Religious Debate Thread

[DeletedUser]

Earth was NOT formed by god...

That cannot be possible as somehow, SOMEONE or SOMETHING created this world and universe(s). The reason why religion thinks of this oppositely is because they have the 1 'true' god in the sky to take care of them. I highly think that the universed formed on its own, naturally. I believe that Darwin's idea is correct that evolution and forming of the universe is correct. If I am not mistaken, mistook to another dimension with the religious people especial y Christians and Jews. The only way I would BELIEVE that this beautiful universe was formed by 'God', is if a time traveler sees a man doing all the work while his assistants plant everything. Otherwise, it is clearly unknown. Maybe it was formed by him, her or whatever it is.

Although I strongly disagree with every religion, I believe that there is proof that it didn't formed the universe.

 

[DeletedUser]

Earth was NOT formed by god...

That cannot be possible as somehow, SOMEONE or SOMETHING created this world and universe(s). The reason why religion thinks of this oppositely is because they have the 1 'true' god in the sky to take care of them. I highly think that the universed formed on its own, naturally. I believe that Darwin's idea is correct that evolution and forming of the universe is correct. If I am not mistaken, mistook to another dimension with the religious people especial y Christians and Jews. The only way I would BELIEVE that this beautiful universe was formed by 'God', is if a time traveler sees a man doing all the work while his assistants plant everything. Otherwise, it is clearly unknown. Maybe it was formed by him, her or whatever it is.

Although I strongly disagree with every religion, I believe that there is proof that it didn't formed the universe.

No one can prove God does or doesnt exist, yes, even with a time machine. You can simply follow what sounds more logical.

 

[DeletedUser52584]

No one can prove God does or doesnt exist, yes, even with a time machine. You can simply follow what sounds more logical.

... We have a time machine?

lol

 

[DeletedUser]

Whether we can adequately explain an emotion using language is irrelevant to whether or not we possess the same emotional capacities as a deity. You say that it stands to reason that a deity has more emotional capacity than a human, but you don't say anything as to what makes you think that. In my opinion, it is quite clear that we are just as capable of feeling an emotion to it's fullest extent as any deity, and super natural power does not mean more emotion, just more capacity to act on said emotion.

If one assumes that a diety created everything, it would not be a huge leap to say that the diety's creations will not be capable of the same things as the diety. Furthermore, it is still not a huge leap to say that the creation will be limited on the capacity of emotion when compared to the diety. You yourself have said that we project human attributes onto dieties. Again, not a large gap in logic to say that humans do this in order to 'relate' to the diety (as humans seek acceptance and fitting in).

No, they are split up because they were written in two different time periods by two different groups of people, and coalesced into a single volume by a third group of different people in a third different time period.

Or are you suggesting that no one got into heaven prior to the Resurrection of Jesus?

I'm merely saying that pre-crucifixion, the door to heaven was open only to God's chosen people (Jews). The new testament focuses mainly on post-crucifixion times, when the door was open to all and due to this, the ministry procedure changed.

Let me get this straight, you think it is ok to sit there and watch someone commit suicide and not do anything about it because you don't think we should be held to a high degree of morality? :icon_confused:

No, because our society doesn't approve of this. It just links with my diety and human on different levels point. It's all in the interpretation.

So basically, it was an analogy to say simply, "Look, you may not agree with my interpretation, but I don't want that to weaken my argument any, so I'm calling it out that because of your difference of opinion my argument will look weak." :icon_neutral:

Was that really necessary? I mean, as long as you are making good points, then your arguments will hold up of their own accord, regardless of whether or not I or anyone else agrees with your conclusions, correct?

Just for people who might be following along.

I'm saying your whole theory on the existence of other life revolves around the phrase, "God did it." You already admit that this belief puts you at odds with most people of religion, yet, it is clear enough to me that when the existence of sentient life on other planets is conclusively proven, this shall be the argument put forth by religion to reconcile itself with new facts that are contrary to previous doctrine.

And although I am using that argument as well, the fact that most people of religion will not make the same point until it has been proven is why I don't approve of the modern religion.

Couldn't agree with you more, which is why I found it funny that you were attempting to establish some sort of way for this debate to actually be settled. It hasn't been settled by any of the greatest thinkers in human history, what makes you think a group of bored people on the internet will achieve some sort of profound resolution?

Which is why, ultimately, your arguments will fail to sway me or people whose views are similar. At some point, for someone to accept your arguments, they must accept faith.

That has always been the determining factor in all religious debates across history. My theory is: You need your heart AND your brain to be working in order to live, so any life philosophy you follow should appeal to both. To me, where Christianity cannot be explained by facts and scientific proof, it makes sence to my emotional being. While this may not fit for everyone, it's good for me, and that's all that really counts.

 

[DeletedUser]

If one assumes that a diety created everything, it would not be a huge leap to say that the diety's creations will not be capable of the same things as the diety. Furthermore, it is still not a huge leap to say that the creation will be limited on the capacity of emotion when compared to the diety. You yourself have said that we project human attributes onto dieties. Again, not a large gap in logic to say that humans do this in order to 'relate' to the diety (as humans seek acceptance and fitting in).

I just don't see it. Emotion has a finite end whether you are a deity or not. There are limits for how much you can hate and for how much you can love, just like any other emotion. There is no reason to assume, whether or not a deity is more powerful than a human, that it can feel emotion more than any human. Nothing you have said will convince me otherwise, as you are asking me to accept things on assumptions with no basis other than your own opinion. (Granted, I have offered nothing but my own opinion as well, but you can obviously see where that is leading us.)

I'm merely saying that pre-crucifixion, the door to heaven was open only to God's chosen people (Jews). The new testament focuses mainly on post-crucifixion times, when the door was open to all and due to this, the ministry procedure changed.

Except, the acceptance is still narrowly defined, it just changed from a group of people who believe in God, to a group of people who believe in Jesus as having died for their sins. It still isn't opened to all.

Further, isn't the New Testament mostly concerned with pre-crucifixion? I mean, it is mostly about the life of Jesus which was lived almost in its entirety before his crucifixion, was it not?

No, because our society doesn't approve of this. It just links with my diety and human on different levels point. It's all in the interpretation.

Well, here is my interpretation, we are held to a higher moral authority than God is because we, as a society, find that unacceptable, yet God, willingly does this all the time. That gives us the moral high ground over God's actions.

Just for people who might be following along.

Again, if your arguments hold their own on their own merits, people following along don't need such a disclaimer, do they not? You are basically saying, "because my point of view is different, my arguments will suck to you." Regardless of your point of view, you can accept a well reasoned argument for what it is, despite possibly disagreeing with it.

And although I am using that argument as well, the fact that most people of religion will not make the same point until it has been proven is why I don't approve of the modern religion.

And what if I was to tell you take that logic one step further, what would your conclusion be, that if modern religion is wrong, then isn't all religion wrong? I would doubt that is how you would see it, even though that is how I do. Yet you expect me to do the same thing with your arguments.

That has always been the determining factor in all religious debates across history. My theory is: You need your heart AND your brain to be working in order to live, so any life philosophy you follow should appeal to both. To me, where Christianity cannot be explained by facts and scientific proof, it makes sence to my emotional being. While this may not fit for everyone, it's good for me, and that's all that really counts.

Agreed, to each their own.

As I said earlier, I do not take up these debates in order to convince others that their views are wrong, as that will meet with almost certain failure. I take them up to learn about other people's points of view.

 

[darkaniken2]

I've not read all of what has been said, and I don't care to read 10 pages on a very slow connection that barely works, but I do want to put something out here. Forgive me if it's already been said.

Doesn't the bible preach humility? I feel it is the ultimate act of arrogance to assume that humans are the only intelligent life in the massive amount of space we call the universe. It also seems rather arrogant to assume human are the only life form allowed to go to heaven. What makes us any different from a dog, a cat, or even a single cell bacteria? Our size? Our intelligence? Our so called 'morality'?

Another question I would like to pose. If God created the universe, the earth, and all living things, why does he allow solid, physical proof that contradicts most of the teachings of the accepted Christian doctrine? Why do his 'true' churches have to change their teachings every few decades to adapt to modern science? Should the 'true' churches have all of the answers right the first time, if they come from god?

I deeply apologize to and religions I left out, but as I was raised a Christian, I don't exactly know the deeper teachings of the many religions on earth. However, I'm fairly sure most organized religions that worship a single god have many of the same concepts, if not the same teachings.

 

[DeletedUser]

I've not read all of what has been said, and I don't care to read 10 pages on a very slow connection that barely works, but I do want to put something out here. Forgive me if it's already been said.

Doesn't the bible preach humility? I feel it is the ultimate act of arrogance to assume that humans are the only intelligent life in the massive amount of space we call the universe. It also seems rather arrogant to assume human are the only life form allowed to go to heaven. What makes us any different from a dog, a cat, or even a single cell bacteria? Our size? Our intelligence? Our so called 'morality'?

Another question I would like to pose. If God created the universe, the earth, and all living things, why does he allow solid, physical proof that contradicts most of the teachings of the accepted Christian doctrine? Why do his 'true' churches have to change their teachings every few decades to adapt to modern science? Should the 'true' churches have all of the answers right the first time, if they come from god?

I deeply apologize to and religions I left out, but as I was raised a Christian, I don't exactly know the deeper teachings of the many religions on earth. However, I'm fairly sure most organized religions that worship a single god have many of the same concepts, if not the same teachings.

Many people talk about a God of the Gaps. This teaching has become very popular among churches, and I do not agree with it... nor would I expect anybody else to either. However, I like to think of it as a couple holding hands. God is the creator of science, and they two fit together perfectly. There is a lot we don't know about science, and there is a lot we don't know about God.

The best example of this occurs in the first pages of the Bible. I know I've used this example/argument before, but it really is the biggest misconception. God does not say the earth was created in 6 days, rather he created the earth in 6 Yoms. The original Bible was written in Hebrew, and because the majority of the time, the word Yom was translated as day, this translation was also used in Genesis. However, thanks to not-so modern science, we now KNOW for a FACT that the Universe was not created in six literal days. Luckily for the Bible, all this does is change the translation of Yom from the common translation Day to the more uncommon translation of Age. If there is one change I could make to the NIV or ESL, it would be exchanging Age for Day in those verses.

So far, my limited knowledge hasn't managed to find a contradiction I haven't been able to explain.

 

[DeletedUser]

Except for the fact that the eras or periods are wrong with what we know of the development of the planet.

I noticed this in an earlier post of yours, but didn't have the time to comment then, and have since lost track of it.

As I don't remember the exact order of the six days, I won't pull anything out of my ass and use it, I just remember the first time you said it, something wasn't right.

 

[DeletedUser]

Except for the fact that the eras or periods are wrong with what we know of the development of the planet.

I noticed this in an earlier post of yours, but didn't have the time to comment then, and have since lost track of it.

As I don't remember the exact order of the six days, I won't pull anything out of my ass and use it, I just remember the first time you said it, something wasn't right.

There are two different versions that I've seen, one based on the stages of earth's development, and the other on the stages of the universe's development. I'm not sure which one I used then, but I'll have to find them and post them up here for you to analyze.

 

[DeletedUser]

... We have a time machine?

lol

Earth was NOT formed by god...

That cannot be possible as somehow, SOMEONE or SOMETHING created this world and universe(s). The reason why religion thinks of this oppositely is because they have the 1 'true' god in the sky to take care of them. I highly think that the universed formed on its own, naturally. I believe that Darwin's idea is correct that evolution and forming of the universe is correct. If I am not mistaken, mistook to another dimension with the religious people especial y Christians and Jews. The only way I would BELIEVE that this beautiful universe was formed by 'God', is if a time traveler sees a man doing all the work while his assistants plant everything. Otherwise, it is clearly unknown. Maybe it was formed by him, her or whatever it is.

Although I strongly disagree with every religion, I believe that there is proof that it didn't formed the universe.

Read carefully.

 

[DeletedUser]

Religion. Heh.

Im a VERY blunt person towards everybody i know, so this is not meant offensive or degrading in any way, merely my POV.

Religion imo is created by people who had a desperate need to get hope out of something while having nothing to go on, and thought up an imginary person to blame for anything gone awry since they couldnt explain phenomenons like thunder or earthquakes for example. Not all too long ago they thought up gods for everything, god of water, god of thunder, god of war (great game btw), god of a sore toe w/e. Nowadays we know whats causing alot of things that happen around us, its purely a careful balance of nature and not a god who has a headache and decides to punish a few disciples.

As said before, i seriously believe there's so much more that we need to study using science to know whats causing stuff to happen, and when new discoveries are made, yet another explanation is given that a so-called god who supposedly would be responsible for it, simply does not exist.

Second issue what makes me nearly despised of religion is the fact that even though all religions may originate from one basic source, we cant deny that 90% of all wars being fought is about... right. Religion. Religion is about respecting life, respecting human being bla, but the party is all the more greater when in some religious war more people are killed. Thats wrong no matter who you try and convince others that YOUR religion is the real one, the ultimate truth.

Its obvious i dont have a religion, and i tend to keep it that way. But why is it, that every sunday around 8am some *ssholes come to my door trying to bring me salvation, preach doom and hell if i dont see it their way? When i tell them im absolutely not interested and i wanna close my door, they stick a foot in it? That makes me not just annoyed, it makes me agressive. If thats religion, they may keep it.

In short? I think that if we're given another 200 years, mankind will have found answers to things we cant even start to think about now. What if all the questions we have now are answered with science by then, would religion be obsolete in your eyes?

Sorry for the rant, just had to vent it

 

[DeletedUser]

Religion. Heh.

Im a VERY blunt person towards everybody i know, so this is not meant offensive or degrading in any way, merely my POV.

Religion imo is created by people who had a desperate need to get hope out of something while having nothing to go on, and thought up an imginary person to blame for anything gone awry since they couldnt explain phenomenons like thunder or earthquakes for example. Not all too long ago they thought up gods for everything, god of water, god of thunder, god of war (great game btw), god of a sore toe w/e. Nowadays we know whats causing alot of things that happen around us, its purely a careful balance of nature and not a god who has a headache and decides to punish a few disciples.

As said before, i seriously believe there's so much more that we need to study using science to know whats causing stuff to happen, and when new discoveries are made, yet another explanation is given that a so-called god who supposedly would be responsible for it, simply does not exist.

Second issue what makes me nearly despised of religion is the fact that even though all religions may originate from one basic source, we cant deny that 90% of all wars being fought is about... right. Religion. Religion is about respecting life, respecting human being bla, but the party is all the more greater when in some religious war more people are killed. Thats wrong no matter who you try and convince others that YOUR religion is the real one, the ultimate truth.

Its obvious i dont have a religion, and i tend to keep it that way. But why is it, that every sunday around 8am some *ssholes come to my door trying to bring me salvation, preach doom and hell if i dont see it their way? When i tell them im absolutely not interested and i wanna close my door, they stick a foot in it? That makes me not just annoyed, it makes me agressive. If thats religion, they may keep it.

In short? I think that if we're given another 200 years, mankind will have found answers to things we cant even start to think about now. What if all the questions we have now are answered with science by then, would religion be obsolete in your eyes?

Sorry for the rant, just had to vent it

I can't tell you how many people have come into this thread and said almost this exact thing...

As for the very morals you just used to bash religion... please explain to me how they came to be. You will realize that its Judeo-Christian morals you are holding that cause you to hate war :icon_biggrin:

As for the people who come knocking on your door every week... Ask them if they know the use of Law and Gospel in real life. As soon as they say "no," or "huh?", turn them away because they aren't well learned Christians.

Also, to throw some irrefutable circular logic into the mix, God isn't manipulating every little thing that happens in the world. He created it and put in place the natural motions that we see today in Science. The only reason I am a Christian today is because I have come to that realization that you can neither prove nor disprove God because he exists at a higher level than we can comprehend.

 

[DeletedUser]

I can't tell you how many people have come into this thread and said almost this exact thing...

As for the very morals you just used to bash religion... please explain to me how they came to be. You will realize that its Judeo-Christian morals you are holding that cause you to hate war :icon_biggrin:

Now thats actually funny This would mean that people not practicing this particular belief as you say love war? Please elaborate? My moral says to respect my fellow humans cause thats what parents teach you, at least most of them do in this country. So finding it wrong to kill somebody is linked to religion all of the sudden? Then tell me what the holy war is about? It would also mean that as im not practicing any religion, i can kill a man without remorse or shame since only religion says its wrong to kill.. Hmmm

As for the people who come knocking on your door every week... Ask them if they know the use of Law and Gospel in real life. As soon as they say "no," or "huh?", turn them away because they aren't well learned Christians.

I turn them away without asking them if you dont mind, as im not interested wether or not they are well learned christians.

Also, to throw some irrefutable circular logic into the mix, God isn't manipulating every little thing that happens in the world. He created it and put in place the natural motions that we see today in Science. The only reason I am a Christian today is because I have come to that realization that you can neither prove nor disprove God because he exists at a higher level than we can comprehend.

So what you're basically saying is that people who start like 'God please help us through these times' or the best 'god please make that..........' are taking it a notch or two too far? Cause if every little thing isnt controlled by god whats the meaning of saying such things?

Im not entirely awake yet so forgive me if i misunderstood something, if so please explain

*edit* Basically you cant prove god exists, nor can i disprove. I agree on that. However you didnt answer the last question in my first post: What if all answers to current questions are given, would you consider religion obsolete?

 

[DeletedUser]

Now thats actually funny This would mean that people not practicing this particular belief as you say love war? Please elaborate? My moral says to respect my fellow humans cause thats what parents teach you, at least most of them do in this country. So finding it wrong to kill somebody is linked to religion all of the sudden? Then tell me what the holy war is about? It would also mean that as im not practicing any religion, i can kill a man without remorse or shame since only religion says its wrong to kill.. Hmmm

If you trace back the source of morals both in Europe, and then in America, they are directly derived from Christianity. Whether or not Christianity is true is irrelevant, but the morals we have today in the Western World are almost entirely derived from the teachings of Christ. War does have its place, and the Bible doesn't ban it, however, it is discouraged with all forms of violence. The Crusades, certainly not Christian. That's called a money/power hungry catholic church going crazy. As for the Jihad, I would actually argue that is similar to the Crusades in that it is skewed doctrine being used by a few elites to manipulate many. I suppose in the end that's still religion, but I would like to debunk the notion that it is specifically Christianity because our moral set is very much against war without a very good reason.

So what you're basically saying is that people who start like 'God please help us through these times' or the best 'god please make that..........' are taking it a notch or two too far? Cause if every little thing isnt controlled by god whats the meaning of saying such things?

Im not entirely awake yet so forgive me if i misunderstood something, if so please explain

*edit* Basically you cant prove god exists, nor can i disprove. I agree on that. However you didnt answer the last question in my first post: What if all answers to current questions are given, would you consider religion obsolete?

God has the power to do whatever he wants. And I do believe that he still plays a role in the world, and I can see that within my own life. However, I don't think he points at you when you wake up and causes you to stub your toe. Everything he would do would have to have a purpose in my opinion.

And I would say that there are a lot of cases where Christians, myself included, take it a little too far. Even playing football at my Lutheran school, we beat our Catholic rival this year... we said its because Lutheran's have it right and this is God's way of saying so, although to be honest, I very much doubt God played any more than a spectator's role in that game.

 

[DeletedUser]

If you trace back the source of morals both in Europe, and then in America, they are directly derived from Christianity. Whether or not Christianity is true is irrelevant, but the morals we have today in the Western World are almost entirely derived from the teachings of Christ. War does have its place, and the Bible doesn't ban it, however, it is discouraged with all forms of violence. The Crusades, certainly not Christian. That's called a money/power hungry catholic church going crazy. As for the Jihad, I would actually argue that is similar to the Crusades in that it is skewed doctrine being used by a few elites to manipulate many. I suppose in the end that's still religion, but I would like to debunk the notion that it is specifically Christianity because our moral set is very much against war without a very good reason.

Thats crap. Its like hearing an Evangelical friend of mine the Pope (apperently, every single one of them) goes to hell, the the Church has this "conspiracy" all over again.

 

[darkaniken2]

If you trace back the source of morals both in Europe, and then in America, they are directly derived from Christianity. Whether or not Christianity is true is irrelevant, but the morals we have today in the Western World are almost entirely derived from the teachings of Christ. War does have its place, and the Bible doesn't ban it, however, it is discouraged with all forms of violence. The Crusades, certainly not Christian. That's called a money/power hungry catholic church going crazy. As for the Jihad, I would actually argue that is similar to the Crusades in that it is skewed doctrine being used by a few elites to manipulate many. I suppose in the end that's still religion, but I would like to debunk the notion that it is specifically Christianity because our moral set is very much against war without a very good reason.



God has the power to do whatever he wants. And I do believe that he still plays a role in the world, and I can see that within my own life. However, I don't think he points at you when you wake up and causes you to stub your toe. Everything he would do would have to have a purpose in my opinion.

And I would say that there are a lot of cases where Christians, myself included, take it a little too far. Even playing football at my Lutheran school, we beat our Catholic rival this year... we said its because Lutheran's have it right and this is God's way of saying so, although to be honest, I very much doubt God played any more than a spectator's role in that game.

So your saying that before Christianity, people just randomly went up and stabbed people? That seems a little off to me. What about the Romans and Greeks? They had laws against killing people, theft, etc. They did NOT believe in a single God, or in Jesus. And the romans ruled england at one point in time I do believe(correct me if I'm wrong), and the romans also copied much of Greek culture. So one could argue that our morals come from hundreds of years before the founder of Christianity's great grand father was born.

 

[DeletedUser52584]

How about this... On the off chance that all religions are wrong we just pick one that has the best lifestyle and happiest people. We should all be mormons!

http://www.xepisodes.com/episodes/712/All-about-the-Mormons?.html

I just dont like scientology because any religion that wants you to give them money is most likely bs based on the fact that they're most likely trying to exploit you. I mean do you really want to pick a religion based on how much sense it makes? None of them do so that cant be the answer. You have to pick the one with the best results and mormons seem the happiest.

 

[darkaniken2]

How about this... On the off chance that all religions are wrong we just pick one that has the best lifestyle and happiest people. We should all be mormons!

http://www.xepisodes.com/episodes/712/All-about-the-Mormons?.html

I just dont like scientology because any religion that wants you to give them money is most likely bs based on the fact that they're most likely trying to exploit you. I mean do you really want to pick a religion based on how much sense it makes? None of them do so that cant be the answer. You have to pick the one with the best results and mormons seem the happiest.

Are you insulting mormons? If you are, I'll have to beat you with a stick. The Mormon faith is probably the kindest, most caring religious group in the world. They are also, by FAR, the the most tolerant of other churches.

Yes, you can tell I have bias, and I was raised mormon, but do not follow it. Doesn't mean they aren't good people.

 

[DeletedUser]

I saw a documentary on the Amish the ones that leave all go smoke crack from what I saw. very strange wanted to let every one know

 

[DeletedUser52584]

Are you insulting mormons? If you are, I'll have to beat you with a stick. The Mormon faith is probably the kindest, most caring religious group in the world. They are also, by FAR, the the most tolerant of other churches.

Yes, you can tell I have bias, and I was raised mormon, but do not follow it. Doesn't mean they aren't good people.

No, that's exactly what I mean. If all religions are wrong you should pick one based on the kind of people it produces.