates in their evolution.
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1. Social creatures usually have advantage over non-socials in terms of population growth and communication complexities, both are extremely advantageous for dominating a geographical location.

2. Opposable Thumbs

3. Larger than most that had the above two advantages

4. Few creatures are as capable as we of moving on ground, in water and climbing

5. Year round birthing


Please give your view on things.

I have a couple of observations/queries:

1. If God is all powerful/knowing/omnipotent, what risk was there in letting Jesus (who is God) die at the cross, knowing full well that he would rise unharmed and be welcome to everlasting life in Heaven.

2. Why does anyone worship Jesus, if scripture is correct, he was only a mortal shell for a divine presence know as God. His resurrection body was not recognized physically by his followers, indicating another body, and this body in turn died. So...we are worshiping a corpse? The Trinity was developed only fairly recently and even so is still just 3 aspects of one God.

3. By scripture alone, the use of fish symbols, cross, saints etc. are what Jesus and the old Testament have warned against. False prophets, worship of Icons, there is only one (hello!) God. The worship of Jesus himself violates most of the supposed teachings from scripture, as he is quoted, saying the power comes not from him but from God. Which he is quoted 22 times in the New Testament as mentioning in some form or fashion that God is the source of divine might, not he. The very very few otherwise are more likely a mis-translation, ie the way to God is through me, duh, if he was God.

4. We still know little about evolution and where it may take us. Is it possible for one of us to evolve to a God-like level, has someone else already done so? who knows. I can't claim to have the answers. I am sure that religion is wrong, God may or may not be real, but there is no way we who can't balance a budget, or keep from catching the cold, or kill a neighbor for $30 dollars, could be wise enough and all-knowing to anwer that question.
 

DeletedUser

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chinstrap said:
1. Social creatures usually have advantage over non-socials in terms of population growth and communication complexities, both are extremely advantageous for dominating a geographical location.

2. Opposable Thumbs

3. Larger than most that had the above two advantages

4. Few creatures are as capable as we of moving on ground, in water and climbing

5. Year round birthing
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Sorry, but what is your point?

That these examples could be a proof for a God, or the opposite?

Yes, they gave us incredible advantages, thumbs among as you say. They clearly origin from our former primate forms. Looking at other humanoid primates with thumbs, indicates that we sure had a common ancestor. Name just 5 other creatures, that are not primates, and got opposable thumbs? I'll help: The Panda. But others?

As for moving on ground, above and in water, that is a logical turn of events. Humans are not strong, we are not fast, all of our 'enemies' (lions etc, and pre-african creatures) was that. We where smart though. We figured out that trees could be a safe haven, and crossing water would be a handy way of escape in some situations. In time, only the ones with physical attributes that served these purposes would remain, and thus give the genes that encouraged swimming and climbing to the next generation, sorting out the weak ones killed by lion.

Our flexibility also made us able to year round birth, and also the cycle of women eggs. And thank God for that!

Btw, chinstrap, that was not as an answer for you, but more to explain some of the points you made, in a pro Evolution kind of way.


chinstrap said:
4. We still know little about evolution and where it may take us. Is it possible for one of us to evolve to a God-like level, has someone else already done so? who knows. I can't claim to have the answers. I am sure that religion is wrong, God may or may not be real, but there is no way we who can't balance a budget, or keep from catching the cold, or kill a neighbor for $30 dollars, could be wise enough and all-knowing to anwer that question.
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It seems to me that you have misunderstood something about evolution here, or wasn't clear enough.

One individual doesn't evolve. A flock does. A species does. Over hundreds of years, thousands, even millions. One individual wouldn't suddenly evolve into a God like creature (how would you define that btw?). It would take a flock etc. But the attributes that this 'God' creature/flock should posses, would have to be physically explainable. We cant suddenly do magic or miracles.
 

DeletedUser

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Just wanted to reply to this quote:

Then let me ask you, what is the difference between saying:

1. "No, you are wrong, because Darwins studies showed/indicated to us that..."

2. "No, you are wrong, because the Bible/Qur’aan/Holy Scipt tellsus that..."

Darwin's theories are based on tangible scientific evidence. The evidence is factual and can be proven to be factual (e.g. the differences between various species of finches is not an opinion or theory, it's a fact).

Holy books, on the other hand, are not based on tangible evidence. They cannot be proven to be factually correct or factually incorrect (or at least not entirely). I'm not saying they're wrong, but they cannot be used as proof, and definitely cannot be used to prove themselves.

I'm not trying to say that one side is right and the other wrong. I'm just saying that factual evidence exists for evolution, while the evidence for religion is based on faith (which some accept, and others do not).
 
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DeletedUser

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Since everyone seems to be referring to God as an omnipotent figure, I thought I should bring this point up real quick.

Definition of omnipotent: –adjective 1.almighty or infinite in power

If God is truelly omnipotent, then he by definition can do ANYTHING yet this is obviously not true. If he was omnipotent, he could easily create a world or plane of existance where no evil or wrong-doing is needed or takes place. If he just did this to "help us as a species and help us learn" then he is malevelont and if he was really omnipotent, he could create an existance where we can still learn without evil.
 

DeletedUser

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hagermaster2 said:
Since everyone seems to be referring to God as an omnipotent figure, I thought I should bring this point up real quick.

Definition of omnipotent: –adjective 1.almighty or infinite in power

If God is truelly omnipotent, then he by definition can do ANYTHING yet this is obviously not true. If he was omnipotent, he could easily create a world or plane of existance where no evil or wrong-doing is needed or takes place. If he just did this to "help us as a species and help us learn" then he is malevelont and if he was really omnipotent, he could create an existance where we can still learn without evil.
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Agree on this...There is no infinite power or energy source.
For example if I would create a robot or something alive do I have to be omnipotent? Why do people think god is omnipotent?
Omnipotence is impossible, and if there is a god he is not omnipotent for sure. Maybe near to perfection but not omnipotent.
Another way to look at it is this:
If god is omnipotent, he MUST have infinite energy. Infinite energy causes infinite mass. E=mc^2
Infinite mass causes infinite gravity G=mM/r^2
Infinite gravity would eat the whole world just like a black hole.
Can we disprove omnipotence like this? Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not sure myself. :)!
 

DeletedUser

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Shinin(G) Angel said:
Agree on this...There is no infinite power or energy source.
For example if I would create a robot or something alive do I have to be omnipotent? Why do people think god is omnipotent?
Omnipotence is impossible, and if there is a god he is not omnipotent for sure. Maybe near to perfection but not omnipotent.
Another way to look at it is this:
If god is omnipotent, he MUST have infinite energy. Infinite energy causes infinite mass. E=mc^2
Infinite mass causes infinite gravity G=mM/r^2
Infinite gravity would eat the whole world just like a black hole.
Can we disprove omnipotence like this? Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not sure myself. :)!
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You got a very valid point there.

But the problem is that a 'believer' wouldn't believe that sort of 'crap', which I mostly suspect is because he doesn't understand it.

Granted, it's not easy to understand either :icon_biggrin:
 

DeletedUser

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To me, the only thing god should be capable of is creating the galaxies and the entire universe, which by far doesn't mean he has to be omnipotent to do this.
Is there written in the bible or koran or other holy books that god is omnipotent? I myself have just read the koran but never seen that god said he's omnipotent. Someone religious mind show me a source I can look for?
 

DeletedUser

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In the bible I believe it says that God is almighty which I always assumed referred to him being "omnipotent". They basically portray him as being this guy who can do anything, yet that isn't true at all.
 
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